Your Thoughs on a retro "rebuild"

[Mott]

Gents,
I wanted your thoughts on a project I am thinking about. I have a CMP IBM carbine with a Saginaw barrel on it. It is standard after war rebuild with the late features. I have an interest in the IBM as I used to work there so, This idea is personal in nature. So here it is: I would like to rebuild the carbine to WWII configuration. I have an IBM stock and hand guard to replace the present stock with already. I will need a flip rear sight, front barrel band, sling, oiler, push safety, and unfortunately a flat bolt as the CMP rifle came with a round M2 bolt. I do own a copy of War Baby so I can look up codes etc. I guess my questions are.
1) First off is this a stupid idea from the start?
2) The parts seem to be available but I will probably end up with 5-6 hundred $ in parts to prepare for the retro rebuild. Is it worth the $? Original, unmessed with carbines in original config tend to run into the multi thousands so even at this price point, it is less $ for me and I could still shoot her and not feel so guilty.
3) Would I be messing with the gun too much if I ever did wish to resell (e.g. any well read person would know it was a retro rebuild as the rear sight is of course heavily staked etc.)?

I mean I would use "real" original vintage parts and make as many of the parts IBM manufacture as I could find, so the rebuild would be "correct" in that sense. If my kids ever wanted to sell the piece after I went away I could have a build sheet for them. I know there is a lot of "junk" going on with any military collectables out there. The reason for this post in the first place is I do not want to be seen as one of "them" (buggers who mess with collectables) nor do I want to mess up a nice piece of history. Thanks for your thoughts.

Sincerely,
Mott

[Milsurp Collector]

Welcome to the forum!

Stupid idea? No. "Correcting" M1 Carbines and M1 Rifles is a popular pastime. It can be expensive and frustrating, but not stupid.

However, you have to realize three things: first of all, you are laboring under a misconception. It isn't necessarily true that "Original, unmessed with carbines in original config tend to run into the multi thousands" (by "multi thousands" I would assume you mean $2000 or more). Mint examples can certainly sell for over $2000, but others are available for under $2000:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=139552354
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=133412344
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=135140463
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=133917318

I saw an original Underwood at a local gun show for $1100, so they are out there. You just have to be patient, save up your money, and be ready with cash when you come across one.

Second, the parts you will need ("flip rear sight, front barrel band,... push safety") are rare and expensive if you can find them. There are way more fakes, er "reproductions", than originals out there for sale, so you are likely to end up paying a lot of money for Made in China parts to put on your currently all-American IBM.

Also, you would need to find an IBM barrel to make your IBM carbine "correct". Even if you find a decent IBM barrel for a reasonable price, then you have the expense of changing the barrel. You will also have to make sure your headspace is correct.

By the way, beginning around serial number 3744xxx IBM began using round bolts, round bolts are not "M2 bolts", and a round bolt might be correct for your particular IBM. If you are going to "restore" your carbine then correct reference sources are vital if you want to do a proper job. I suggest that you join the Carbine Club (http://www.carbineclub.com/), buy the back issues of the newsletter, and study newsletter #329.

Third, even if you are able to find genuine original early IBM parts to use, the final result still won't be the same or worth as much as a true original IBM carbine. A true original carbine has a patina that can't be duplicated by putting a bunch of "correct" parts together.

I think CMP carbines make great shooters and should be appreciated as such. Also, the carbine's service didn't end on September 2, 1945. Carbines that look just like yours does now served in Korea and beyond Does anybody else like late model features? - Military Surplus Collectors Forums (http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=13470)

So, you certainly can do whatever you want with your carbine, including "correcting" it. But I think that if someone wants a World War II-style M1 Carbine they should save up their money and get the real thing, rather than "restoring" an honest post-WW II (upgraded and improved) configuration carbine. Just my opinion. :)

[Bruce McAskill]

IBM didn't use the type 3 (round) bolt till late in the 3.8 to early 3.9 serial number range. The key to restoring a carbine is the dovetail for the rear sight is if it's been staked for the type 2 or 3 rear sights or not. If not staked then it would be a good one to restore. But as Milsurp stated it's expensive but can be very enjoyable.

