.264" Carcano barrel?

[jmoore]

During my recent ammo tests, I drug out a "Bubba'd" Carcano that was purchased for parts. Old hex shank barreled rifle that looks to have been shortened and had some kind of Mauser front sight band installed. Bore condition looked good, so off to range it goes.

Fired some Prvi Partisan ammo w/o dramas (just function tests, no accuracy work) so moved onto the Hornady factory load. First round into the chamber won't go, even w/ a bump or two, so I try to extract the round. No dice! Pop the bolt handle hard and out comes the case along w/ loose powder flying about, no bullet! End of test for this rifle.

Get home, knock out bullet. It shows heavy rifling marks on its nose along w/ a lot of scratches from the crimped case neck both forward and aft of the bullet cannelure.

Check groove dia of bore- 0.264-0.265"! It has even width EIGHT lands and grooves (EACH). Doesn't appear to be gain twist rifling.

The barrel seems to have been inserted into the old barrel shank and indifferently chambered as the fired Prvi cases swelled more in the body area than any of the other Carcanos fired that day.


So, finally, my question- Is anyone familiar with the rifling described above? I suspect the barrel may have been robbed from something else, but what? Its been in this rifle a good long time.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Sounds as if you were lucky not to be able to chamber and fire the Hornadys!
I don't mean this as trivial criticism, but it does show up the importance of the standard caution found throughout the Lyman reloading manual when referring to old rifles: "slug your bore and size accordingly".

Can you measure the twist and groove depth (overall diameter of a slug driven through the bore)- that might help to ID the source of the barrel? 8 grooves does not sound like a typical military barrel.
If you can post land, groove and twist dimensions, I'll look through the info I have to see if I can find a match, as there were quite a few obsolete 6.5 mm chamberings.

By the way, land and groove dimensions are not quite enough to select a good bullet fit. The ratio land/groove width is also relevant, so if you can measure, or even estimate that, it would also be helpful.

Patrick

[jmoore]

Ya, kinda stupid on my part, but at least it has a short leade in it! Might have been more interesting had it chambered.:runaway:

I started w/ Prvi, knowing that the bullets are undersize. It worked normally! I was kind of looking for something to blow up, but this set up is too interesting; too bad the chamber's sloppy.

Groove dia. is 0.264-0.265" depending on which ones are measured, not too unusual, except its supposed to be 0.268"! Other dimensions to follow; its not with me now.

The ratio of the lands and grooves is just about even; kind of weird looking, compared to, say, a Garand, where the grooves appear to take up about twice or more of the bore surface than the lands.

It appears to be a fairly old barrel with very squared off corners in the rifling. I'll try borescoping it directly (soon, that is, to you non-Ex-Confederate types). Probably hook cut rather than broached, just as a guess.

[jmoore]

Rifling width:

lands- ~0.045"
grooves- ~0.058"
Circumferential totals work out pretty close to theory.

Groove dia- 0.264-0.265"
bore dia- 0.257"

twist rate- one turn in about 8"

Fine finish to bore surfaces- originally at least

minor dia. of bore shows very small perpendicular machining marks, better than most barrels

groove dia. has longitudinal machining marks consistant w/ a hook cutter.:p

ETA: For some reason I went back to this article again (Thanks, Badger! and Andy!) and Voila!, the action pictures show pretty much exactly the set up I've got. Don't know the first thing about Cooey, though. Possibly this is one them thar' sportster things- HORRIBLE stock, though!

Link: "Myth Busted" - Proof Testing an Eaton Carcano Rifle - Military Surplus Collectors Forums (http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=265)

[jmoore]

Broke out the loading manual and the education continues! 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer fits perfectly the dimensions of the fired 6.5 Carcano Prvi Partisan cases. So!

The barrel stub DOES read "6.5MM". The folks doing the conversion just didn't specify WHICH ding-dang 6.5 mm cartridge.

There's a lesson to be learned here. Will I absorb it? Eh, probably not... Y'all feel free to laugh at me, though!

[Alfred]

During my recent ammo tests, I drug out a "Bubba'd" Carcano that was purchased for parts. Old hex shank barreled rifle that looks to have been shortened and had some kind of Mauser front sight band installed. Bore condition looked good, so off to range it goes.

