Snider loads

[koldt]

Has anybody done any loads for their Snider-Enfields using smokeless?

If got a couple duplex loads that I'm told work well, but I've got soooo much powder sitting around I'm looking to use some of it.
Especially some bulk canister stuff that is close to Unique. Large flake, slow burn.

I haven't fired mine yet, just doin' some research.

This pre-1900 stuff is all new to me.

Thanks.

[Stevo]

koldt,
My Father's been shooting Sniders for the last 45 years. Every time he hears about someone using a smokeless load in one, he starts to twitch.

He's got some good info on black powder loads, if you'd like it.

Stevo

[Rick]

koldt,
My Father's been shooting Sniders for the last 45 years. Every time he hears about someone using a smokeless load in one, he starts to twitch.

He's got some good info on black powder loads, if you'd like it.
A lot of people use BP in their venerated old guns, but if you don't need the authenticity of the stink and the cleanup, it isn't necessary. All that is required is common sense in not blowing your valued historical firearm up. The smokeless powder manufacturers have even developed smokeless powders particularly for that purpose.

I have several surplus firearms that are from the BP days; not one has seen a BP load while in my possession and never will. All my enjoyment comes from the shooting of these firearms - not the involved cleaning that follows afterwards, or the stink of black powder. And I definitely do NOT want to be disassembling them each time after shooting to give them the boiling water cleanup treatment.

On a quasi-related note, compared Pyrodex to Triple 7 yesterday in my muzzlestuffers (who DO get BP substitutes). Using the standard top end hunting load for my .54 with a 415 grain Minie ball, 120 Gr. of Pyrodex RS gave me an average velocity of about 1400 fps, while the Triple 7 gave me 1600. I seem to recall that Pyrodex used to give me about 1600 when I first tried it years ago. This lot of Pyrodex has been in my powder locker for about 10 years, so I wonder if it is starting to change chemically and losing energy in doing so?

Anyways, my view is that if shooting BP instead of smokeless really turns your crank, then fill your boots and have your fun. But you don't NEED to shoot BP and you lose nothing (in my opinion) by sticking to the smokeless solution.

Those loads out of a T/C Hawken with that crescent shaped brass buttplate will really rock your world...

[muzzle flash]

I put about 100 rounds of black powder loads through my matini 577/450 a year and just hate cleaning the thing. I also would love to shoot smokeless loads but have not found any that I feel safe with.

[Steve]

Has anyone tried American Pioneer Powders yet? It's available in Canada but pricey. http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com

http://www.thespiritof76.com/apppic.jpg...http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/images/home/j_s_gold.jpg

Click on Products. SIR or Russells sells Shockey's Gold at $45/lb but there are other, less expensive alternatives.

Edited to add: I've contacted them for a listing of CDN dealers. Shockey's Gold is apparently a more highly refined composition and the price reflects it. Their regular powders were touted as being clean burning with 1000s of shots fired and NO residue build up. Measures the same as std BP. Clean up with water. I'll let you know their reply.

[koldt]

Yikes, $45 a pound. And I think it would take a little more than what I'm used to with my 38 @ 2.8grs per round.

I've got about 90 pounds of this cannister grade large flake pistol/shotgun powder that I would love to be able to use.

How about I send someone a half pound and they do some experimentation for me:madsmile: Or maybe we could just fill it to the top, scrape off the excess and stuff in the bullet:yikes:

Now back to reality, does BP require the soap and water clean up, or can the barrel be cleaned in a 'regular' way with a bore rod, oil patch and brush? I've got a couple gallons of Breakfree and love slopping that stuff around.

[Claven2]

Water cleaning is only if you use black powder or smokeless with mercuric or corrosive primers.

If you use modern primers and smokeless, you can clean like your other rifles.

There are powders on the market that are designed to use up case volume at low pressure. Hodgdon makes them if I recall. Suggest you start there. Remaining case volume can be topped up with neutral filler.

[Andy]

I have shot plenty of smokeless in my Snider as have many others. True, you can't be as brainless as you can with blackpowder (where full cases are generally safe), but if you are competent to reload smokeless in 30/06 (where mistakes can be costly), you can reload smokless for the Snider.

