Boat Tails!!!

[lngstrt]

No no! Not the 'will boat tailed ammo destroy my barrel' question. Well, not really. Well maybe just a vague passing reference to it :madsmile:

Prvi Partizan ammo gets high grades on all of the forums. But its all boat tailed, isn't it? All I see listed says FMJBT or SPBT.

And it works well ... no?

How about Wolf Gold? Out of the same factory room. Is it BT as well?

Just looked at the empty boxes and ... yes, all the Wolf G is labeled BT.

Rats :crying: Now I gotta go back and read all the threads on Boat Tails again.

:runaway:

[gunner]

Why the problems with boat tails ? I never shot a other bullet than BT and after thousands of rounds out of all my rifles ( including all my milsurps )there will be no problem. The PRVI ammo is the one that i use in my M1917, and the bore is shiney and looks like new.

Regards

Gunner

[rayg]

Just repeating from what I've read on various sites regarding boat tail bullets and throat wear if I remember right. Apparently a boat tail bullet will not bump up into the rifling like a flat based bullet will and if the boat tail bullet is undersize vs the bore, there is hot gas blow by causing undo wear in the throat. Apparently it's not as big a problem now days with modern powders and from what I understand from the articles, if the bullet/bore fit is good, there no problem, Ray

[gunner]

rayg,

one of my comrades had once a problem with his long swede. He used only the original swedish ex military ammo and his bore became a look like it had dandruffs. The steel was destroyed and the experts said it came from the very hot ammo. Not from the bullets, they fitted exactly. So my opinion is similar to yours, the powder is the bigger type of trouble.

Regards

Gunner

[bradtx]

That's been my experiance with two and five groove barrels, Ray. I have also read that two groove barrels are more sensitive to a BTs.

Brad

[gunner]

I shoot two of the two grooves. Till now i have no problems. I give my older milsurps once a year for a check to my gunsmith and he said the last time ( February of this year ) they looking much better than the hunters rifles he become for service. Hope that they will stay long in this condition.

Regards

Gunner

[Brian Dick]

Let me put the boat tail thread to rest. I learned this first hand shooting a Mk.1 Vickers MMG. If your barrel has been broken in and fired extensively with cordite ammo, the hot burning cordite will erode the throat or leade making the use of boat tail Mk.8Z, (boat tail bullet, Nitrocellulose powder), bullets unstable. I had a barrel obviously shot quite a bit with Mk.7 and when I switched to Mk.8Z, the bullets were ALL key holing at 100 yards. I installed/packed a new barrel and broke it in with Mk.8Z and it shot perfectly. The point being that many LE service rifles have been shot extensively with cordite ammo and the flat base Mk.7 bullet is simply going to perform better than the Mk.8 because of the wear present in the throat/leade from cordite. If boat tail bullets are unstable, switch to flat base bullets and the performance will improve.

I've always had good performance from Sierra Pro-Hunter 180 grain soft points, (FB), as I have their 174 grain Match Kings, (BT). The extra expense of the Match Kings simply isn't warranted unless you're shooting an excellent to new condition barrel. Just my 2 cents so take it for what it's worth.

[Parashooter]

The basic problem with the anti-boattail faction is that the "blow-by gas cutting" theory of barrel erosion sounds logical but just isn't supported by the extensive tests made over the years by some respected organizations with the resources to fire thousands of rounds through many barrels under controlled conditions. These tests uniformly demonstrate that erosion primarily affects the lands. Grooves remain largely unaffected long after the lands are seriously eroded.

If gas cutting were a significant factor, we would see more erosion in the grooves and less in the lands where the bullet is in full and early contact. Doesn't happen!

The actual mechanism of barrel erosion is well known. Bullet friction and, especially, hot gases following the bullet heat the surface of the barrel interior, causing microscopic cracks and flaking. Subsequent shots carry away little bits of steel, primarily where stress is most pronounced - on the lands close to the chamber.

[fishb01@yahoo.com]

The Boattail shape is meant for the round to have better stability at longer ranges and shouldn't have an effect on the barreling. Its an aerodynamic thing.

[Edward Horton]

The British Mk.8z was a rebated boat tail design and it was designed and chosen by the British for a reason.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Img023.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Img023-a.jpg

Corbin makes rebated bullet forming dies today for a reason.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/boattail.jpg

Lapua rebated boat tail bullets are preferred by shooting experts for accuracy and loooong barrel life………………

Now go the the shooting range and fire a flat base bullet and a boat tail bullet made by the same manufacture, shoot them both and then recover the fired bullets from the shooting mounds.