Fired some Prvi Partisan ammo w/o dramas (just function tests, no accuracy work) so moved onto the Hornady factory load. First round into the chamber won't go, even w/ a bump or two, so I try to extract the round. No dice! Pop the bolt handle hard and out comes the case along w/ loose powder flying about, no bullet! End of test for this rifle.

Get home, knock out bullet. It shows heavy rifling marks on its nose along w/ a lot of scratches from the crimped case neck both forward and aft of the bullet cannelure.

Check groove dia of bore- 0.264-0.265"! It has even width EIGHT lands and grooves (EACH). Doesn't appear to be gain twist rifling.

The barrel seems to have been inserted into the old barrel shank and indifferently chambered as the fired Prvi cases swelled more in the body area than any of the other Carcanos fired that day.


So, finally, my question- Is anyone familiar with the rifling described above? I suspect the barrel may have been robbed from something else, but what? Its been in this rifle a good long time.

Many years ago I read of a similar situation involving a celebrity, I think it was Grandpa Stoneman of the Stoneman singing group.
He had a Mannlicher Schnauer Sporting rifle and the ammo was reloads which had been topped with salvaged Mannlicher Carcano .268 bullets.
He did not notice the powder coming out when he pulled back the bolt. In fact he had forgotten he had a round in the chamber and on seeing the empty case he thought he'd simply left an empty in the chamber.
On jacking a fresh round in he ended up with two oversized bullets in the pipe, probably one shoved deep in the case. Firing that must have been an adventure.
The gun was not seriously damaged, though brass had cold flowed around the locking lugs. A gunsmith was able to get the brass out somehow ( I suspect he had to take the barrel off first to get at it, then probably chiseled away some and dissolved the rest with a solvent) and the rifle was good as new.

[jmoore]

Y'all Canadians ought to know more about Cooey, I thought I'd heard the name before, only it was associated w/ a Winchester .22" cal. trainer. Anyway, Mr. Chadwick, maybe you'll have a new entry for your 6.5 barrel data files.

[bearhunter]

There were actually a fair number of those rifles on the Canadian market in the mid seventies. They were marked 6.5 mannlicher on the barrel and with a British company stamp as well. Globe Firearms comes to mind.

[Patrick Chadwick]

OK Jmoore, now that you have repented of your sins, a financial penance is due - you are going to have to get some proper 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schönauer cases (Norma or RWS), bullets (round-nose flat-base will do fine - for instance the Hornadys, but in 264) and, what might really hurt, the die set. Then you can load for a classic hunting cartridge. The Sierra manual has some load data. The RWS load data is, not surprisingly, all for RWS powders.

Have fun, but go very cautiously with the loads - it sounds as if the chamber may already have been overstrained.

Patrick

[jmoore]

I think the chamber is fine for the cartridge for which it is actually intended! As noted above, the only caliber or any other marking is "6.5MM".
Dies and cases will be coming once the credit card is paid down a bit, I've been a bad boy these past few months (doing my part to keep the economy afloat, at least the local shops, anyways).

Always wanted a Mannlicher-Schoenauer, but this isn't quite what I had in mind!

BTW What would be really cool is the M-S "pistol" used in the Martin Caiden book "Ice Station Zebra". Read the book in high school but have yet to see a pistol so marked.

[smellie]

Tight bore? Right hand? Eight grooves? On a Carcano..... with double triggers?

Original Carcano long rifle model 1891, modded by H.W. Cooey on contract for the T. Eaton Co. of Canada in the late 1920s, early 1930s.

These things have a truly AWFUL reputation which is completely undeserved. In this part of the world,there are legends of truly devastating accidents with these rifles.... although I have never met any of the people involved, nor have I seen the resulting wreckage of man and Carcano. But then, I've only been here for 67 years! I suspect rather strongly that any accidents were the result of using the wrong ammunition or else just, "Well, Bob got one of these and he told me that his Uncle Jim was afeart of it so I got rid of the SOB right quick and them things is dangerous, kid, so get rid of it now an' git a thutty-thutty like ever-one else!"

BTW, most seem to be chambered for the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer round, which was the only 6.5 round available in Canada at that time. Thing is the MS and MC are just SO close that some rifles..... and many regular Carcanos..... will chamber both. If the Extractor has the round, you are safe to go. If it feeds up through the mag, the Extractor should be able to grab it. Problems can arise with single rounds tossed into the chamber...... as with any rimless cartridge.

