Questions about №4 MK I*

[dimon]

Good Day.

I've got a few questions about 1942 Savage №4 MK I* rifle.
First of all, it looks like that the rifle has been FTRd at some point, however it's not marked anywhere on the rifle( shouldn't really say that, since the rifle bears a post-1954 Birmingham Nitro proof mark). Also, the butt plate doesn't seem to be of the correct size (see pics)...The rifle is stamped with a letter "B" on its: forestock(also marked with "C" with the arrow inside and "KB" by the magwell, rear sight, barrel bands, fore sight...Question No1: What does "B", "KB" and C stand for? A British proof marks? Also, what does the arrow in a diamond shape stamping on a rear sight mean?
Is the bolt matching or force matched, since its missing letter "C" in between the numerals?
The rifle is also marked as "US Property" and has a 2 groove bright and shiny bore.

The main question: what's the value of this rifle?

Thank you.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2007/08/DSCN058120070809-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2007/08/DSCN058220070809-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2007/08/DSCN058320070809-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2007/08/DSCN058420070809-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2007/08/DSCN058620070809-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2007/08/DSCN058820070809-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2007/08/DSCN058920070809-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2007/08/DSCN059020070809-1.jpg

[tiriaq]

I don't know if the rifle was FTR'd somewhere (probably not in the UK), or if is just a parts gun. The wood would seem to be Canadian. Neither Savage nor Long Branch used brass buttplates. The proof marks were applied after the rifle was surplused.

[Badger]

Well, it appears to me to be a "parts" gun....

The "S" in a square box is the Savage maker's mark and the butt should not be brass, but rather made from a gray material (I forget the name of this stuff).

Examples:

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/britishservicerifles/1943savageno4mk156c6118/icons/DSC00133%20_Medium_.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/britishservicerifles/1943savageno4mk156c6118/icons/DSC00158%20_Medium_.JPGhttp://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/britishservicerifles/1943savageno4mk156c6118/icons/DSC00172%20_Medium_.JPG
************* (Click PICS to Enlarge) ****************

Are you sure that's a B on the underside of the stock rather than an L stamped over a B which is the marking for Long Branch (Canada). It's often mistaken for just a B, but look real close.

Although this is stamped on a rear sight, does the B look like this?

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/canadianservicerifles/1944no4mk122longbranch0l6064/icons/DSC04896%20_Medium_.JPG
(Click PIC to Enlarge)

If you want to compare your Savage Enfield against an "all correct" as originally issued one, go to the England - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here) (http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12) and view the 82 picture photo gallery montage for the 1943 Savage No.4 Mk1* Enfield Rifle (click here) (http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?p=1312).

As to value, I'd say she'd be classified as a "shooter" and not a "collectible", so if you got anything over 300 Cdn (including bayonet) for her, you should be very happy. ;)

Hope this helps... :)

Regards,
Badger

[dimon]

Now I can see, that what I thought is "B" on forestock is actually "LB". But "B" on the rear sight is definitely a "B"...

[Badger]

Now I can see, that what I thought is "B" on forestock is actually "LB". But "B" on the rear sight is definitely a "B"...

Roger that ... :thup:

In the interim, I found a better pic of the forestock with the L stamped over B....

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/canadianservicerifles/1945no4mk1tlongbranch90l8161/icons/DSC01997%20_Medium_.JPG

It's definitely a Long Branch part ....

If it's definitely a B on the rear sight, then it could mean it's a BSA (Shirley Plant) manufactured component. This mark was used by them from 1941-1955.

Regards,
Badger

[dimon]

Thank you, Badger. Excellent info!

[Badger]

Question No1: What does "B", "KB" and C stand for?

BTW, the KB stamp appears on a LOT of Long Branch wood, even the .22 caliber training rifles and also N0.4 Mk1(T) sniper rifles. The plain C also appears on some metal components and if you check out the photo montage of the 1943 Savage mentioned earlier, you'll see that marking on a few components. Personally, I believe these are Long Branch inspector's markings.