[Milsurp Collector]

IBM didn't use the type 3 (round) bolt till late in the 3.8 to early 3.9 serial number range.

Carbine Club newsletter #329, page 5:

"The flat bolt was used to about 3744xxx. During a transitional period, 3744xxx-3849xxx, both flat and round bolts were used. After 3849xxx, round bolts were in general use until the end of production". ;):)

[Mott]

I have the same feelings as you seem to have, thus my hesitation to "fix" the IBM I have and the post to the Forum. The CMP IBM carbine I have is "perfect" as it is. I too like and appreciate the late features. There is just this nagging urge, if you will, to have one that is as issued in WWII. I need to think on it some more and make a decision. I have a "few" nice CMP examples perhaps acquiring another "original" is not so bad (elbow in ribs). I mean is there really such a thing as having too many carbines? I say loudly NO!
Has anyone dealt with Mr. Hadley lately? I purchased a nice IBM from him some time ago. I am not sure he is even in business anymore.
Finally, thoughts on Riverbank Armory for parts? Reputable?

Thanks again gents!
Mott

[phil441]

First of all, Welcome to the group!

"Finally, thoughts on Riverbank Armory for parts? Reputable?"

Most of us here have our thoughts about George, AKA Riverbank.

May I suggest you spend some time researching the forums before spending your money there?
In the meantime, enjoy what you've got.
Just a thought.

Phil

[Milsurp Collector]

I have the same feelings as you seem to have, thus my hesitation to "fix" the IBM I have and the post to the Forum. The CMP IBM carbine I have is "perfect" as it is. I too like and appreciate the late features. There is just this nagging urge, if you will, to have one that is as issued in WWII. I need to think on it some more and make a decision. I have a "few" nice CMP examples perhaps acquiring another "original" is not so bad (elbow in ribs). I mean is there really such a thing as having too many carbines? I say loudly NO!
Has anyone dealt with Mr. Hadley lately? I purchased a nice IBM from him some time ago. I am not sure he is even in business anymore.
Finally, thoughts on Riverbank Armory for parts? Reputable?

Thanks again gents!
Mott

I think if you save up your money and get a legit original World War II configuration carbine, the urge to "fix" your other carbines will miraculously dissipate and you will have a new appreciation for them. ;)

When I decided I wanted a Kar98k, I bought a "Russian Capture" (RC) Kar98k because they were easy to buy and affordable (just like CMP carbines), and matching number or mostly matching non-Sovietized Kar98k's seemed way too expensive, hard to find, and just unobtainable (like original World War II carbines seem to be now). But I wanted my RC Kar98k to be more "correct" (German) than the Sovietized mixmaster that it was, so I did what many people do: removed the Russian shellac from the stock, and bought replacements for the locking screws and cleaning rod that the Soviets removed and melted down. I even bought an ex-Norwegian Surrender Kar98k stock that had the "correct" Waffenamt stamps for my rifle.

But with time and patience and searching I began to get matching and mostly-matching non-RC Kar98k's, and my desire to "correct" my RC Kar98k completely disappeared. I removed the cleaning rod and locking screws I had added, because it is "correct" for a Russian Capture Kar98k to not have them. I am even going to re-shellac the stock because that is the "correct" finish for a Russian Capture Kar98k. Now that I have German configuration Kar98k's, my first Kar98k will take its rightful place in my collection as an example of a Russian Capture Kar98k. If I had just been more patient and left it alone, I would have had a 100% authentic Russian Capture Kar98k and all the money I wasted on the extra stock, cleaning rod, and screws. :o

Russian Capture Kar98k's and mixmaster carbines: they are what they are, and can be appreciated for what they are.

