.22 Cal SMLE, surprise me!

[Bob Womack]

I encountered an interesting rifle today at the range. It was a SMLE that had been converted to .22 cal for the British government by a contractor. Now, being a Garand guy, that was new to me, but probably old to you guys, no?

Bob

[Hal O'Peridol]

I've got one, plus several other purpose built Lee Enfields in .22. Really fun to shoot, and ammo is still cheap......when you can find it. I NEVER thought I'd see the day when .22lr was not available.:mad:

[jimmybob9]

SMLE No's 7,8,9 were purpose built .22Lr trainers. Very nice...

The New Zeland military just auctioned off about 60 odd cadet rifles for price from 300-1200NZ each.

I have a Enfield 1915 22 SMLE IV. in .22Lr. Same same as No1 III except for the barrel and bolt head. Mine even has the cutoff and volley sights.

Nice change when you can by 525 round for less than $20. rather than $30 for 25

[Enfieldlock]

I believe 22 Enfields are some of the best fun you can have with your clothes on. I have four, SMLE Pattern 1914, SMLE No2 Mark IV, No8 and Brit No7.

[Bob Womack]

It was just wild to see this big guy spitting out little cracks instead of big barks. He had it on the100 yard range and it seemed to be great for target plinkage!

Bob

[Jc5]

Who was the contractor for this .22?

There were a number of private companies that converted them for the government, but there were also many gunmakers who made them for commercial sale---the latter were purpose-built and not conversions.

[Peter Laidler]

Has anyone considered a sub calibre insert along the lines of the barrel insert and bolt? I was thinking of something along the lines of the old sub cal adaptor used in the FN FAL/L1A1 rifle

[Bob Womack]

Who was the contractor for this .22?

There were a number of private companies that converted them for the government, but there were also many gunmakers who made them for commercial sale---the latter were purpose-built and not conversions.he quoted a two-name name.

Bob

[Alan de Enfield]

he quoted a two-name name.

Bob

Parker Hale ???????

[Bob Womack]

I think that was the name!

[Steve H. in N.Y.]

Bob, you could wind up being a Lee Enfield guy too if you're not careful!

Peter, newly made sub-caliber inserts along the lines of the Morris aiming tube were available here some years ago. The quality was not top notch and they got mixed reviews. Mine was not accurate at all.

[jona]

Bob, you could wind up being a Lee Enfield guy too if you're not careful!

Peter, newly made sub-caliber inserts along the lines of the Morris aiming tube were available here some years ago. The quality was not top notch and they got mixed reviews. Mine was not accurate at all.


Have one of those inserts also. Like yours, not very accurate. Came with its own complete bolt.

[Hank Stone]

Seems To be Many 22 Cal Lee Enfields.

http://www.enfield-stuff.com/regimentals/rifles/smallbore_trainers/index.htm


Enfield Smallbore (.22 Rimfire) Trainers

I didn't pay any attention to the .22 trainers until I stumbled upon one that was regimentally marked. I took it out to the range - and discovered that it was a LOT of fun to shoot. Next thing I knew I was chasing regimentally marked trainers...and along the way I discovered that there were quite a few variations of rifles and marks, spread among three distinct families. A few notes:

As early as 1883 the British Army was experimenting with ways to adapt service rifles to accommodate the .22 rimfire round for marksmanship practice. After the adoption of the Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield (SMLE) rifle in 1902, there was a need for a training rifle to conform as closely as possible to the new SMLE configuration. The simplest (and cheapest) solution was simply to rebuild older rifles into a new pattern of .22 rimfire trainers, a practice that continued until 1944, when the first purpose built .22 trainer - the Canadian No.7 - was adopted for service. A brief review of the SMLE family of trainers:

.22 SHORT RIFLE MK III
Approved 9th August 1912 (LoC 16291) for Land Service, this rifle was made up from Converted Mk II and Mk II* SMLE rifles (which were themselves either "long" Lee-Metford or "long" Lee-Enfields converted to "short" Lees). About 11,000 conversions were done by BSA, LSA and RSAF Enfield.

.22 RF PATTERN 1914 SHORT RIFLE No. 1
A wartime trainer approved 24th May 1915 (LoC 17320) for Land Service, this rifle was also made up from Converted Mk II and Mk II* SMLE rifles (see above) by boring out the .303 barrel and inserting a .22 caliber liner inside the barrel. Conversions were done by A.G. Parker & Co. Ltd. and Wesley Richards & Co. About 427 conversions reported.