As a side note, you find a lot of these kinds of extraneous inspector markings on pre-1942 K98k Mausers as well. Inspector's marks without any further information being discovered as to who they actually were. Their names lost to history ... :)

Regards,
Badger

[stencollector]

I would guess that by the flat spot under the serial number, this rifle has been renumbered at one time. As such, the bolt may well be "force-matched", although I don't really like this term. Mind you, the serial on the bolt doesn't look very factory either. Satisfactory shooting can be achieved with a mismatched bolt provided the headspace is brought to specs.

Interesting marks on the rear sight. I don't recall seeing the broad arrow in a diamond before.

[Claven2]

Looks like a restored parts gun based on a barelled action that was arsenal renumbered to begin with. Has shooter value though, say, $250?

[tiriaq]

As such, the bolt may well be "force-matched", although I don't really like this term. Mind you, the serial on the bolt doesn't look very factory either.
Interesting marks on the rear sight. I don't recall seeing the broad arrow in a diamond before.

I, too, don't care for the term "force-matched". Its renumbered. Re-arsenaled is another of my pet peeves. The darn thing wasn't "arsenaled" in the first place. Factory refurbished, rebuilt, etc.
Whoever stamped the bolt either forgot the C character after doing the figures, or didn't have a set of letter stamps. Not likely in an institutional situation.
The diamond broadarrow is interesting. Would like to know its significance.
I would agree with Claven2's valuation.

[stencollector]

We have all seen enough Long Branch rifles use the upside down "7" as a "L" in the serial number on the bolt handle, so apparently even the factory did not always have the required stamps.

[The Queens Medalist 86,87]

I was a regular army weapons tech for 3 years of my military life, and did see upside down 7 for an L or other improvised methods. Why? Because our shop, representing all B.C. only had numbers stamp set. But we also had a state of the art engraving machine which was suppose to be for engraving #'s on arms. Thus if we did the above in early 90's then odds are other armourers did simular back to the 1940's.
Mismatching of parts Savage on Brit. etc. was the norm, as long as it worked.
KB was usually on the C#7 rifle forestocks as I recall.

[A square 10]

i may have missed it , but , it seems the "C"-arrow got overlooked - its canadian service mark , and the butt plate material is zamak or mazak depending on which side of the pond your on :) ,
that US PROPERTY mark is a lendlease thing that not all rifles had [depends on time of production , but is generaly a desireable mark on a savage rifle ,

[Maxwell Smart]

Looking at the picture of the backsight, I wonder if the mark is actually the BSA "3 rifles" logo - this would make sense of the capital "B" marking too.

Buttplate does look more like an SMLE one.

[K31]

Satisfactory shooting can be achieved with a mismatched bolt provided the headspace is brought to specs.


Headspace is only a secondary concern if the bolt is mis-matched. The locking lugs MUST be checked for equal bearing! I can't stress this enough, DON'T shoot a rifle with a mis-matched bolt until you know for CERTAIN that both lugs are doing their job! Especially so with a Savage made rifle, because some of them seem to be brittle. But this applies to any L-E rifle. I've seen quite a few rifles where only the small lug was bearing, and many more where only the rib was touching. This makes the action flex, and in some cases you can even feel it happen, when the non-bearing lug taps its recess. DANGEROUS! To check it yourself, remove the bolthead, and put something like lipstick on the backs of both locking lugs. I find LIQUID PAPER works well, but anything similar should work. Then, push the bolt all the way forward before turning it down. Now gently pull the bolt handle back, while pushing the bolt body back with your finger. Keep pushing the bolt back, while moving the handle up and down. Now, push the bolt forward, while lifting the handle. You can now see if both lugs are making contact. If not, then stone the lug that does make contact. Keep checking until both lugs make good contact. I wonder who invented that silly term, "force matching"? I hate it! It makes absolutely no sense!

[K31]

That buttplate is from an SMLE. You can tell from the little lip on the door, and the visible hinge pin. (looks like eyes).

[Gary D]

I agree that looks like a brass No1 butt plate slapped on.