Examine these recovered bullets with a high power magnifying glass, the flat base bullet will be a tight fit and seal around the entire base and a perfect fit of the bore. The boat tail bullet will be “pinched” or smaller at the very base compared to further up the bullet body.

The tapered section of the boat tail bullet has more surface area than the flat base of the boat tail, guess which way the base of the bullet is also being pushed besides “down the barrel”.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/hornadyboattail.jpg

The rebated boat tail forms a much tighter seal at it base and seals the bore tightly.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/ABboattailbullet.jpg

American Politicians get paid by health insurance companies to be “anti-health care”

And gun writers get paid by bullet manufactures to write stories about boat tail bullets.

If a boat tail bullet does not fit the bore exactly you will have gas leakage, there is a reason why boat tail bullets shoot poorly in some barrels, where a flat base bullet shoots just fine.

When shooting pistol bullets and larger caliber rifle bullets you can actually see the once flat base of the bullet become concave or bowl shaped at its base as pressure distorted and pushed the base of the bullet outward to seal the bore.

You and I with a newly manufactured hunting rifle will probably never see a difference between a flat base bullet and a boat tail bullet and barrel wear. BUT, also remember the rebated boat tail bullet was designed for a reason and the British military used it for a reason.

[Pelago]

super informative post!!

[Edward Horton]

Trying very hard to not scare the flora and the fauna “again”. :rolleyes:

If you don't like Prvi Parizan boat tails..........Just buy new Prvi empty cases and load flat base bullets.

As you can see below I shoot and reload BOTH types.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6206.jpg

[fishb01@yahoo.com]

I continue to learn. Thank You Mr. Horton

[Bindi2]

Why is the Mk7 still king @ 1000yds. Highland 174gn BT ( privi ) run thru a die to open the base out to a Mk7 spec for those rifles that dont like BTs. The Mk7 is really an open base not a flat base. I have picked up many projectiles from the butts and can say that the open based BTs dont swell enough to have the same bearing surface as a Mk7.The flat based projectiles have to be a little larger than Mk7 to work as well

[fishb01@yahoo.com]

The rebated boat-tail is a great round design. It has the advantages of both a flat base and Conventional boat -tail. The advantage of the conventional boat-tail is seen at long ranges. Its designed to reduce drag and has the advantages of higher velocity and energy at the longer ranges compared to the flat base design. Its disadvantage is, as Mr. Horton said, The gas passes over the round, often causing the Conventional boat-tailed round to fly through its own muzzle blast. The thing to keep in mind is that you normally dont see the advantages of the conventional boat-tail until it passes from the supersonic state to the subsonic state. (read- Extreme Long Distance).

[lngstrt]

Well ... didn't expect two pages :D

Thanks all.

Bottom line ... I ain't gonna worry about it. I have about 120 Prvi/Wolf/nny/PPU cases from about ... maybe 5 different rifles. I keep them separate and just neck re-size. I'll keep buying new and reload what I have and be happy.

:super:

[JBS]

In addition to the excellent information provided by Mr. Horton one must also look at the ordinance steel used by the various countries and classes of arms. 4140, 4145, and 4150 ordinance steels are the three most common. 4140 is the cheapest, easiest to machine but has the least resistance to flame cutting and erosion. 4150 is hard to machine but has a very high resistance to wear, heat, and erosion. 4145 is a compromise. 4150 is spec in weapons with a high cyclic rate of fire. A clear example of the difference of these steels can be seen and felt by trying to deflect the barrel of a unstocked Garand and an unstocked Enfield. The Enfield barrel will deflect much more than the Garand. I do not have the spec info for the Enfield but perhaps the good Captain will weigh in with the number. I am thinking it maybe around 4140 or a bit less, 4135. 4150 is by design much more immune to the effect of gas leakage around boat tail bullets. Another issue that comes up with 2 land 2 groove barrels and BT bullets I think has more to do with dimensions, bullet upset, and bearing surface. Of the limited number of these barrels I have examined or been given the info on they fall into the dimensions of .3055 to .307 bore and 316 to 318 groove. Even for a bullet as large a .312 the full bearing surface is needed for there to be enough material to be upset to fill the .316 to .318 groove. If a BT is used the amount of available material to be swedged to fill the groove is reduced and blow by happens. With the colder burning powders now used this may not cause erosion like that of the past but the blow by cuts the bullet jacket and more importantly vents the muzzle beside the bullet causing pressure zones that tip the bullet off axis and cause erratic bullet flight.