I posted a ton of info over on http://p223.ezboard.com/fbritishmilitariaforumsfrm2

I find that either a very few grains of a moderately fast pistol powder like Unique, or about 30.0 grs of a slow pistol powder like H4227 worked well for me.

[Claven2]

I have shot plenty of smokeless in my Snider as have many others. True, you can't be as brainless as you can with blackpowder (where full cases are generally safe), but if you are competent to reload smokeless in 30/06 (where mistakes can be costly), you can reload smokless for the Snider.

I posted a ton of info over on http://p223.ezboard.com/fbritishmilitariaforumsfrm2

I find that either a very few grains of a moderately fast pistol powder like Unique, or about 30.0 grs of a slow pistol powder like H4227 worked well for me.

Did you use a filled for the hollow space left in the case, or are the powders you're advocating reasonably resistant to positional sensitivity to not matter much?

[Steve]

I am told that Goex Pinnacle is virtually the same as Amercian Pioneer. In fact, both are made at the same facility by AP.

Smokeless powders such as IMR 4759 or AA5744 are designed for reduced loads in rifles.

In any event, std primers are used for both. There will be less pressure from BP or BP substitute loads than from virtually every smokeless recipe.

[Andy]

Did you use a filled for the hollow space left in the case, or are the powders you're advocating reasonably resistant to positional sensitivity to not matter much?

This could become a very long discussion (and maybe it should). ;)

I worked up four loads that I have employed in 24 ga Fiocchi shotgun hulls (some with a shot wad acting as a sabot), and in the brass Magtech 24 ga shell. All loads were under a 480 gr custom cast bullet, and are quite mild, my objective being 1100-1200 fps. None used filler, except the shot wad which took up all empty space, and only the Unique load was seemingly unaffected by position. I found H4227 the slowest powder that would burn consistently at the low pressures I employed (~12,000 psi) - slower powders tended to just spit out the bullet along with mostly unburned powder.

Unique - 18.0 grs - 1150 fps
SR4759 - 35.0 grs - 1100 fps
AA5744 - 35.0 grs - 1100 fps
H4227 - 35.0 grs - 1100 fps

I intend to try some IMR Trail Boss (15.0 grs) this winter. Trail Boss is VERY "fluffy" - 15.0 grs would consume as much space as 30 grs of Unique and 40-45 grs of the others and might be the perfect powder. I'll report back.

[Doug]

Me too!

As Andy knows, one of my buddies is deer hunting with one of my Sniders this year and another buddy of mine loaded up some duplex rounds for me, which are reasonably accurate:

Federal 210 primer
7 gr 4759
57 gr cartridge powder
dacron filler
535 gr cast

But it was a PITA to do the clean-up of both cases and rifle. If there is a safe smokeless alternative, I am all ears - even if it costs $45 a pound! Heck, the clean-up time is worth that already!!!

Doug

[Andy]

I plan to try the new IMR Trail Boss in my Snider. Something like 15.0 grs. This stuff fills a lot of space and works great at low pressures. I'll report back.

[John Sukey]

Not to be the odd man out, but I thought the reason one buys a BP rifle is to ENJOY the STINK and SMOKE, and making the guy next you with his mouse gun gag and puke :lol: Otherwise why not just buy a rifle designed for smokeless? Cleaning the Martini is not a problem if you have the same funnel used for cleaning the SMLE, and there should still be lots of those in Canada.
I just pop out the breechblock, and use the funnel. No problems.

[copilot001]

Not to be the odd man out, but I thought the reason one buys a BP rifle is to ENJOY the STINK and SMOKE, and making the guy next you with his mouse gun gag and puke :lol: Otherwise why not just buy a rifle designed for smokeless? Cleaning the Martini is not a problem if you have the same funnel used for cleaning the SMLE, and there should still be lots of those in Canada.
I just pop out the breechblock, and use the funnel. No problems.
I,ll second that statement sniders and martinis are more fun when you use the B/P ...everyone at the range sits up and takes notice:D
most of em wander over and wont leave till you let em pop off a few.thats half the fun of shooting these old boomers.
but....I,d sure like to try a few smokeless sometime:D

[Dante]

I use SR4759 as the starter in my duplex loads with B/P and use it alone for smokeless loads in the Snider, M/H and my 43 Mauser. I had a very experienced Snider competitor tell me that even a full case of SR4759 in the Snider would cause no problems...I am NOT suggesting this...I repeat I am not suggesting this... but use it to make a point that my small loads are safe. Some smokeless powders do not ignite properly in small doses. Look around the net for advise....Dave

[Doug]

There is a lad looking for advice on another Canadian forum:

Western Canada Hunting Forums - 577 Snider (http://huntshoot.coastangler.com/hunting/f16/577.snider-10882/#post101390)

And I referred him over here, hope you fellows can help him out!

