Reliable Data on Winchester Manufacturing Dates?

[azimuth]

I was reading the earlier thread on the M75 Winchester Trainers. I own one of the rifles mentioned in the thread (#38930) and when checking on armscollectors.com, it is listed as being manufactured in 1946. I also own a U.S. marked M97 riot gun with matching barrel/receiver numbers and a barrel date of 1942. When I look it up on armscollectors it is listed as being manufactured in 1949, which is off by several years. So, I question whether the date for the M75 could also be incorrect. Anyone have a take on this? Is all of the data from this site in question, or just the data for certain makes/models?

Thanks for any help,
azimuth

[MK111]

I also have a Win 75 Trainer that the serial number dates it in 1946. The experts state that the Military contract ran into 1946. My rifle has been arsenal rebuilt, parkerized and stock arsenal stamped. So I would consider both of our 1946 rifles as Military.

[azimuth]

MK111,
I believe I read about your M75 in that other thread. Sounds like ours are quite similar other than the front sight. Mine has the tall blade sight dovetailed into the barrel.

I'm mainly curious about the existence of another place that can be used to determine manufacture dates of Winchesters that is more accurate than the data at armscollector. Having the date returned on a WW2 shotgun be off by seven years makes me question the validity of their data as a whole.

azimuth

[MK111]

Your are right about my Win 75 front sight. At some point in the past the orginal Win blade front sight was changed over to a older Redfield globe front sight dovetailed into the barrel. As to another site for serial number dating try proofhouse.com and see what you come up with and let me know.

[azimuth]

MK111- thanks for the link. I tried it out and came up with the same dates. I figure the data must have originated from the same source. I know for a fact that the M97 is a 1942 shotgun. The M75 could very well be from 1946, but I'd like to know for sure.

thanks again,
azimuth

[n64atlas]

Barrel dates and receiver dates can be off. The barrels were stamped with the date of their manufacture, then assembled to the receiver. It wasn't first in first out, thus the barrel date vs. serial number for date of manufacture. According to Ned Schwings's " Winchester Pocket Guide" the serial number range for Winchester 97 shotgun receivers made in 1949 were 944086-953042.
It is my understanding that barrels did not get the serial number added until it was mated to a receiver.

[azimuth]

n64atlas--It's my understanding that US contracts for M97 shotguns ended in '43, so it couldn't have been made any later than that. Also, from the reported serial number ranges of other M97 riot/trench guns, 1942 does appear to be the correct date.

thanks,
azimuth

[binew]

My unofficial source lists the 97 Military 1942 930537-956216.

Nothing on 75.

binew

[azimuth]

Thanks, binew...my M97 falls right in the middle of that group (941561).

[n64atlas]

Again, according to Schwing: The actual records for the Winchester 97 between the dates 1904-1949 are complete. They do estimate the serial number ranges between 1897-1904 and again at 1949-1957. Barrel date has never indicated manufacture date of the receiver.
The serial number dates Binew gives [930537-956216] would put all of them out of the 1942 production serial number range and into the 1947-1950 range. The serial number range of 1941-1943 Receivers should be 875946-912265
All this being said, Winchester is not noted for accurate records for some models.
Was there a rebuild of he 1942 barrel dated military shotguns after the war?

[azimuth]

n64atlas--I appreciate that you looked up that information, but I believe you nailed it at the end of your last post. Winchester's records must have been off quite a bit on this model at least. I just wonder if the data on the M75 production dates is accurate.

azimuth

[n64atlas]

I Houze's book on the Winchester 52 series, he says they wrote down the serial number of the last receiver they made that day. So I imagine they did this for all the firearms they built. It seems odd to me they would be off that many years on several firearms. I don't want to keep stealing this thread about the 75 so I'll post on the shotgun forum with further questions I have.