New to trapdoor reloading

[Major Tom]

I have an original M84 rifle in excellent condition. I want to shoot it using appropriate loads. I know the '70' in 45-70 is the original black powder load in grains. Is this a compressed load? what tools will I need to correctly load black powder? Finally, concerning smokeless powders. What are some good powders and loads> I have SR4759 and Trailboss, 4198 and Unique.

[Swede]

I use Traiboss in my trapdoor and sharps. 5744 is another good powder for the .45-70. I've shot a lot of BP in the past but mostly use these two for my smokeless loads now.

[John Sukey]

Just an opinion for what little it's worth.
fill case with BP to the point that the bullet will slightly compress the load. Some will disagree, but ths only reasons I can think of for using smokeless in a BP rifle is being too lazy to clean it afterwards, OR the unavailability of BP locally.

One nice thing about BP is you CANNOT accidently double charge the case.

Unique? DON'T EVEN THINK OF GOING THERE!:eek:

[AKA Hugh Uno]

there is tons of information on the web. Most loading manuals have sections on 45-70 loads for older rifles (you should start there). I have found heavier bullets (480+ grains) TEND to shoot more accurately in TDs. ANY of the usual BPCR loads/bullets, and loading techniques for BP work well.

http://www.reloadammo.com/4570load.htm

http://loaddata.com/loads/45-70caliberloads.html

I personally like these powders:

4198
7383 (good luck finding any)
Varget
4320
4350
4227 (use with caution)
Trail Boss (VERY mild even with max loads)

[Major Tom]

When using black powder, which rating do you use? 3fg, 2fg

[JB White]

In my '84, I'm using starline brass and 60gr. equivalent of American Pioneer 2f.
Since AP is a black powder substitute, that charge is by VOLUME and not weight. Over that I drop a wax paper 'wad' to keep bullet lube from contacting the powder.

It's just enough powder that a 405 gr. cast FP bullet will slightly compress the load upon seating.


The reason I use AP is because I get the safe BP pressures and all the smoke without the worries for immediate cleaning. I'm not always in a place where I can clean black powder messes the same day.
American Pioneer is very, very forgiving in that regard compared to Goex, Swiss, or even Pyrodex for that matter. The only thing I do is drop the fired cases into a plastic peanut butter jar filled with soapy water and screw the lid down tight for transport. It makes cleaning, prep, and reloading much easier later.

[AKA Hugh Uno]

I started long ago with Goex 2F (which worked fine), have used 3X a couple times (which worked fine), and most recently used Goex Cartridge (which works fine). I bought a few pounds of Swiss a few months ago (because most BPCR shooters are using it now) , but have not had any chance to load up any yet.

As for this cleaning issue. I have NEVER understood why anyone thinks cleaning a breechloading cartrdige rifle of BP residue is much different from anything else. Certainly not to change to a non-BP substitute! Just run your cleaning patches down the bore with water and/or BP solvent (maybe a brush on occasion) band then with rust protectant while you are still at the range. Voila, done.

I have a pound or two of some of these other BP substitte nostrums, but only because they were A. given to me, or B. found at the range. I have a coehorn mortar that eats those up nicely (and they DO NOT do nearly as well as BP in this role, always a "poof" and no boom). They do make excellent white smoke! No thank-you Mrs. Wiley for anything else.

http://fototime.com/77647F71F3552A0/standard.jpg

[Kragnut]

It fills up the case nicely, I dont have to worry about using wadding or detonations. Its relatively affordable and can be loaded in some handgun cartridges too (dont use smokeless powder in ANY handgun made in the black powder era, not even TB). Hogdon has nice color loading tables specifically for vintage trapdoor rifles that you can print out on their website. I printed them all out along with Univeral Clays and 4895 for my krags, 03s and Garands and put together a nice binder I keep on my bench.

[Kragnut]

Trailboss is a very low density, low pressure smokeless powder that fills up those big cases nicely. Its impossible to double charge with if using a rotary drum powder measure. Its great for trapdoors and 1886's. Dont use it in weak actions like the 66,73, and 76 winchesters. Rolling blocks just make me flat out nervous...I'd stick to BP in those too. Cleaning the trapdoor with BP loads isnt bad. I put a couple of drops of dish detergent and some baking soda into old water bottles and leave them in the sun while I shoot to warm up. Boresnakes work great on TD cause you can clean from the chamber no problem. I just dont like having the BP around the house in any quantity cause of its properties.