.22 RF PATTERN 1914 SHORT RIFLE No. 2
Approved 28th April 1916 (LoC 17755) for Land Service, this is the first rifle made from up from an original SMLE Mk III. Again, the .303 barrel was bored out and a .22 caliber liner inserted. Conversions were done by A.G. Parker & Co. Ltd. and Wesley Richards & Co. Some 1,743 conversions reported.

.22 RF SHORT RIFLE PATTERN 1918
Approved 10th July 1918 (LoC 21675) for Land Service, this rifle is unique in that it used a dummy .303 cartridge as a holder or conveyor for the .22 rimfire cartridge. The .22 barrel liner was soldered into place after the chamber. About 975 conversions done by W.W. Greener Co.

.22 SHORT RIFLE Mk IV
Approved 19th November 1921 (LoC 24909) for Land Service, this rifle starts out with a used SMLE Mk III or Mk III* (like the 1914 Short Rifle No. 2, above) but uses a solid, not tubed, barrel. Total number of conversions done by RSAF Enfield unknown.

RIFLE No.2 Mk IV*
Same rifle as above; just a change in nomenclature adopted in 1926. This rifle was the principal trainer for the next thirty years and was widely produced by in Britain, Australia and India. Issued in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Ireland and India, a variety of issue and ownership marks can be found on these rifles. At least 30,000 conversions made by the various factories.

The next grouping consists of trainers from the Rifle No.4 family of rifles:

RIFLE C No.7 Mk I
The first Enfield built from the ground up as a .22 trainer and not as a conversion or retro-fitting of an earlier rifle - albeit built on a No.4 body and intended to mirror the Rifle No.4 as closely as possible. About 20,000 made at Longbranch, Ontario 1944 - 1950's. Unknown number of wooden transit chests also produced.

RIFLE No.7 Mk I
Although a No.7 Mk I, the British version is very different from it's Canadian counterpart (above). This rifle was a conversion of an existing No.4 and is interesting in that a BSA five-round commercial .22 magazine was welded into a SMLE Mk III* magazine to produce the only Enfield .22 repeater. These rifles were a special contract and produced exclusively for the Royal Air Force (RAF) in 1948. Total production 2,500.

RIFLE No.8 Mk I
An interesting hybrid, a .22 caliber trainer intended to be also be used in smallbore rifle competitions, this rifle was introduced in the late 1940's. About 15,000 produced at Fazakerley. Another 2,000 were produced by BSA Shirley in the 1950's specifically for New Zealand.

RIFLE No.9 Mk I
The last of the .22's, these are No.4 rifles sleeved in a manner similar to the WWI Pattern 1914 Short Rifle No. 1 (above). The work was done by Parker Hale in Birmingham 1956 - 1960. 3,000 rifles made specifically for the Royal Navy.


This list is not all-inclusive. The Long Lee family of .22 trainers is not included, nor are any of the .22 trials rifles. For books and other reference materials on these and related topics, pop over to the Tools section of the website.

[Bob Womack]

Bob, you could wind up being a Lee Enfield guy too if you're not careful!

Peter, newly made sub-caliber inserts along the lines of the Morris aiming tube were available here some years ago. The quality was not top notch and they got mixed reviews. Mine was not accurate at all.I know. Scary. Oh, and

"None shall pass!"

:lol:

Bob

[Mk VII]

Many unserviceable .303 barrels were recycled by boring out and lining them to .22. I've got one P-H did in 1948

[Minnesota Joe]

Anyone know where you can get replacement .22 magazines for the No. 7 (British)? You know, the little mag that was inserted/welded into the regular mag.

[John Sukey]

On the shelf right next to the budgies teeth;)

I believe the website had something about "Unobtanium"

[Minnesota Joe]

Yeah, that's kinda what I thought the response would be.:crying:

[n64atlas]

I have both the No.2Mk4* built 7/45 on a 1944 Lithgow NoIII* action and an insert for a standard SMLE NoIII*
I also have a 1941 .303 Lithgow to match it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/n64atlas/Trainers/P9080003.jpg
I believe the liner kit was made for Numrich in the 80's. That is where I've seen them advertized. This is the kit below. It came in the wooden tray.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/n64atlas/P4140071.jpg

[Peter Laidler]

That's the sort of thing I was thinking about N64Atlas. Any good?

And next.... is the N64Atlas anything to do with Norton Atlas?
Peter Laidler. Norton Commando 750

[Alan de Enfield]

Anyone know where you can get replacement .22 magazines for the No. 7 (British)? You know, the little mag that was inserted/welded into the regular mag.

Well I know a guy whose got some and selling at £80 each.
I was looking at buying a complete sportsman 5 rifle (with magazine) scrapping the rifle and keeping the magazine. The complete rifles are fetching about £16 - £25 each at an auction I frequent.

