A rifle/revolver question for a beginner

[gunner]

Hallo guys,
i have a question not for me but for a comrade, He want to start muzzle loader shooting. Wich is a good rifle for shooting and also for competition shooting ? And he also want to shoot black powder revolvers like a Remington New Army. Wich revolver is a good one ? I have no experiences in BP shooting, so i hope i can get some infos from you.

Thank you in advance

Gunner

[jjroth]

is this just for target shooting or hunting?

I'm a traditionalist, using a 50 cal T/C New Englander sidelock, for target shooting at the club and for deer hunting.

If just targets then a .45 caliber is easy shooting, but the .45's are scarce.

.50 caliber is next up and good for both hunting & targets.

Action is open as you can get the modern style in-lines or the sidelock.

little more info be helpful.

Call T/C arms and ask for a free copy of the muzzleloader manual, its a good read and explains the aspects of black-powder arms.

[gunner]

Hello jjroth, thank you for your answer. both are only for target shooting.
The rifle should have the " Old-Syle" sidelock and he prefers a longer one like a musket. On the revolver, he is open for good advices. Hope that helps to find out a little more. Thanks .

Regards

Gunner

[michael d.]

Dixiegunworks.com has a good selection of target pistols an rifles. On the pistol mike out each chamber an then ream out if have too. Also get one with target sites already on. On rifle 32-36 in. bbl. an lap the lands to remove any burrs ect. Hot shot nipples are a must or you might drill out a nipple if need be. Most of all good quality powder an pratice, pratice, pratice an quality caps or flints. good luck

[MEHavey]

If not a "purist," see if you can find a used Ruger Old Army revolver.
Built w/ Ruger toughness and already equiped w/ good sights.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ruger_old_army.gif

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ruger_old_army_syn.htm

[gunner]

Hello to all, what do you think from a " Deutsche Jägerbüchse " , Enfield 2 Band or a hawkens rifle ?

Regards Gunner

[Patrick Chadwick]

Guten Abend Gunner!

I must intervene, as our friends from Across the Pond will not be aware of German legal requirements. Maybe they will find it interesting, and stop whingeing because they are not allowed to fire a 155mm howitzer in their back yards or a 4-barrelled flak on their rooftops (LOL). So here goes many pages of regulations condensed into a few lines:

SINGLE-shot muzzle loaders, both originals and serious replicas do not require a license, but the purchaser must be over the age of 18. Percussion revolvers and double-barrelled shotguns require the "gelbe Karte" license. And a completely different license is required in all cases for purchase, possession and use of black powder.

It is not possible to obtain such a license without attending and passing an approved course of instruction. Firearms proofed for black powder only may NOT be fired with nitro powders. To do so is not only illegal, but in the event of an accident the perpetrator will have invalidated all insurance coverage (culpable negligence).

That is one of the reasons why I consistently advise against such use. The second reason is that all competitions in which I have participated (England, France Germany, Italy) specify that only black powder may be used to load flintlock and percussion firearms.

I recommend that your friend accesses the website of the MLAIC (Muzzle Loaders Association International Committee) and downloads the regulations if he has any interest in competition shooting.

Returning to "serious replicas". The above mentioned license-free acquisition of single-shot percussion firearms applies ONLY to serious replicas. That is, to those that make a serious attempt to replicate an original firearm designed before (not sure of exact date) ca. 1880. In the 1970s and 80s there was a surge of more-than-dubious "replicas" that had no proper historical originals. Your friend should beware of people offering him second-hand percussion firearms until he has gained a lot of knowledge and experience, as there are those who are eager to get rid of such items that now require a real firearms "yellow" license.

The Ruger revolver is one such. Sorry MEHavey, here in Mauserland we are forced to be purists! There never was an "Old Army" in the 19th century. So although the Ruger Old Army may be a very fine revolver, it is "verboten" for Gunner's friend. In-line percussion rifles, as used in the USA for hunting, are also "verboten. As is hunting with muzzle-loaders, full stop.

And anyway, all these things are inacceptable for competition shooting, which is generally held according to MLAIC rules, which only permit "serious" replicas - and only black powder, no substitutes.

