Remington 11 info needed

[lonewolf]

Gentlemen, I have been looking at a Remington model 11 shotgon. I believe it to be authentic, but need a few questions answered. It has US Military Finish on the receiver, US and the flaming bomb on the barrel...both of which appear correct. Also on the side of the barrel where the date code is located, there is an anchor. No CYL stamped, and there is a Cutts Compensator ...would these be correct ? The left side of the stock is stamped with the ordinance canons and FJA...would this be correct ?
Thank you for any help.

[Tom Doniphon]

The anchor mark is a Remington factory mark, not a military mark.

The Military Model 11s with factory installed Cutts compensators do not have barrel choke marks. So the Cutts is likely original from the factory.

Make sure that it has matching serial numbers on the receiver, barrel (next to the assembly ring), the stock (have to remove stock to see number), and on the trigger assembly there may be one or more (have to remove it to see them all).

What's the serial number, if you know?

[lonewolf]

Tom, Thanks for all the info, you nailed the barrel code...RMM. 100% correct and original. Thank you

[ibuymilitaria]

Yes sound correct to me. Your shot gun is for training purposes to teach fundamentals of putting a lead on targets. Much cheaper than 50 cal. As to Cyl bore to the best of my knowledge only riot type used that bore. Also trench but Model 11 didnt come in that configuration. I have both, one similar to yours with a bird scene and the riot with Cly bore and military finish on it . Hope this helps Jeff B

[emmagee1917]

Does this gun have a long bbl or a riot length bbl ? I've seen both with the no-choke-marked bbl. They all seem to be orig. I just can't see them putting a comp on a riot bbl. , but there appears to be several out there. Chris

[lonewolf]

Chris, It has a long barrel, seems 100% original.
Thanks for the input

[Johnny Peppers]

The remark about the anchor stamp is interesting, as just the past week I was leaving the local gun shop when I ran into a collector I have known for years. He ask me if I had any information on the Model 51 Remingtons that were used by the Navy as he had one with the anchor on it. When I explained that the anchor was a Remington inspection or proof mark and had nothing to do with the Navy, he protested that his had U.S. Navy stamped under the grip panels.
And so it goes.

[chuckindenver]

i thought the same thing with the marking, i have a 513T marked with an Anchor right by the serial number,
thought it was a Navy mark for years, iv read a couple places that it was a subinspectors mark as well,
when i find the book, and read it ill write it down by my desk as not to forget it.
another foot note.
i have early riot M11 that was used for Skeet shooting by the Nat Guard, and it has a cutts comp on it as well,
not sure if they did it, or Remington did it, ill check again for the choke markings, but i dont think it had any.
i picked it up from a man that used it for that, and when the Guards trap skeet club closed he kept the shotgun, and it sat in his closet for 40 years.
iv shown some pics in the past, if i get a chance, ill post some more pics of that shotgun as well.

[lonewolf]

Thank you all, I appreciate the willingness to share your wealth of knowledge.

[coneten]

The mention of the NG skeet gun is interesting. I saw a Winchester Model 12 SN# range was 1945 trench gun and US marked. It had the butt stock with sling swivel. The barrel was a replacement..not Winchester. It had a Simmons vent rib and a Cutts comp. The condition of this gun was excellent. I wondered if it might have been altered for recreational purposes by an armorer.

[chuckindenver]

its known that several shotguns, and rifles were givin to Gov, owned shooting clugs,
to loaned for shooting and or hunting.
as for who did the midifications???not real sure, the rib was likely added by a private gunsmith for a shooting club.

[hirsca]

Just to add...I have a M11 with a cutts. The barrel is 26" to the end of the spreader (skeet?) tube measured with a rod inserted into the bbl on to a closed bolt. There is no choke marking. Stamped on top of the bbl is PROPERTY U.S. NAVY. Serial # is 450XXX. The receiver is the standard game scene, but is not martially marked. Finishes on bbl and receiver match, but the S/N's of the bbl and stock do not match.