Great little brush-buster!

Only possible mechanical problem: don't let the Cat get hold of that tiny screw which locks the barrel in place! It's in the bottom of the barrel Chamber section. Loc-Tite is your friend.

Horrible things ARE possible if you remove the Barrel Locking Screw and the Cat bats it under the fridge. If the Barrel turns outward (or is removed and not turned far enough back-in on replacement) it is possible to have a huge amount of clearance between the Bolt in forward position and the CHAMBER, leaving part of the CARTRIDGE COMPLETELY UNSUPPORTED. Being that Prairie farmers are inveterate tinkerers, I suspect that 1 or 2 incidents such as this well could have blackened the reputation of an otherwise fine little rifle.

I'm not really all that afraid of them. After all, I DO have three of them.

Good luck and have fun!
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[jmoore]

Tight bore? Right hand? Eight grooves? On a Carcano..... with double triggers? Original Carcano long rifle model 1891, modded by H.W. Cooey on contract for the T. Eaton Co. of Canada in the late 1920s, early 1930s.

Double triggers/ double set trigger would have been a big bonus. But this little bit of ugliness just has the military trigger. Had it out just yesterday, hoping there would be some redeeming feature that had been missed earlier. Nope. Horrid hack job of a rear sight. Hideous "Bubba" stock. Weirdly pitted bolt. Side of the receiver crudely drilled and tapped. Probably couldn't give it away as a complete rifle. Have yet to need any parts off of it...

[smellie]

I have just re-read this whole thread, jmoore, and I am surer (if that is a word) than ever that you have a COOEY CARCANO.

Proper Carcano rifling was 4 grooves only; the 8-groove barrel was Howard Cooey's claim to fame, so to speak. They used 8-groove barrels ven on their .22s, which were the overwhelming bulk of their production, and the things were accurate. Cooey .22s in the mid-1920s were priced at $6.25 and actually achieved some significant sales in the USA..... where you still could get a comparable Winchester for half that money. The 8-groove rifling was part of the reason and these little rifles are still accurate today, although modern ammunition is MUCH too fast for them. The rifling was not very deep in the .22s and modern super-speed bullets just blast through, tripping as they do so. As a result, the old Cooey .22s now are very much despised and disrespected. Feed them STANDARD-velocity or SUBSONIC ammunition, though, and you could be amazed. A friend has one and rates it up with his Winchester 52..... and nobody EVER said that a 52 could not shoot! BTW, their .25RF CANUCK model also has the 8-groove barrel; I have one here, just really short on ammo. It was a BALL to shoot.

But that is who made your barrel. Likely you will find that the original cleaning-rod hole in your stock has been patched with a piece of the original fore-end; this also was standard for these.

Is the trigger on yours very narrow? The set-trigger groups installed by Cooey were very narrow. Military trigger, by my lights, would be preferable.

BTW, I have been loading ammo for my Carcano Shorties with 4198 powder. Keeps the muzzle-blast down and a great improvement in accuracy; the powder burns IN the barrel and not out in the air, less bullet destabilisation on exit. Worth a try. I use 28 grains with a 140 flatbase for a starter load.

Hope this helps.
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[jmoore]

Maybe it's worth doing some photos, if the camera turns up!

Thinking on it, I seem to remember that a friend may have some sort of proper sporter stock, but it may be for an M1 Carbine- it's been so long I can't remember which of the two he already sold!

Is there any sort of decent peep sight made for these?

[smellie]

No decent peep sight made for these that I know of, although I do think you could get one of those old Lymans to fit onto the right side of the receiver.

They were actually rebuilt for shot-range bush guns and, for that, they work fine, although a single-notch open rear sight is not my idea as the best thing for a longer-range rifle.

They are actually a sporty little rifle which deserved a lot better than it got.

I have 3 of them here, now, in various states of decrepitude. Must do something about that one of these days. With a bit of luck and a lot of work, should be able to have all 3 working properly again.

I do not know of anyone who made a really decent stock for them, although perhaps one of the US makers from the 60s might still have one around. FAJEN used to make stocks for all the surplus rifles; they might be good for a try. The WOOD in the original stocks was decent quality but rather bland in appearance.

Run one with a 120 to keep the recoil down and it should be a great introductory centrefire rifle for a woman or a boy. Just remember to seat the slug 'WAY out!

Hope this helps.
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