I earnestly recommend that your friend should join a club which has a number of active muzzle-loaders. Which club? Get hold of a list of the participants in the DSB regional championships (Bavaria, Hessen, or wherever) and you will see which clubs they belong to. Then go to one nearby and make contact.

As which revolvers or rifles I would recommend - the pseudo-replicas have pretty much died out as new products, thanks to the above-mentioned legislation. If I start on a list, you will all be bored. The best target revolvers are the Rogers & Spencer and the Remington New Army. The best rifle for shooting in the prone position (100m and further) is the Gibbs. And the best for offhand shooting is the Bristlen & Morges. And none of those is cheap. So your friend needs experience and know-how before buying anything.

Patrick

[gunner]

Wow ! Patrick thank you for your more than very interesting post. I must admit that i`ve never heard before from MLAIC . He made the "Pulverschein " for blackpowder and has the chance to buy an Remington New Army in stainless with the "Gießkokillen" ( molds ?) and around 14Kg of lead . The price is good for that, i think. The rifles you said are they from the UK, and where in Germany is a experienced dealer for this ones ? A gun club is near in Pfronten so this is not a problem and in our gun-club a few shooters have the same hobby. Thanks again Patrick.

Best Regards

Ulrich

BTW. Have you heard about shooting in a " Bundesliga " i`t seems that it is interesting we meet one of the referee`s next wednesday at our Range. Take a look at their website: http://.gkbl.de/

[Patrick Chadwick]

Remington New Army is exactly the type I would buy, as the sights are easier to use than those on the Rogers & Spencer. The rifles I mentioned are manufactured by Pedersoli and cost way over 1000 euros. Milsurps are much cheaper!

Patrick

[gunner]

Thank you, Patrick. Than we look at our gun dealer for the rifles. The Remington is a nice peace should think about BP shooting. Good night.

Best regards

Ulrich

[gunner]

Hallo und guten Tag Patrick,
my comrad purchased the Remington revolver it is a very nice one. We were shooting it at our range. It works very well and after a hour of thick fog we`ve seen the result. That thing works much better than some of the modern revolver`s. Didn`t know that BP shooting can be so funny.

Regards

Ulrich

[jmoore]

For rifles, Mr. Chadwick's recommendation of the Pedersoli Gibbs target rifle is hard to top, unless offhand is the only type of target shooting you're goig to do.
There was, however, a most impressive bit of kit called the Whitworth rifle! The best reproductions were made in Enland a number of years back. With proper hexagonal bullets(often paper patched) they are serious contenders for ultra-long range shooting.

[Gun Surfer]

Remington is a superior design in many respects including strength, utility and in changing cylinders (if you can get an extra cylinder). The Colt 1851 in .36 cal points better and I have gotten mine to be quite acccurate at 25-50 yards, but the Colt is less reliable and harder to clean (but if it was good enough for Wild Bill Hickock for at least part of his "career", its good enough for me). I use water based Dixie Black Solve to lubricate the cylinder pins to keep them working well during a shooting session, other solutions would work too. I prefer black powder in the revolvers, other stuff seems much hotter than regular black powder, and frankly I have not ever used the subtitutes very much.

For a nice replica rifle, if you can get them, the Lyman Great Plains rifle has worked well for me (might be cheaper than Pedersoli?). In USA you can get the regular round ball version, or Hunter version for conical bullets, I have one with 2 barrels. I dont shoot a 155 howitzer in my back yard, but I do shoot this in .54 cal with great success and fun (in my area of Missouri, most of the neighbors shoot and nobody asks any questions :-) Moderate loads are more accurate than full power, usually.

[Johnny Peppers]

Remington never made a pistol in stainless steel if the goal is to remain absolutely traditional. The Ruger Old Army was never intended to be a copy of anything, just an excellent black powder revolver. Also, the Ruger Old Army can be dry fired without harming the nipples. I shot one for many years in black powder competition and can attest to their accuracy.
When our club lost it's range, I pretty well dropped out of black powder competition, but at that time a pistol showed up that was winning everything. It was a Colt 1911 frame with a muzzle loading barrel attached. It was as accurate as a modern target auto. That is non-traditional.