US$1.5 = GB pound £1

[Son]

Has anyone considered a sub calibre insert along the lines of the barrel insert and bolt? I was thinking of something along the lines of the old sub cal adaptor used in the FN FAL/L1A1 rifle


Hey, now that would be an interesting addition to my SAF target rifle! I wonder who I'd have to kill to get one of those! :madsmile:

Something that hasn't been said here about the trainers... When WW1 broke out, there was a perceived shortage of trainers so the W^D contracted out the conversion of older models and previously converted rifles to .22 calibre. Contracting the work achieved several things, firstly so as not to tie up RSAF and major military contractors production lines at a time when they were trying to meet increased demands for front line weapons. It also helped keep a few firms afloat as some were already in financial trouble in 1915- Westley Richards for one was on the brink of closure (documented on their website). It also ended up with some companies, AJ Parker and later Parker Hale (not the same group- there were a couple of "divisions" in the Parker family in the trade which had gone their seperate ways by this time- details available through google) thriving on converting and modifying rifles for various target shooting groups.
There were no purpose built .22 trainers untill much later on as demostrated earlier in the thread. Although the amount and type of markings varied a lot, a rifle with a 1916 build date and marked No2 MkIV would have been a much later conversion, possibly as late as the 1950's (working from memory here, please correct me if I stuff it up!)

[Peter Laidler]

Correct me if I'm wrong Son, but I remember L1A1 sub calibre adaptors being in service when I was in Australia. Is this what you need for your SAF target rifle? Will the SAF target rifle take one?

[Son]

Peter, I haven't been "in the game" that long- but assume they would have used them. I'll ask the Tiffy on Monday.
I hadn't even thought about a sub cal adaptor. Although I have to admit it would be a very desirable addition as long as it didn't hurt the rifle
The barrel looks to be the heavier L2A1 barrel without the flash eliminator. Still only 21 inches long, and would have to be single loaded- no magazine.

[n64atlas]

Peter:
Though I have had this adaptor for a few years, I have never shot it. It wouldn't fit the bore of my Lithgow, so I bought an Ishapor No1 MkIII* that had a bad bolt. I've yet to take it to the range. Too many 22 trainers, so little time :^)

As to the follow up question n64Atlas means 1964 Norton Atlas 750

[Tom in N.J.]

Sub caliber insert,.. Numrich made the famous '03, '03A3 unit back in the 60s. They also made one for the SMLE. It consists of a tube barrel insert, with nut at muzzle, and a complete bolt with .22 cal. bolt head. I have one stashed away somewhere.

I now see n64atlas' postings... I didn't even see page 2 &3 until after I posted...sorry! My .22 conversion unit is just like his.

[Peter Laidler]

The BSA No7 magazine saga is a bit like the L1A1 sub-calibre magazine too. Millions of the large outers, plently/sufficient (?) of the .22" inserts but none of the interface pressings to mate the two together.

Alan......... is the £80 you're talking of the complete No7 magazine or just the little sportsman 5 insert part? Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh!

[Alan de Enfield]

The BSA No7 magazine saga is a bit like the L1A1 sub-calibre magazine too. Millions of the large outers, plently/sufficient (?) of the .22" inserts but none of the interface pressings to mate the two together.

Alan......... is the £80 you're talking of the complete No7 magazine or just the little sportsman 5 insert part? Sheeeeeeeeeeeesh!

Thats what I said (or very similar anyway) - no its just the sportsman 5 mag that inserts into the pressing / outer magazine.
Repeat - inner magazine ONLY !!!

[John Sukey]

I often wonder what happened to the .22 calibre adapters for the L1A1. Did they scrap them along wih the rifles?
Other than the one I have, I have never seen any others on offer.

Oh while I am at it, can somebody explain to me how the British came to the definition of a "lethal barrel":rolleyes:

[Peter Laidler]

It's not a lethal barrel, it's a lethal, barrelled weapon. That means that it is a lethal weapon that has a barrel. A bit like a PIAT........... that hasn't got a barrel. Don't ask us, we're all confused!

Hundreds of the sub cal adaptors were fixed permanently into the actual L1A1 rifles due to the fact that once the barrel bulged, it was impossible to remove it from the rifle so the whole kit stayed put! Another rifle was demanded to replace the now fixed .22" version. The now permanent .22" rifle was marked with a painted red band around the muzzle and stayed as a .22.

This was the only way that you could obtain one of the storeage boxes for the kits because the box was a NP (Not provisioned) part for some reason and it was only when the barrel was bulged into the rifle that the sub cal assembly moved from the box to the rifle...... leaving the box redundant.