[chuckindenver]

sounds like somone added a GI barrel to a standard M11.
id have the headspace checked before you take it out and shoot.

[emmagee1917]

Do the serial numbers on the reciever match the bbl ? I would doubt it , but you did not say. Chris

[hirsca]

All three #'s are different. On page 143 of Canfield's new book Combat Shotguns, he states that the Navy M11 is stamped Property U.S. Navy on the receiver, and does not mention anything about the bbl being similarly marked.

Any help is much appreciated.

[jackmorse]

During the war years 1941-1945 there was a total of 59,961 Rem mod 11 produced for the US military. In 1942 Remington Arms Co sold 2305 mod 11 shotguns to the Navy Department, Contract NOs-99105 at a cost of $115,250.

Brl date codes indicate manufacture in April of 1942.

Receiver is marked Property of US Navy on upper left side in the middle of receiver.

Brl is marked Property of US Navy on top just in front of receiver.

All mod 11"s observed were the Sportsman and had a cutts comp.

Respectfully jackmorse

[hirsca]

Thank you jackmorse.

To add to my increasing knowledge base on the M11's, can you please tell me why the bbl date codes & S/N's do not seem to be in sequence?
For example, one of my M11's has a bbl date code of BL (1-42) with a bbl lug S/N of 474134.
Another (the Navy one) has a bbl date code of OL (7-42), but its lug S/N is 462073.
Then a third has a bbl date code of KMM (5-43) with a lug number of 490239.
I would assume that the guns left the factory with matching S/N's on both bbl lug and receiver (the 490239 gun has all matching S/N's).

Any explanation is much appreciated. Thanks, hirsca

[chuckindenver]

on Savage and Remington shotguns, all the numbers matched when they left the factory.
barrels, stocks, and trigger assemblys got replaced..
if you have a replaced barrel, headspace should be checked before firing.

[emmagee1917]

but the truth of the matter is that the guns did not have to be assembled in order. Most were not. In this case , the bbls were stamped with the date they were made. They were stamped with the serial number when they were used. Manufacturers tried to keep a supply of all parts , including recievers , to coast through a time of material shortages or machining errors. SA placed 5 percent of thier recievers in storage and they stayed there until the steel order error happened. They emptied thier shelves to keep production going until they could start making them again. Do you think they bothered to put the "correct" parts on these early numbered recievers to be nice to the collector in 50-60 years? Nope , they used the parts that were in the bins. So these guns actually left the factory with the "wrong" parts on them. I wonder how much money was spent on these by collectors to remove the original "wrong" parts to replace them with non-factory "correct" ones. Chris

[chuckindenver]

i dissargee,
Remington and AJ Savage were bus, and not SA.
when they were new from the factory, they all had matching parts.
however.
i do agree, barrels, bolts ect. may have been mixed up during service,
but any M11 M720 shotgun with non original barrel, should have the headpace checked before firing.
most military shotguns were used for guard duty, and likely saw little shooting time.
some never were issued, and when sold, were like the day they left the factory.
not the same for trench guns, most that saw service were used hard, and had repairs and service.

[emmagee1917]

I don't know which part you are disagreeing with , Chuck , but some more "commercial" examples of which I speak. WW1 , Colt , could not provide 1917 revolvers in numerical order by serial number , had to be stamped with a second number ( the service number) and go by that to do so. ( I have never figured that out).
Carbines--lots of commercial carbine manufacturers did not use all the numbers in thier assigned blocks and did not assemble in order in thier blocks. Some did not even use thier blocks in order , and at least once one used part of one block , then used all of a second , then returned to the first block.
Several times one manufacturer would run short of a part and have some transfered from another manufacturer ( including recievers). These parts had to of came from a stash they had to pull from to send ( otherwise they would have then been out.
Garands--I remember something about the WIN-13 Winchesters , and I remember someting simular with either H&R or INT.
Now , in this particular case , the bbls were marked with the date WHEN MADE. It was stamped with the serial number WHEN MATED to that reciever. In between , the bbls were in storage and were pulled when needed. They did not spend the time to make sure all the January bbls were used before going on to Feburary's , nor did they throw the January bbls away when they were dragged out because they were already using March's bbls. , they just used them.
This is why you have to make educated guesses on some guns you find. The books may say there is a small problem , but the gun looks right as far as finish and wear. New info is comming to light all the time and a LOT of what we KNEW to be fact a few years ago we now know is not always the case because new exceptions have been found.
Chris

