WHOA! What's wrong with this 1917 (keyholing)

[bladeswitcher]

Just bought what appears to be a really nice 1917 off of Gunbroker. Everything looks great, including the bore. Went to shoot it today and couldn't hit the target at all. Finally set up my stand at 25 yards and still wasn't doing any good. After a few shots I realized that I was keyholing bullets all over the target board. One shot was a perfect profile of the bullet! This was with M2 ammo, btw.

Got it home and took a closer look at. I still think the bore looks good, but I think the crown needs work. It appears to have a few nicks and maybe even a slightly rough edge to the crown. Is this enough to explain the scattergunning and keyholing?

WHat's my next step? Try different ammo? Have a local gunsmith try to recrown it? Send it to a military rifle expert (any recommendations)?


What makes this more aggravating is that I just sold a different 1917 in much worse condition because I wasn't comfortable with the fact that the bore looked like crap and it was counterbored. That gun shot 2 inch groups at 100 yards! Stupid me!

[jjroth]

lightly coat a spare bullet with "prussian blue" (@auto store).
gently insert into the muzzle abs wthdraw to see what mark are onr ther bullet. should show equal marks from thr rifling.

Also try lubing a lead rifle bullet and drive it through the bore to check the resistance should be equal or you may feel loose spot.

[tmark]

I'd be curious as to what the muzzle wear reading is using a bonified muzzle wear gauge. If you have a .30 cal bullet, drop it into the muzzle pointed end first to see how much of the bullet it swallows. If it swallows it past the cannelure, you have your answer. Excessive muzzle wear. A crowning job may help accuracy.

[kragluver]

In addition to the above suggestions, also slug just the throat using a lubed, pure lead slug. It should measure no more than .310 at the rifling. Keyholing can also be the result of a badly worn throat causing the bullet to "tip" slightly as it takes the rifling. I had a Lee Enfield with that problem. I tried everything, but finally ended up having to replace the barrel.

[bladeswitcher]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I need to come up with a lead bullet to try running down the bore. I'm really leaning toward the crown at the moment. I've ordered some muzzle laps and a couple of grades of grit. We'll see if that addresses the situation.

Here's a 180g CoreLokt at the muzzle:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d196/Bladeswitcher/cannelure.jpg


Here's the muzzle itself. When I look with a loupe, I can see a burr:

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d196/Bladeswitcher/muzzle.jpg

[joem]

IMHO it looks like you might need to have it recrowned and head space checked.

[Johnny Peppers]

Use a double-ought (00) buckshot to slug the bore with. Oil the bore and seat the buckshot into the muzzle. You can then take a cleaning rod and with steady pressure run the buckshot through the bore. This will let you feel any tight or loose places in the bore, and will give you the bore size.

[bladeswitcher]

IMHO it looks like you might need to have it recrowned and head space checked.

Other than general principle, what makes you suggest checking head space?

[RED]

I seriously doubt that muzzle is causing that big a problem. If the bore looks good it probably isn't causing that huge a problem either. Even a shot out rifle will not be that bad at 25 yards. I wish I could tell you what IS causing trouble but it would be a pure WAG. You might try to contact the seller and he might shed some light on the issue. What kind of ammo are you using?

I had a Mauser that had been rebarreled to 25.06. For what ever reason it would keyhole certain bullet weights but not others and it was a 1 MOA shooter with my reloads. It was a strange gun in that it would chamber new brass or neck sized brass fired in it. I tried full length resized, once fired brass (fired in a different rifle) and it would not chamber. I never did figure it out.

Maybe Jim K. will weigh in on this one.

[hagar in SC]

Is it severely copper fouled? The copper can cover the grooves while acting as a kind of lubricant making the bullet skid over the rifling. I woulld clean it really really well, it may take a couple of days with Sweets, Kroil and JB bore paste.

[Jim K]

While that is clearly not the case here, it is a good idea to bear in mind that 1917's were once dregs on the market and dirt cheap, so many were rebored, rebarrelled and other wise converted to other calibers. Most of those were also sporterized in other ways, but with the increase in collectability, some have been "restored" without changing the barrel. So finding one in something like .338-06 or .35 Whelan is not impossible. Of course, .30-'06 ammo will not shoot very well in such a gun.

Jim

[tmark]

You mentioned seeing a burr in the muzzle. If that burr is the one I see at the end of the muzzle (it looks like a white speck to me in appearance), that could be the problem.

That burr may be causing enough drag especially on the tail of the exiting bullet to offset its intended plane of flight resulting in a tumbling unstable projectile.

Just a thought!:confused:

[BruceV]

This is just a suggestion. But I had a nice Winchester M-1917 that had a sewer pipe of a barrel. It was truly ugly. With any kind of ball ammo it produced groups that looked like buckshot fired from a shotgun. Two thing improved it into a very good shooting rifle. First I cleaned it thoroughly. Then I took two toothpicks and used them as wedges to put upward tension on the barrel. I simply tapped them in below the barrel from the front so that each wedge put light pressure on from the bottom at a slight angle. The result was that the barrel was pushed up and to the middle of the barrel band. I then tried some factory loaded round nose 180 gr. ammo. The result was the rifle when from shooting 6-8 inch boxcar groups to 2 inch five shot groups. Even with the rough bore I could get four to five good five shot groups before having to clean the barrel of fouling. HTH. Sincerely. BruceV.