When the L1A1 was withdrawn, hundreds of .22" L1A1;s remained behind for many, many years until they went too. To the great scrap yard in the sky. The H&K made L1A1 kits were identical to the H&K FN variant except for the magazine cases. The UK MoD .22" magazines were made heavier to replicace a filled 7.62mm magazine. However, the recoil of the .22" just didn't quite replicate the recoil of its bigger brother, especially while wearing only a thin shirt or no shirt at all.

There seems to be plenty of .22" sub cal kits around but, alas, no magazines, even the FN type.

Maybe an article about the sub cal kit wouldn't go amiss. So, to start it off. I know we had them in Australia but can't recall having them in NZ. The first question is this. Did you have them in NZ? Did you have them in Canada?

[nzl1a1collector]

Hey, now that would be an interesting addition to my SAF target rifle! I wonder who I'd have to kill to get one of those! :madsmile:

You would have to be mad to buy it, but Guncity has a L12A1 barrel, breech assembly and one magazine for NZ$1500.

[jimmybob9]

L1A1 subbies were around in Australia still in Use by cadet units in the late 80's - mid 90's when I was involved in training the little bastards. Still about 40% went on to joining the reserves or full time forces, including some in the army's teeth units.

With the gun laws changing many cadet units topped using firearms altogether as a PR exercise. Still my cadet unit had around 250 of the SLR .22 conversions and many more in the racks that just sat there.

They probably all ended up in the scrap heap as they couldn't be sold to the public for being semiautomatics. Wish I had one now. Excellent for knocking off rabbits

[jona]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/440080964_c2ccf90ef2_b.jpg

Picked up this L1A1 insert kit from a friend in Canada.
Have yet to try it out. It has never been used.

[Peter Laidler]

Wow....., even I haven't seen a brand new one. Seen a million old tatty ones ............

[nzl1a1collector]

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/173/440080964_c2ccf90ef2_b.jpg

Picked up this L1A1 insert kit from a friend in Canada.
Have yet to try it out. It has never been used.

Very nice British issue L12A1 conversion kit.


Here's the Canadian version of the L12A1 conversion kit (sorry I can't remember who these pics belong to).
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p236/nzl1a1collector/conversionkit2.jpg

Why 'Canadian' rather then 'British' check out the parts listing, the Canadian's have given a couple of components Canadian NSN's.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p236/nzl1a1collector/conversionkit3.jpg

Here's the typical parts listing for the British kits.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p236/nzl1a1collector/L12A1CloseupofBreechBlock.jpg

[Amatikulu]

Gentlemen, these pictures of pristine kits are great information for collectors. my eyes will be peeled in future for anything resembling them at a gun show.

I had no idea what to expect

[nzl1a1collector]

Gentlemen, these pictures of pristine kits are great information for collectors. my eyes will be peeled in future for anything resembling them at a gun show.

I had no idea what to expect

What to expect.............. to pay anywhere between USD$1200 - $1800 for a set. :yikes:

[jona]

nzl1a1collector:

All were from H & K, so do not think there is any difference between British or Canadian issue.

[Peter Laidler]

According to the parts lists, the Canadian barrel is different (Canadian made, 21-864-5570), as is the box (again, Canadian made 21-864-5569) Whereas the UK/Australian/NZ(?) kits are all from H&K with German 12 NATO codes, such as 12-147-6955 for the H&K barrel.

Strange really because the case, albeit unpainted, looks the same and by definition, the barrels MUST be the same!

[nzl1a1collector]

All the kits were made by H&K originally for the FAL Rifle (metric magazines) but a number were converted with inch magazines and designated L12A1.

The Canadians called the kit:-
1005-21-864-5568 (also 6920-21-864-5568)
ADAPTER, sub-calibre, 7.62 mm, C1A1


The Poms/Aussies/Kiwis called the kit:-
6920-12-147-6954
CONVERSION KIT, 7.62 mm rifle, 0.22 in calibre, L12A1


The Canadian's redesignated a number of components, weather they were actually made in Canada is uncertain they might of just been 'sourced' through Canada, hence the designation change.

[Peter Laidler]

The NSN make-up is quite strict and the nationality designator, such as 99 or 13 or 21 or 12 etc indicates Country of origin. This would indicate that the origin of the Canadian barrel and box is Canada.

However, errors have occurred, especially with nations that possessed 7.62 and .303 Brens....., who would put their own originator country by the part.

The L12 sub cal kit boxes were VERY hard to acquire and never available as a spare part. As I mentioned earlier,in the UK, the only way one would be available was when the barrel bulged into and stayed in the rifle.

Good thread and loads of useful info is coming out here. Maybe it should be put into the FAL forum.