[AKA Hugh Uno]

Muzzles are worn out by simply rubbing a cleaning rod across the area (certainly not from nromal shooting).

Why would anyone think that a used bore-snake loaded up with carbon and other fouling from 6 to 63 previous uses won't do the same thing? There is a reason one throws away dirty bore patches after one use.

People have broken out of more than one prison by CUTTING THROUGH hardened stell bars with MOP STRINGS coated with comet clenser etc.

unless you can afford a brand new bore snake for each pass down your barrel, I would pass.

A *bore guide and a quality stainless or coated rod would be a better choice.

(*although I use a couple precision instruments called "fingers" to protect the muzzles on Garands and other rifles like TDs that you cannot clean from the breech end).

[Kragnut]

If powder fouling was so abrasive I would think that shooting more than one round without cleaning the barrel would wear it out. Never had a problem with cleaning with regular rods or "boresnakes", which I usually make on my own by tightly wrapping old face cloths that my mother in law gets from her buisiness (cleaning hotel linens and towels.) around wooden dowels. I wash both them and the comercial ones out in a diluted solution of simple green when done. Swabbing a clean bore with a little 50/50 mix of gun oil and Slick 50 before putting the gun away will make cleaning it that much easier next time you shoot it too.

[AKA Hugh Uno]

was my concern. the bore snake is just one big continuous lapping instrument being drawn over the muzzle for no great reason. low velocity lead bullet (mostly anyway) ammunition, black powder or smokeless, does NOT create any difficult cleaning issues. with BP, I can shoot all morniing via use of a blow-tube and then a few pacthes to clean, swipe out the chamber area a bit, and I'm done. BP fouling isn't copper fouling folks. with smokeless, it's even easier and faster.

cleaning BP cases is more of a hassle (and not that bad at that) than the bore (at least if you use smelly vinegar like me!).

there are simply better ways to clean a rifle bore than a bore-snake IMVHO.

http://www.fulton-armory.com/MuzzleGaugeDemo_50.jpg

[sdkrag]

I agree with those that use only black powder. I have loaded for 30 years and I HAVE made mistakes. Double charging with smokeless in trapdoor loads is not one that I ever want to make. I disagree that the rolling block action is scary. They made over a million of them including 7mm and others chambered for smokeless powder. I do use balck powder in my 50-70 rolling block and my trapdoor. 2F or Cartridge grade are my preference. Like others I load 56-60 grains and and slightly compress during bullet seating. I have fired ltterally thousands of rounds in the last 20 years with no problems.

[AKA Hugh Uno]

is to use a fast(er) PISTOL powders like Unique or Bullseye (maybe Red-Dot etc). Virtually anything else "normally used" will overfill on a double-charge. There are also the powders like 4227 that are riskier than others in the event of going a few grains over as well.

Of course, triple-checking your measure/scale and EYEBALLING every filled case BEFORE slapping a bullet on top is the no-brainer part.

I have NEVER had a double charge and only once remembering a squibish load (in a .32 S&W Long) many years ago that I am reasonably sure was caused by a defective primer and not an empty case.

I have maybe a couple times over many years REMOVED bullets by hand from charged cases (before final searting) because maybe half-way through placing the bullet on the cartridge case on a batch of 50, I realized I was not 110% sure in my Airborne mind I had eyeballed the cases. No biggies and each time, each case had the correct amount of powder.

Not saying I am perfect, but it's usualy not that much of a challnge to avoid blowing oneself up with smokeless.

and it's not that I don't like whiffing BP smoke either, it's just easier to make up very accurate smokeless loads for a TD than "hand-rolling" up drop-tubed, compressed, veggie-wadded, magnum-primed, BPCR loads with carefully cast and weighed (and lubed with SPG) match-quality bullets. I haven't felt the need, or had the requirement, of doing that for a good while.

http://fototime.com/554DB6EB19CAA88/standard.jpg