[Alan de Enfield]

Specification No S.A./462 P, being for Rifle's No1 Mklll, with bantam long, normal and short butt (S.M.L.E., .303-in. With cut-off.)

Refers to 57/Spefns/3866 Approved 14. 12. 1938

Received by somebody careless on 19 JUN 1939

And it says:

Body -- Steel. B.S.S.5005/401 -- Partially oil hardened, tempered and browned.

Barrel -- Steel. D.D.8 -- (Heat treated)

Bolt, Breech -- Steel. D.D.8 -- Oil-hardened, tempered, polished and browned or oil-blacked.

Head, breech bolt -- Steel B.S.S.5005/103 -- Case hardened and polished

Further, on page 8 it states: "If the bolt-head be made of mild steel it is to be marked with the letter "M" on the top of the wing."

NOTE: earlier specifications (S.A./242 for Rifle, Short, Magazine, Lee-Enfield (Mark 1). |C.|) 13th July 1903, called for the bolt-head to be made from malleable cast-iron, specifically 34F Special gun iron, case hardened.

Regarding barrel proof, refer to page 12:
(g) Proof. - The barrel will be submitted with the action attached for proof. The distance from end of bolt to face of barrel will be tested with a cartridge head gauge .067-inch. The proof will then be carried out with a proof cartridge, the charge being about 33 grains of No.3 cordite, having a service bullet of 215 grains, giving a mean pressure not below 24 tons per square inch, after which the action will be examined; and the barrel, body, and bolt head will be marked with the proof mark."

Yes there is that problem about what a material actually is. In an annexe to Specification No.S.A./242 for the MK1 SMLE, 13th. July 1903, there are descriptions of various materials.

For example:

""Iron, Gun, Special"

The iron must be clean, ((free from all impurities (struck out)) and free from small "greys". as the slightest imperfection shows irself when the material is polished and case hardened.

The ultimate tensile strength per square inch must not be less than 22 tons, with a minimum permanent elongation of 12 per cent. and a minimum contraction of area at point of fracture of 45 per cent.

The material for the screws, butt plate, must be cold drawn."

(Not much to go on there!!)

This material is specified for:

Bolt head,
Bolt head charger guide (remember, this is a Mk1 SMLE)
Bolt, stock
Washer, stock bolt.



However, the bolt body is to be made from Steel, 56A 42.

"Specification O.F., 56A 42

To be cast steel, free from seams and flaws, to harden in oil, and temper suitably for these components.

An analysis of the steel should show a composition as follows:-

Carbon ... ... ... from 0.67 to 0.77 per cent.
Silicon ... ... ... " " 0.15 " 0.25 " "
Manganese ... ... " " 0.80 " 1.00 " "
Phosphorus ... ... not to exceed 0.04 " "
Sulphur ... ... ... " " " 0.04 " "
Copper and other impurities, only traces.

To contain no special ingredient such as chromium, nickel, etc. without intimation of their presence.

Standard test pieces, four inches long, will be made from various bars selected indiscreiminately.

The result of such test to be as follows:-

Yield point per square inch ... ... not below 26 tons.
Ultimate stress per square inch ... " " 55 "
Extension per cent. in four inches ... " " 11
Contraction at area per cent. ... ... " " 20

All steel employed in fulfilling this specification must be manufactured from Swedish or other high class approved ores only.

56A 42 was also used for:
Aperture sight
Barleycorn, foresights
Catch, magazine
Cocking piece
Locking bolt
Locking bolt safety catch
Sight, back, slide catch
Trigger

The 1921 drawing for the bolt head refers to a specification document, S.A./1117 B, R.S.A.F. 3095(1) which, unfortunately, I do not have.

The drawing has a number of interesting details:

1. The rear of the threaded portion still shows the notch for the early type striker as opposed to the later and better known "Striker B".

2. The material is simply noted as being "wrought iron, or mild steel, case hardened and polished"

3. Referring to the qualified 20 TPI threaded section: "NOTE! For spares - Qualify between 9deg and 13deg in advance of new component".