Talking of which, there is a .22" Imbel FAL, based on the FN but manufactured as a .22" rifle. Do any of the internal parts or magazines interchange with the L12 sub-calibre kit?

[Sunray]

"...the best fun you can have with your clothes on..." Never been Armoured Recce have you?

[harry mac]

"...the best fun you can have with your clothes on..." Never been Armoured Recce have you?
I have. What mob were/are you? I was 13th/18th / Light Dragoon.

[Sunray]

"...No. 8 and Brit No. 7..." Neither are an SMLE. Only a Nno. 1 Mk whatever is an SMLE. A No. 8 is a purpose built post war .22 target rifle on a No. 4 Rifle action. A No. 7 looks like a No. 4, but in .22 LR. (Tack drivers that command serious money these days.) There were .22 LR No. 1's though.
Which one did you see?
"...replacement .22 magazines for the No. 7..." Only there for show and to catch spent cases. The No. 7 is a single shot. The follower acted as a feed ramp, but the mags don't hold anything.
"...What mob were/are you?..." Affiliated with the Governor General's Horse Guards in Canada. 30ish years ago. Commanded the Cadet Corps. One of 'em went on to Command the Regm't.

[A square 10]

and then there were these : converted by bonehill for the society of minature rifle clubs .....

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/Asquare10/mikesrifles2078.jpg
http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/Asquare10/mikesrifles2079.jpg

but alas mine got converted here again to a 12ga trap gun , which i use regularly

http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r188/Asquare10/IMGP0001-4.jpg

[Peter Laidler]

Woweeeeeee. What a beautiful pece of wood. What is it? Is it an oak type, cut from a thin bough, down the grain? It's lovely

[my72jeep]

Longbranch here in Ont. made them for the Canadian Goverment called the #7 I have 5 of them in my unit gun lock up.

[Longshaor]

I have a Lithgow No. 2 Mk IV converted in 1950 from a No 1 Mk III built in 1940. I was told by the gent I bought it from that the barrel was solid, i.e. not a kit liner. From this thread it sounds like he was wrong about that, is there any way to tell?

[Trilux]

You would have to be mad to buy it, but Guncity has a L12A1 barrel, breech assembly and one magazine for NZ$1500.

I bought that kit but I didnt pay anywhere near their asking price. Was less than half.
Damn good fun to shoot and it works flawlessley, it eats any ammo I stuff into the mag, I use it for bunnies regularly with the SUIT sight.

Ive just bought an SMLE Sht.22 MkVI so we'll see how that stacks up shortly.

[enfield303t]

I have a No4 converted to .22 and last week took possession of a No 8 that came via New Zeland, I paid too much but I wanted one and know they are going to get more expensive with time, like all good Enfields. The 8 had a fair amount of "dings" but nothing serious and was in overall good + condition. Like the 4 conversion it shoots very well and yes cheap to shoot. A friend of mine shot the 8 last week before I got it and said it was a real "tack driver". The friend I bought it from didn't make a nickle on the deal but knew how much I wanted a 8 so found one for me. You know when you start collecting Enfields you do meet some great people, I know I have.

[JGaynor]

Who was the contractor for this .22?

There were a number of private companies that converted them for the government, but there were also many gunmakers who made them for commercial sale---the latter were purpose-built and not conversions.

I have one thats a BSA. I believe the adjustable rear sight is a Parker-Hale. The rifle was a milorder aquistion from the old (VT) Century Arms circa 1953.

It shows plenty of use but stil a neat rifle.

Regards,

Jim

[jmoore]

Woweeeeeee. What a beautiful pece of wood. What is it? Is it an oak type, cut from a thin bough, down the grain? It's lovely


I think its maple, but...

Not an uncommon look on Pennsylania style percussion rifles ("Kentucky rifle"); rarely seen on modern gear.

[Peter Laidler]

We have/had a superb H&K formulated and manufactured sub cal insert for our L85 and L86 SA80's. It is very good and reliable. The problem is that it can't be used in the upgraded A2 rifles/MG's so they are all back in Ordnance. I gave my sons school Cadet Force 4 sets to use in their A1 type Cadet rifles but even these are being changed to A2 spec/self loading type soon

Anyway, if you've got an H&K sub cal kit and an A2 type rifle, don't worry because the kit can be modified slightly to fit the new type rifle.

Ah, yes......., where were we...........?

[Trilux]

What is different about the A2 to stop the kit working Peter?

[Peter Laidler]

It's the width of the new hammer. You can't make it narrower as it affects the next bit and so on. BUT you can machine the gap in the back end of the sub cal kit carrier so that it's wide enough to allow the new A2 hammer to slip through.