I have a World War II-configuration carbine, so I have no desire to downgrade/backdate my shooter CMP carbines. They are perfect examples of Korean War carbines (and I'm currently reading a great book about the Korean War) and I even upgraded them further with Type 5 operating slides (based on a recommendation posted by Newscotlander) and round bolts. I shot three of my carbines tonight to zero the sights. With my CMP Winchester I put the first five rounds in the black at 50 yards but to the left of center. I adjusted the windage one click right and the next five shots were in the bullseye. That's what these CMP carbines are: great shooters that also have history just the way they are. :)

http://i35.tinypic.com/2uhvo1t.jpg

Riverbank Armory? That's exactly how you end up spending a lot of money for fake parts in my opinion. Here's some interesting reading

CMP Discussion Forum - Riverbank Armory parts (http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=53039&SearchTerms=Riverbank)
CMP Discussion Forum - I got burnt hard by him (http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=53091&SearchTerms=Riverbank)
CMP Discussion Forum - Riverbank Armory carbine parts (http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=47120&SearchTerms=Riverbank)

[dbarn]

Cast my vote for leaving your present IBM as is. As stated above it would be difficult to match wear patterns even if you are able to find the correct USGI IBM parts. In regards to Charles Hadley, I have not had recent dealings with him but have had two carbines in the past that were described by him as completely original, only to find out later they were put-togethers with fake parts. Be careful who you deal with in regards to "original" carbines and parts. Many of us have learned our lessons the hard way.

[cafdfw]

I agree completely with Milsurp Collector and could not have said it better.

I wouldn't touch anything on your military rebuilt IBM.
To me it's 'Correct' as it is and these CMP carbines are prizes. They haven't been in private hands as most carbines that have been available for years with 'bubba' messing with them and people trying to 'restore' them etc. I'd rather have an original rebuilt carbine than any carbine that's been 'restored' in any way.

When these carbines became available it made the hair stand up on my neck reading that many new people started taking their new CMP carbines apart to replace parts before they even shot their new carbine. Parts that may have been original being replaced with fake parts, incorrect vintage parts, etc., ect. It takes a lot of research to know what is really correct and I think many CMP carbines have been ruined. - JMO :)

Everyone can do what they want with their own rifle. I guess I have different feelings about preserving the real history of a carbine and appreciate the opportunity CMP has provided to own a carbine just as it was in it's last military condition. I know how it is when you get your first carbine and you want to 'improve' it. I did the same thing on mixmastered carbines that had been in civilian hands for many years with all kinds of parts changed with fake parts etc and later regretted wasting money trying to 'improve' them. They are original only once. Later I bought a correct and authentic late Inland and appreciated it's authentic originality more than any carbine I had.

Sorry for the long post, but I would keep your IBM as it is and save your money you'd spend on parts to buy a carbine in the original condition you want.

Regardless what you do, I would never buy any part from Riverbank -
I dealt with him once when I first became involved and it was a nightmare. Fake part and he won't let you return anything. Very hateful person.

[kikokat]

To Milsurp, Bruce, David, Harlan, and all those who take the time to give thoughtful and thorough answers to questions on these forums. Kudos!

Your hard won experience is valuable to us all, but particularly the "newbies". Sadly, too many folks tend to blow off legitimate questions these days. Nice to see that most of the old hands are extremely helpful, as usual.

Thanks for taking the time to foster interest and knowledge in our addictive little hobby.

Regards,
Sloop

[rondog]

I recently bought an IBM carbine, s/n is 3706483, and it has an Underwood barrel dated 10/43. This rifle was purchased from the CMP by the guy I bought it from.

Can anybody tell me, by the s/n, the approx. date this rifle was made? And would the Underwood barrel be correct or a replacement? I don't know if IBM made their own barrels.

Thank you! This is my first M1 carbine, and I'm totally clueless about them. I don't have any reference books or anything yet, so I'd really appreciate knowing the manufacture date, if possible. About the only thing I DO know about it is that it's a real blast to shoot this little thing!!!