There are components and components, obviously.

Not only all that, but in the good old days, before fancy pyrometers and other nifty toys, "Cherry red" on a heat treatment specification could be quite different between day shift on a sunny day and the night shift or on a heavily overcast day. And doing this work under war time duress could easily account for such nasties as the "burnt" and extremely brittle cocking pieces occasionally found on No4 rifles, amongst other things.

[Badger]

Trying very hard to not scare the flora and the fauna “again”. :rolleyes:

Thank you Ed ... ;)

Regards,
Badger

[Edward Horton]

Regarding barrel proof, refer to page 12:
(g) Proof. - The barrel will be submitted with the action attached for proof. The distance from end of bolt to face of barrel will be tested with a cartridge head gauge .067-inch. The proof will then be carried out with a proof cartridge, the charge being about 33 grains of No.3 cordite, having a service bullet of 215 grains, giving a mean pressure not below 24 tons per square inch, after which the action will be examined; and the barrel, body, and bolt head will be marked with the proof mark."


Alan thank you for posting the above information, more of the Enfield puzzle is coming together. In my collection of Enfield data it stated that if the bolt closed on a .067 head space gauge after firing the proof test round, the rifle failed proof testing due to excess bolt setback. An oiled cartridge DOUBLES the force placed on the bolt when firing a cartridge.

24 tsi (tons per square inch) equals 60,000 CUP to 65,000 CUP in American radial copper crusher proof pressure testing methods with an oiled proof test cartridge.

18.5 tsi or normal operation cartridge pressure = 46,000 CUP (American pressure testing method)

Cartridge Pressure Standards (http://kwk.us/pressures.html)

"In Britain, a third set of crusher standards were developed, using a "base" crusher. The crusher was a short, thick tube placed behind a piston at the base of the cartridge, and the firing pin passed through the center. The cartridge case was well oiled before firing, to minimize cling to the chamber walls (if not oiled, the indicated pressures were about 25% lower). To prevent case rupture on set back of the base, the crusher was first deformed in a press to a pressure a bit lower than that expected in firing. The units were generally stated in British long tons per square inch, or tsi. Pressures indicated by this method run 10 to 20% below those indicated by radial crushers.(U.S. testing method) Kynamco in England still rates their production cartridges with this method. (axial or base crusher method)"

British long ton multiply by 2240 plus multiply again by 1.1 to .1.2 to convert to American copper crusher pressure figures.

Below, ever wonder "why" American .303 cases fall apart when loaded to over 43,000 CUP? Hodgdon, Remington, Winchester pamphlet reloading pressures figures.

I call this the “British Axial Enfield Inch” ;)

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/maxpress-a.jpg

[Edward Horton]

Ed wrote: Trying very hard to not scare the flora and the fauna “again”.



Thank you Ed ... ;)

Regards,
Badger

“No.4 mk1 Beech Woodwork needs staining to match, any idea's?”
But I gave Neal455 my grandmother’s recipe for dying Enfield stocks with beet juice and “YOU” deleted it. :bitch:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/beetjuice.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/a-Enf-4o.jpg

:rofl:

[gunner]

Mmmhh! So exquisite....... i mean the eggs! The rest has an bit of poofy touch !!! Photoshop, Ed ?

Regards

Gunner

[lngstrt]

160 rounds Prvi 174 grain .... on the way from Aimsurplus:thup:

[jmoore]

In addition to the excellent information provided by Mr. Horton one must also look at the ordinance steel used by the various countries and classes of arms. . A clear example of the difference of these steels can be seen and felt by trying to deflect the barrel of a unstocked Garand and an unstocked Enfield. The Enfield barrel will deflect much more than the Garand.

The difference in deflection, if any, would be due to dimensional variances rather than steel type or heat treat. The modulus of elasticity for most all steels is pretty much identical. Changing heat treat or alloy WILL affect failure points and life, though.

[JBS]

You are correct, the deflection test was a poor choice to demonstrate, but was within the average shooters ability to feel the difference in steel “ character “. If the specs of D.D.8 are indeed
Carbon ... ... ... from 0.67 to 0.77 per cent.
Silicon ... ... ... " " 0.15 " 0.25 " "
Manganese ... ... " " 0.80 " 1.00 " "
Phosphorus ... ... not to exceed 0.04 " "
Sulphur ... ... ... " " " 0.04 " "

I would think the absence of Chromium - Molybdenum in the alloy above is why the LE barrels were prone to accelerated throat erosion and flame cutting. JMHO

[Edward Horton]

JBS

The British started using their own smokeless powder recipe that didn’t require royalty payments to Alfred Nobel. The cost of World War One impoverished Britain on top of its massive war debt to the U.S. and therefore Britain kept making its own brand of powder as a cost saving measure.