[chuckindenver]

the original post is about Remington m11 shotguns, not the other weapons.
Remington and Savage shotguns used by the military.
when they left the factory and were brand new, all the serial numbers matched.
barrel, reciever, trigger group, and buttstock.
though doubtful, it is possible that they would set back receivers for shotguns.
i have seen some with a barrel replaced, the old number was lined out, and the serial number of the new receiver was stamped, and a punch mark next to it to mark that the shotgun had been headspaced.
remember.
this is about a Remington shotgun, not a carbine, Garand or 1917 pistol..
a shotgun.

[emmagee1917]

Well , Chuck , I never said the numbers did not match on the parts of a particular gun when it left the factory. The numbers were "forced" matched when they were mated with the reciever. Let's say they made a bbl in Jan. , they would date code it at that time. They would not put a serial number on it then. Weeks or months later they would use that bbl to assemble a shotgun. At that time the serial number from that reciever would be stamped onto the bbl , triggerguard , stock , etc. They would then finish the assembly / polishing / finishing and send her out. This is why the bbl date codes do not follow serial number procession exactly , but tend to be close for the most part only.
In the example at the begining , just because the bbl dates do not follow the serial number spacing would not be a concern to me on the originality of the guns if the serial numbers matched between the parts. Chris

[chuckindenver]

well, if it make you feel better, i agree with most of what was said,
however, as per Remington M11 training, and riot shotguns,
the barrel, reciever, trigger group housing, buttstock and barrel were all numbered with the complete serial number, before they left the factory.
its been my observation, on guns that have had the barrels changed my the gov, they had a serial number lined out, and the new one restamped above it, and a small punch mark to show that it was headspaced.
i have seen Remington M11,s with a US marked barrel on a non US reciever,
likey changed by someone other then Remington or the military.
and that brings me to the original post, if the numbers do not match the headspace should be checked before firing..safety with these old shotguns is first and foremost.
if the serial was forced matched, id still check it to be safe..better then a face full of hot gas and powder.
its been my observation that these shotguns didnt get the same attention as did the Garands, Carbines, 1911,s ect. not real sure why.
most didnt see much use, and the reason why they are found in great shape.
lots of GI parts can be found for them as well, unused, and in the wrap.
i have a box full of spare GI parts for M11 and Savage shotguns..
im one of the few collectors that actually like those old hard kickers, and own a few, along with a couple trench guns.
i agree with what you said about parts being held back, and put in storage.
barrels, receivers ect,

[emmagee1917]

:>) I repeat , I never said they did not leave the factory unmatched.
They DID leave the factory with all numbered parts matching each other.
What I did say was the 1 reciever made did not leave with the 1st bbl made on it , an so on. The parts were pulled from a stock bin , placed together to be assembled as a firearm , and at some point in the building thereof all the pieces were stamped with the serial number. This could have been a final step , or it may have been done before the parts were separated to go to other stages ( finishing , buttplate fitting , etc.) so that when they came back they could be assembled together to preserve the fitting of parts / headspacing / etc. that had already been done.

AHA--you are talking about post 15 , I was answering post 17. I don't think we really disagree on anything.
These guns were not what you would call military weapons , but rather commercial weapons pressed into military service. They were not held to the strict tolerances of other weapons because they knew the different models of shotguns from all the different factories would have no interchangeability of parts and would be just a small percentage of the weapons issued anyway. They were looking to fill a need at that time , and realized that after the war if they junked them all it would be no big expense. This would be true of all the shotguns , the revolvers , most of the .22 trainers , etc.
Chris