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/DSCN2460.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/DSCN2459.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/DSCN2454.jpg

[Milsurp Collector]

I recently bought an IBM carbine, s/n is 3706483, and it has an Underwood barrel dated 10/43. This rifle was purchased from the CMP by the guy I bought it from.

Can anybody tell me, by the s/n, the approx. date this rifle was made? And would the Underwood barrel be correct or a replacement? I don't know if IBM made their own barrels.

Thank you! This is my first M1 carbine, and I'm totally clueless about them. I don't have any reference books or anything yet, so I'd really appreciate knowing the manufacture date, if possible. About the only thing I DO know about it is that it's a real blast to shoot this little thing!!!



Made around October 1943.

IBM made their own barrels, so your Underwood barrel is a replacement. But, Underwood probably made the best carbine barrels, so if the muzzle wear is low you have a good one.

They are fun to shoot, aren't they! :thup:

[rondog]

Made around October 1943.

IBM made their own barrels, so your Underwood barrel is a replacement. But, Underwood probably made the best carbine barrels, so if the muzzle wear is low you have a good one.

They are fun to shoot, aren't they! :thup:

Thank you! Good to know. So the receiver is 10/43, and the barrel is too. Is it possible it was assembled with an Underwood barrel? At least I know it's a '43 model, a nice match for my '43 M1 Garand!

[Milsurp Collector]

Thank you! Good to know. So the receiver is 10/43, and the barrel is too. Is it possible it was assembled with an Underwood barrel?

No, just a coincidence. All known original IBM carbines have IBM barrels. There is no record of Underwood transferring barrels to IBM.

[imarangemaster]

I have been tempted to do a retro (with repro parts) with an Inland rack grade from CMP for giggles. I would never retro my Underwood with late features, though. I like the adjustable rear sight (mine is right on) the round Inland bolt, the type three band, etc. In fact, I just bought a birch SA pot belly stock to put it in so I can keep the WW2 stock in good shape. I actually like the feel of the pot belly stock better. Heftier. With the exception of the early Winchester that got away, all my carbines since 1985 or so (except this Underwood) have been pot belly stocks and late features.

Enjoy it for what it is: an improvement on the WW2 weapon. The improved ones that went to Korea, Vietnam, various European countries, and Israel.

[Milsurp Collector]

As said before, people can do what they want with their carbines. If someone really wants a World War II configuration carbine but doesn't want to spend $1000+, then do it on the cheap: get a rack grade CMP carbine, some repro parts that are sold as repro parts at repro part prices and have at it. From two feet away it will be look just like a World War II configuration carbine. Well, maybe 4 feet away if there is an obvious barrel shadow. I just wouldn't spend a lot of money on "correct" early parts that are likely to be fakes.

Just realize that switching the front band and rear sight isn't easy, and it is good insurance to use the proper tools. Front and rear sight tools run around $150 for the set.

[Mott]

Thanks to all for the information. It is interesting and useful! I know it is increasingly encumbant upon the buyer to know what they are purchasing. The market is a wash with fakes or retro rebuilds. So now my task is to find a real live WWII configuration IBM. I will keep my IBM CMP just the way it is.

Sincerely,
Mott

[Bruce McAskill]

Carbine Club newsletter #329, page 5:

"The flat bolt was used to about 3744xxx. During a transitional period, 3744xxx-3849xxx, both flat and round bolts were used. After 3849xxx, round bolts were in general use until the end of production". ;):)

The type 3 bolt didn't start into production till Feb./March 1944. During Dec. 7 through 15 1943 10 carbines were inspected then test fired for 6000 rounds. The highest serial number was 3844404.

[dbarn]

Mine was produced in Jan 44, and has a round bolt. Here's a couple of photos. The only carbine in the collection with provenance to a WWII Lt. Col., a pilot in the Army Airforce.
http://www.fototime.com/042F1A5E73A41CF/standard.jpg
http://www.fototime.com/A95DF92813785EC/standard.jpg

[painter777]

MAN,
It's sure nice seeing some pictures again !!

THANKS
Charlie