If it had been possible and the British had invented a slower burning powder, barrel wear, throat erosion and the Enfield rifle we know today would not be the subject here today.

We would be talking about the .276 Enfield, barrel wear, throat erosion and boat tail bullets.

You could say the effects of a world wide depression after WWI and Britain’s massive debt to the U.S. along with the collapsing world wide currencies caused, barrel wear and throat erosion.

On the bright side not one of my British Enfield rifles has ever complained to me about cordite powder, marmite, vegemite or tea and crumpets……………

BUT they do sometimes spit out a boat tail bullet going sideways…………….

And that’s because the Enfield rifle was designed to shoot flat base bullets with cordite powder and a boat tail bullet will NOT upset and fill the bore on an Enfield rifle that has fired cordite ammunition.

RTFM

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Img001-2.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Img079.jpg

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/Img080.jpg

According to my Powleys Pocket Powder Computer that uses a DuPont-IMR powder scale for burning rates, a powder in the burning rate class of IMR-4064 should be used in the Enfield rifle today. Cordite powder burns faster than IMR-3031 and the pressure and temperature curve peak much sooner than IMR-4064.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/powley.jpg

Now excuse me I have to go now, I’m forming up a new Home Guard Division and its time for tea.





Cut and paste, cut and paste it never ends………………:rolleyes:








http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/homeguard.jpg

[JBS]

JBS

RTFM



You really think that was necessary

[Edward Horton]

JBS

My apologies, my two dyslexic fingers have problems writing what I’m actually thinking sometimes or what is bouncing around inside my head.

Also when I’m writing I know a world wide audience will be reading these postings and my posting should have been addressed “To whom it may concern” and not to you JBS, so again please do not take what I wrote the wrong way.

You were talking about barrel metallurgy and what if, and I was talking about the barrels and bullets we actually have.

The “absence of Chromium – Molybdenum”, the Great War, the War debt and the use of a fast burning powder makes boat tail bullets fly sideways in the Enfield rifles we have today.

And Ed and JBS can’t change the bullet path no matter how much Carbon, Silicon, Manganese, Phosphorus or Sulphur were used in these old Enfield barrels.

I apologize JBS, as soon as I read your posting I realized you were wishing I was someplace very, very hot and smelled of sulpher…………………………

The RTFM was addressed to anyone who had never read the manuals I donated to this website and not to someone who eats donuts and likes the Enfield rifle. :o Your good people JBS and again I apologize, it was my two rambling dyslexic fingers fault. :surrender:

Signed
Ed Horton
"Trying very hard to not scare the flora and the fauna"

P.S. JBS, I will give you the advantage from now on in all your postings………….

You can have the Canadian snipers below with their No.4 (T) sniper rifles and hand picked ammunition. :D

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/scout.jpg

[JBS]

Glad I mis-under-estimated what you were saying. :beerchug:

Yes, I was speaking of “I Wish” they would have been able to use a higher grade of alloy that resisted the effects of high temp cordite. It would make things better at the range some times. I also wish somebody would make a REPRODUCTION MK 7 bullet in the .311 to .312 range for us to reload with ! Hope you have a good evening.

[Edward Horton]

A non-Enfield barrel and bullet story

I bought a 1943 30-06 Remington 03-A3 in the mid 1970s because I needed a good “beater rain gun” for deer hunting. At 100 yards it averaged 5 to 6 inch groups with flat base bullets, if you shot boat tail bullets in the 03 you were lucky if they hit the paper sideways at 100 yards.

One day by dumb luck I decided to use some of my 30-30 bullets to see how 170 grain flat point 30-30 bullets would shoot in my 30-06. The group size went to less than 1 inch and I almost messed my pants but I didn’t argue with success.

My 03-A3 barrel slugged out at .313 in the throat, .309 in the middle and .312 at the muzzle. The Hornady 170 grain bullets miked .308 behind the crimping groove and .300 just in front of the crimping groove.