[chuckindenver]

id almost bet if you had the muzzle counterbored it would fix the issue, i see a big burr in the picture you have posted.
might set you back 50.00 to 75.00, but will likely cure the keyhole issue.
clean it well with sweets first..see if that works, before you cut.

[Lancebear]

Hey Chuck,

Can you take the burr off with a little Swiss file? Got a nick on a crown. Rifle shoots well though.

LB

[chuckindenver]

im sure you can,,but yea know, if it aint broke, dont fix it..

[snell]

I second the idea of a good cleaning first. Lots of these old soldiers have their bores really crudded up and that may be part of your problem. Take a look at this idea and insure you read the follow up notes from readers for more good ideas:

Making the Surplus: Homade Electronic Bore Cleaner (http://www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/index.asp)

I've used this on some of my more abused rifles and the inprovment has been remarkable.
Good luck :cheers:
Art

[Patrick Chadwick]

Looking at the photo with the bullet, the muzzle is not worn enough to cause such severe keyholing.

I have had this problem, not with an M1917 but with an 1891 Mauser Argentine Engineer's Carbine. The dealer warned me it was useless, and he was right - for factory ammo. Just like your experience - bad keyholing and just plain missing the target at 50 meters.

The answer, in my case, was to be found on P. 55 of Ludwig Olson's book "Mauser Bolt Rifes", in the drawing of the 1891 throat. Basically, the M91 had a real freebore before the rifling started.

So I measured it up. Sierra MatchKing boat tail bullets were 12 mm clear of the rifling before they touched the rifling! In this case, the bullet was being rammed into the throat at an angle (after considerable gas blow-by), and accordingly taking off in an unpredictable direction on leaving the muzzle. 174 gn flat base bullets, as used for the Lee Enfield, were better, and best of all were 180 gn round nose bullets from Hornady, as they offer the longest cylindrical section.

I think you have the same problem with your rifle. For whatever reason, it probably has a very long (worn??) throat.
Try the following - it is quite accurate enough for diagnostic purposes, and if you are careful it will give you a good idea of the overall length you will need later for the loaded cartridges.

Get a 1 meter/yard length of threaded brass rod. Something like 6 x 1 mm or the equivalent. Close the bolt on an empty chamber. The bolt must be cocked, otherwise the tip of the firing pin is going to spoil your measurement.
Insert the threaded rod into the bore and push it in until it contacts the bolt face. Run a nut up the rod until it just touches the crown (if you hold the rod gently while running the nut, you can feel it lift off when the nut touches the crown).

Now remove the bolt. Withdraw the rod about 2 1/2" inches. Insert a bullet into the chamber, and use another rod to gently push it up until it touches the threaded rod. Push up gently until you feel the bullet stop on the throat.
The threaded rod will now have been moved out a good 3 inches. The distance by which the nut has moved is the overall cartridge length you would need to have the bullet just touching the rifling.

You may well get a surprise, and see that the bullet would in fact be clear of the neck (as was the situation with my Argentine). If so, you have a very worn throat, as a good bore and throat will give a result where the bullet is still well within the neck when it touches the lands.

According to the measurement you get, you can either use a bullet with a long cylindrical section, or write off the barrel. It's about as simple as that.

Good luck with your measurement!

Patrick

[Patrick Chadwick]

PS. Using the method I have just described, my Argentine went from keyholing and missing the target at 50 meters to 3" groups at 100 meters - just by chaning the bullet - give it a try!

Patrick

[Harry]

I had the same problem with my P-14, including keyholing at 25 metres. Had it re barrelled. It's now a nice shooter.

[Fick_2141]

Have it rebarreled and call it a day. The problem is most certainly throat erosion. The CMP has new Criterion barrels for the 1917. I bought one at the Eastern Games for $190. They are beautifull.

[John Sukey]

Just a wqrning here. P14 and M1917 barrels were installed by machinery, not by someone with a barrel wrench. This makes them VERY TIGHT. The standard method of removing the barrel is to make a relief cut with a lathe just at the point the barrel joins the reciever. There have been cases of cracked recievers when someone removed the barrel without doing that.

[bladeswitcher]

I had the same problem with my P-14, including keyholing at 25 metres. Had it re barrelled. It's now a nice shooter.

Know where I can find a new military-style barrel for a 1917?

[chuckindenver]

i would avoid any smith that would want to cut the shoulder to remove a barrel,
that should only be done as a last resort.
likely you wont find anyone in todays market that will work on a 17 anyway.
however.
i have yet to see a 1917 with a cracked reciever ring, and iv had some that are stupid tight.
took my 225 lb butt, and a 5 foot cheater pipe to get them loose, not a crack yet.
as soft as a 17 is, id doubt that a cracked one from being barreled has ever really happened.
im sure, you can find a cracked reciever, but from having the barrel removed? not likely.
from having one installed hard? maybe...i doubt it, but maybe.
i have seen, a 17 with a crack at the sight ears, and a crack just above the bolt latch.
both on the same rifle that had been in a fire.
it was cracked by me, and not from removing the barrel, from removing the rear sight, and the bolt latch..
didnt notice until i went to clean up the holes for the rear sight, and and redrill the spring screw, then the little scrack showed up when i set it in my mil vise.
iv seen some crazy stuff done with a 17 reciever, and they always keep on shooting, from hot magnum loads to under loaded super high pressure loads,
one was so hot it made the brass flow back into the bolt face, crack the extractor, and stick into the firing pin hole.
i know own that rifle, as the guy didnt trust it.
i rebarreled it , made it into a 338-06IMp. never have had any issue since.

[Coal Burner]

Just for reference, here is a photo of the pitting at the muzzle on my CMP Salvage grade Eddystone. It didn't like HXP or Lake City, so I tried 168 grain Matchkings seated long and it averages just a little over 2.5 MOA. Target shows a couple of 5-shot groups at 125 yards. I have tried the same thing with a couple other 1917s with rough bores and they shoot surprisingly well, all less than 3 MOA.

[chuckindenver]

thats a nice group, with a rough bore..

[Dan Shapiro]

I have the same problem with a VFW return (Winchester). However in my case, it's a badly eroded barrel. You can see the pits. They literally tear the bullet apart as it goes down the barrel. Nothing but keyholes at 25 yards. At 100 yards, I have no idea where the bullet has gone. Too bad those VFW guys were more concerned with knocking back a few after firing a salute, rather than spend 5 minutes cleaning the barrel.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Coal Burner, try a long round-nose bullet, like the 180 gn Hornady or Sierra. The aim is quite simply to get the longest bearing surface you can.

Patrick

[Coal Burner]

Coal Burner, try a long round-nose bullet, like the 180 gn Hornady or Sierra. The aim is quite simply to get the longest bearing surface you can.

Patrick

Yup - that was my reason for moving up to the 168 grain, I just didn't have anything heavier at the time. My next step is to try some reduced loads with the Lyman 311284. They cast at about 205 to 210 with wheelweights, and they have a very long bearing surface. I also want to try a jacketed 180 gr round nose, and I may even pick up some of the Sierra 220 gr round nose to try.

My other two 1917s averaged about 3 MOA shooting 10-shot groups with my generic 150 gr handloads made for the Garand. So far I've only spent one day shooting them after the initial cleaning, really just shooting out the remaining traces of corrosion. I can't wait to get home in a couple of weeks and work up some loads, to see what they are really capable of.

Were these guns originally sighted with the bayonet fixed? All three of mine shoot about 8" above POA at 100 yds, with flat base bullets.

[Dan Wilson]

Problem with a muzzle wear gage is it will tell you absolutely nothing about concentricity of the bore at your muzzle.

The most reliable way would be to cerrosafe the muzzle end and mic it out BUT its probably going to end up with recrown and possible counterbore.

You may be able to do a recrown yourself if you have one that has a really good fitting arbor but a counterbore I would let someone with a lathe do.

Dan

[Patrick Chadwick]

Dan, who/what/where is Dirka Dirka stan?

Patrick

[Dan Wilson]

Dirka Dirka stan can, and is pretty much any of the "Stans" (I've been to Pakistan, Afghanistan and Uzbekistan) but can also encompass other exotic crapholes like Iraq and Saudi Arabia (which I have also had the misfortune to "visit").

The actual reference is from the show "Team America World Police" (I love that show)

Dan

[John Sukey]

I would ask is that bullet the one that's been keyholing, or have you been firing a boat tail bullet?

[bladeswitcher]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions guys. I sent the rifle to a gunsmith. This is what he told me:

Someone has cut about an inch of freebore where the throat should be. It looks very dark and I suspect it was done with a drill, but you have something like an inch of jump before the bullet will hit the lands . . . Just for a test, I put a breech bore gage in it and it dropped all the way to the handle without contacting any rifling. I then seated a 210gr cast lead bullet in a sized case just far enough to hold it in place and ran it in the chamber, and still did not contact the rifling. This bullet was sticking out of the case mouth over an inch.

Now, it's just a matter of finding a new barrel.

[Steve85569]

That explains why the bullet was jumping the rifling. Had a similar problem with a pistol. The cast bullets I was shooting needed to be resized. No problem now.

Let us know how the new barrel works out.

Steve

[John Sukey]

Chuck, just because YOU haven't seen a cracked reciever, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Now as for avoiding a gunsmith who wants to make a relief cut to remove the barrel, just WHAT do you plan to do with the old barrel? Isn't the reason for removing it the fact that it is buggered? If not, then why remove it?;)

Springfield Arsenal discovered cracked recievers when they rebarreled M1917's between the wars.

[Buntlineguy]

Had the same problem. Solved by
1) Clean with bronze brush and a good solvent.....About 10 times.
2) Do not use boat-tailed bullets
3) Use spire points set out as far as possible, but will still fit in magazine. or
4) Use a roundnose bullet such as Hornady #3130
Mine shoots just fine at 100 and 200 yards now