Doug

[Bob]

While I don't mind the BP for BPCR I would also like a smokeless load for hunting. Will be working on these loads and the Shockley stuff soon and report back...Bob

[K31]

What is all this talk about boiling water and soap? I didn't think anyone actually did that anymore! I buy el cheapo window cleaner from Fields for $1 a bottle. In my Snider, I just remove the little retaining screw, and the hinge pin and breach block. Then, put the gun upside down in the cleaning cradle. Just soak one patch in the window cleaner, and put it on your shotgun rod. Rub it up and down a few times, repeat once more. Then dry the bore, and oil well. It takes less time to clean my Snider than it does scrubbing copper out of my modern rifles. Once a year I totally dismantle the rifle, and check it for rust etc. Never a problem. I shoot 72gr.of Goex FG, Federal large rifle primers, and the Rapine Trashcan bullet. This load is accurate enough to hit a 1litre milk carton every shot at 100 yards. I lube with 50-50 beeswax and Crisco lube, and sometimes add some corn oil in Winter. The hollow base in the bullet is filled with lube, and a bit of Cream-of-Wheat goes over the powder. I can fire sixty shots with no real loss of accuracy(all the brass I own!) and the brass comes out reasonably clean. When I get home, I just throw the brass in the sink with some soap and vinegar, and it cleans up in about ten minutes. You should clean brass A.S.A.P. after shooting, but the rifle can be kept in a warm, dry room for a couple of days if you don't have time. The exception is when you use Pyrodex, which is very corrosive. THAT stuff will rust a gun in just a few days. I have found NO advantage in using magnum primers, or drop tubes in the Snider. Both of these help in my .43 MAUSER, though. I hope this helps! I almost forgot, don't use regular Windex for cleaning, it has too much ammonia, and may be hard on the Iron barrels in Sniders.

[LocknLoad]

I have shot alot of 577 Snider and 577/450 Martini and here is what I do over the winter months. All brass is cleaned and resized after every outing especially the 577/450 after it is annealed. When reloading, the target load for 577 Snider is around 50 grs of FFG and I drop in 2 grs of either bullseye or Unique over the flash hole and 50 grs FFG on top. The bullet is a 505 gr hollow base mini that has been wrapped in paper up to the scraping groove and has a rat tail covering the base. The bullet was greased in the grooves first. The Martini uses a 450 solid round nose bullet (Lee mould), sized and lubed then paperpatched also. The target load was 75grs FFG. The charge is started with 2 grs of bullseye or unique over the flash hole and topped up with FFG to about 75 grs which is what I use. The air space in each cartridge is closed up by shredding a 20 or 12 gauge felt wad and adding it in. These loads have worked well for accuracy and were told to me by people who used them in competition along before I did. The smokless powder is there to ensure good ignition and keep the barrel clean.

[Calum]

I have shot plenty of smokeless in my Snider as have many others. True, you can't be as brainless as you can with blackpowder (where full cases are generally safe), but if you are competent to reload smokeless in 30/06 (where mistakes can be costly), you can reload smokless for the Snider.

I posted a ton of info over on Snider-Enfield Forum - Old Guns - British Militaria Forums - Message Board - Yuku (http://p223.ezboard.com/fbritishmilitariaforumsfrm2)

I find that either a very few grains of a moderately fast pistol powder like Unique, or about 30.0 grs of a slow pistol powder like H4227 worked well for me.

Awesome info, thanx! :bow:

What a treat to peek back into this website and discover some great info on reloading these beasts with modern powders.
As I also have zero interst in using BP, and taking this old girl apart more then I have to.

Someday I hope I can go Deer hunting with this rifle.

[dsmc1]

Hi All
Just started shootoing my snider carbine. Tride shooting smokeless to start with (505 gr minie wiht 25 grains of IMR 4198) the powder only filled half the case, so I filled the rest with cream of wheat, but if I do that again, will place a separater wad; I think the filler filtered down thru the powder. First shot, nothing happened, but the breech was slightly warm, so it stayed pointing down range for 3 minutes. I opened it and the case was empty and the bullet had travelled 4-6 inched down the barrel (575 slug ina 590 bore equals very litle friction). was some unburned powder and cream of wheat in the bore.
I drove the slug out and reloaded; second try fired perfectly; even hit a 3 inch bull at 100 feet.
Third fired, then the fourth gave a POOF and I watched the slug fly to the cardboard target and BOUNCE OFF.
DECIDED TO GO BACK TO THE LOADING BENCH AND PULL THE REST APART.

[dsmc1]

continued....
Took them all apart and found the powder and CoW had mixed, so trashed it all. Went to 70 gr Pyrodex and it shoots great. IF I use smokeless in the future, will place a wad to separate the powder from the CoW.
Cleans up with a swab drenched in windex and a good oiling. I'm amazed that with the amount of use this carbine must have had fron external condition, the bore is pristene!

I cleaned the cases with the windex and a bore brush, but think the cardboard inserts are going to have to go, as there is no way to get residue from between them and the case walls.

By the Way, for any of you using a vibratory tumbler to clean your brass, before you spend an arm and a leg on wallnut shell or con cob media at a shooting supply store; got to the local PET STORE, where they sell the same materials for bird cage litter for a QUARTER of the price.

My next project is to make a casting of the chamber with melted sulfer powder (a Dixie Gun Works trick) to get an accurate size of the chamber, so I can decide if I need to buy or make a sizing die. The bore slugs at .590 and the necks of the once-fired cases measure .600-.603. So unless the chamber measures much more than that, I will make a neck sizing die at .600 which should work well with a .585 HB mold I just bought.

Will post any new info

[Andy]

Hi All
Just started shootoing my snider carbine. Tride shooting smokeless to start with (505 gr minie wiht 25 grains of IMR 4198) the powder only filled half the case, so I filled the rest with cream of wheat, but if I do that again, will place a separater wad; I think the filler filtered down thru the powder. First shot, nothing happened, but the breech was slightly warm, so it stayed pointing down range for 3 minutes. I opened it and the case was empty and the bullet had travelled 4-6 inched down the barrel (575 slug ina 590 bore equals very litle friction). was some unburned powder and cream of wheat in the bore.
I drove the slug out and reloaded; second try fired perfectly; even hit a 3 inch bull at 100 feet.
Third fired, then the fourth gave a POOF and I watched the slug fly to the cardboard target and BOUNCE OFF.
DECIDED TO GO BACK TO THE LOADING BENCH AND PULL THE REST APART.

The amount of IMR 4198 you used was not nearly enough to get it up to the pressure where it is designed to burn, and I think that pressure is above where you want to be with the Snider. I see that powder as just on the other side of too slow for the Snider.

I have had success with 15.0 grs of Unique and 35.0 grs of both H4227 and SR4759. Those powders will achieve about 1100 fps with that bullet and be well within its pressure limits.

I don't use filler. The Unique is not position sensitive while the H4227 and SR4759 are. For the latter, I tipped the gun vertical before each shot and that worked fine. I settled on the Unique and never changed.

[keltic0_1]

Hi

I have an 1860 iron barrel snider and use Unique shotgun powder on a regular basis.

For the load I use 12 grains of unique wadded with a quarter sheet of toilet paper and then top up to within an eigth of an inch of the top of the case with breadcrumb ( local fishing shop sells it as groundbait.) I finish with a fibre wad and a .582 500 gr lead bullet. If the barrel is worn you can go up to .590.

As I only shoot the one snider I never re-size the cases and I fit the bullet head loose.

I get absolutely fantastic results with this load - consistent 1 to 1 and a half inch groups at 100 yds.

My problem is I wish to shoot the rifle at Bisley (UK Rifle association range)this Autumn and I need a black powder load.

Anyone any details for a good load up to 500 metres ??

Best wishes Warren