These 30-30 bullets shot so well because they were designed for the 30-30 Winchester and its lower velocities. These 30-30 bullets shot so well because the lead core in the 30-30 is softer than the lead core in the 30-06.

These 30-30 bullets shot so well because when fired and kicked in the a$$ the soft lead core of the bullet allowed the bullet to enlarge or upset and fill the larger bore of my well worn 30-06 rifle.

My Springfield 03-A3 30-06 NEVER fired cordite ammunition in its lifetime and it wasn’t made in England and it hated boat tail bullets, go figure.

Boat tail bullets won’t work in any caliber barrel if the barrel is worn and larger than the bullet diameter no matter what country it was made in.

DON’T blame the Enfield rifle, you bought a used military rifle that had been in a few wars and not a brand new Remington 700.

My first love affair………………. a 30-30 magnum :D

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/03-A3.jpg

[jmoore]

I'm thinking that the lead core in either 30-30 or 30-36 was fairly pure lead wire, esp, in the '70s. I suspect, however, the jacket thickness of the 30-30 bullets was thinner, allowing for easier base upset.

Feel free to smack me upside the head if you can prove me wrong, Mr. Horton! As long as its at least somewhat useful info, its part of the fun.

[JBS]

There is a great deal to be said for thin or J4 jackets and their ability to upset and fill the bore. The fellows that swedge their own bullets using expanded 22 LR empty cases for jackets have a great deal of luck with upset and bore fill. I just don’t need another hobby ( JOB ) of making custom $$$ jacketed bullets, casting is enough. Changing the subject just a bit doesn’t it just drive you nuts when you get a rifle in the shop that has a true, real live, SEWER PIPE barrel and the stinking thing shoots under MOA and defies all logic and physics as you understand it. :bitch:

[Edward Horton]

I'm thinking that the lead core in either 30-30 or 30-36 was fairly pure lead wire, esp, in the '70s. I suspect, however, the jacket thickness of the 30-30 bullets was thinner, allowing for easier base upset.

Feel free to smack me upside the head if you can prove me wrong, Mr. Horton! As long as its at least somewhat useful info, its part of the fun.

Jmoore

In the 1970s they took the lead out of gasoline and put it in our bullets.

The deer I shot with these 30-30 bullets died of high octane lead poisoning and didn’t have time to complain about bullet construction.

So you are saying the lead core in the 500 grain .458 bullet below for shooting a Tyrannosaurs Rex, a Wooly Mammoth or rats in New York City has the same lead core as the 30-30 bullet on the right ???

I thought I read that the lead core alloy also changed with velocity and bullet weight but I “might” have my bullet casting alloys filed in the wrong area of my beautiful mind.

P.S. "You may fire when ready, Gridley." I “might” have short term memory loss, long term memory loss, plus Alzheimer's, but I’m still better looking than you are. :D

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/IMGP6268.jpg

[Edward Horton]

There is a great deal to be said for thin or J4 jackets and their ability to upset and fill the bore. The fellows that swedge their own bullets using expanded 22 LR empty cases for jackets have a great deal of luck with upset and bore fill. I just don’t need another hobby ( JOB ) of making custom $$$ jacketed bullets, casting is enough. Changing the subject just a bit doesn’t it just drive you nuts when you get a rifle in the shop that has a true, real live, SEWER PIPE barrel and the stinking thing shoots under MOA and defies all logic and physics as you understand it. :bitch:

I had a custom Texas .500 Smith and Wesson come into the shop the other day smoking badly, once I got the proper draft set and changed the BBQ sauce everything was “cookin’.

P.S. The barrel didn’t have any rifling left at all and was burned totally black. :rolleyes:

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/BBQ-d.jpg

[JBS]

Now that funny right there, I don’t care who you are.
I couldn’t afford a round to fire it !
Somebody has way to much time on their hands.

[ireload2]

I think the effects of the length of a boat tail bullet are being confused with the effect of the boat tail.
"Short" as in round nose will often out shoot pointed bullets too. But it has nothing to do with the base design.

[jmoore]

Mr Horton, today the bullet mfg's tweak just about everything in their premium lines, but, yes, aside from the wire size, the composition of the lead in "standard" bullets is about the same- basically pure Pb. Makes it easier to swage into the final bullet form. Jacket construction is more often changed to optimize terminal preformance.

Cast bullets are a completely different animal.

I think that in the standard '03a3 barrel twist of 1 in 10" the shorter bullet factor wouldn't be a big influence, if anything that twist is a bit fast to begin with.

[milprileb]

Okay, I bite. Where does one find rebated bullets to reload with?

[jmoore]

Lapua Bullets! They can be found w/ a bit of searching, but don't know if they come in the .331-.312" size. .308" yes!

Pic in this post:
Greek 303 Ammo - Page 4 - Military Surplus Collectors Forums (http://milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=17168&page=4) Click on that mess.

[Edward Horton]

Okay, I bite. Where does one find rebated bullets to reload with?

Milprileb

I bought a 1000 .311 Russian pulls not knowing that they were steel core boat tails, the only Enfield’s they shoot well from are my Enfield’s with new or slightly used barrels.

My well used 1943 Maltby with a two groove barrel likes to shoot these Russian boat tails sideways. I use these Russian pulls for fire forming cases, as any newly manufactured flat base bullet out shoots them hands down.

Out of curiosity I just ordered some FMJ Prvi Parizan .303 ammo from AIM to see if it had a rebated boat tail.

Prvi Partizan .303Brit 174grn FMJ

New Production .303 British ammunition by Prvi Partizan (PPU) of Serbia. Features a 174grn Full Copper Jacketed Lead Core bullet, Brass Case, and Non-Corrosive Boxer Primer. Packaged 20rds to a box, and 500rds (25 boxes) to case.

At the Prvi Partizan website it states it sells military ammunition

PPU Rifle, Light Machine Gun And Machine Gun Ammunition

303 British Ball, Mk-7z
303 British Ball, Mk-8z

The Prvi site also states it sells components, cases, bullets etc. and their .303 boat tail sure looks like a rebated boat tail design.

http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/bigedp51/prvi-2.jpg

When the Prvi .303 ammo arrives I will pull a bullet and keep you informed.

[gunner]

Hi, Ed and milprileb,

you should also try the S&B 180grs. FMJBT`s i got 1000 for €164,-. They are very accurate and differs only 2grs in max. .

Regards

Gunner

[Edward Horton]

Hi, Ed and milprileb,

you should also try the S&B 180grs. FMJBT`s i got 1000 for €164,-. They are very accurate and differs only 2grs in max. .

Regards

Gunner

Gunner

How does your S&B hold up as far as reloading life compared to other brands of cases that you have reloaded.

(Or are you rich and just toss your brass) :crying:

[gunner]

Hi Ed,

i use only the bullets from S&B. The cases are PRVI and they are longlife. I use the same 300 pieces that i bought 3 years ago. With few losses. The S&B cases are not good, i used some in my .357mag and they splitted after the 2nd time of reloading.:yikes: I dont want to use it for my rifles. And Ed, i am not rich i am a reloader.;) When i get rich i`ll use Lapua cases not only for my sniper.

Regards

Gunner

[Edward Horton]

Hi Ed,

i use only the bullets from S&B. The cases are PRVI and they are longlife. I use the same 300 pieces that i bought 3 years ago. With few losses. The S&B cases are not good, i used some in my .357mag and they splitted after the 2nd time of reloading.:yikes: I dont want to use it for my rifles. And Ed, i am not rich i am a reloader.;) When i get rich i`ll use Lapua cases not only for my sniper.

Regards

Gunner

Gunner

You had me worried, I thought you might be living in the “old” Communist East Germany and were sharing “communal” brass with everyone in your shooting commune.

Dasvidania Comrade Gunner :D

[gunner]

Ed,

no i am not living at there and share cases for toilettpaper or bananas. But it is a good idea for an poor little bavarian shooter like me. Do you have some new PRVI rounds, i give you my old ones and a sedative tablet to make the bad deal a bit easier for you! ;-)

Regards, and bavarian : Servus

Gunner

[Bindi2]

Ed
We get Privi under the Highland brand in Aussie head stamped nny. Made in Serbia by PPU

The 174gnBT looks just like the Mk8z projectile. Just need a die to do away with the BT and we will have Mk7 174gn FMJ.:D

[warning5]

Yesterday I shot my no.4 mk.1 in a military shoot match.Only SMLE guns were used and I shot hand loads 174 boat talls and the old girl did just fine.Out of possible 300 she shot 298 Not bad for BOAT TALES !:super: