enfield proofmark

[scvpiper]

Great site everyone. After reading for hours I have a couple marks I cant figure out. No4 mk1* savage. I figured out the FTR but there is a B stamp below that and a star stamp on the barrel.
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/12/0182-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/12/0281-1.jpg

[krinko]

The "FTR over B" mark is a BSA rebuild mark for rifles done on behalf of the MoD---as opposed to those done for foreign contracts, like the Mk1/2 and 1/3 conversions.
The star mark is not clear enough to comment on.
-----krinko

[Peter Laidler]

Might I suggest that the FTR over the B is a BSA FTR mark, but not for the Government, in a government factory, but done commercially by the privately owned BSA factory on a commercial basis for a foreign government. These BSA FTR marks were found in large numbers on the No4 (and 5) rifles being FTR'd at the large Base workshops in Singapore for the Pacific Rim nations having their kit FTR's there prior to the British pulling out in the very early 70's. Because the previous work was undertaken commercially, you'd find commercial proof marks on it whereas with our weapons or other government supplied weapons, it'd just carry the Military Proof

Government work was done at the government facories which they were keen to keep in work while the commercial work for overseas buyers/governments, including a lot of 'Crown Agents' work was done by the trade, including BSA and another large Bren machine gun repair organisation, Westly Richards. These weapons were commercially proofed. Is that a commercial proof on the rifle in question?

[bradtx]

scvpiper, Welcome to the forum, 'till me you've had a couple of the best forum members reply.

FTR is Ministry of Defense (MoD) speak for rearsenal and means Factory Thorough Repair. The BSA FTR stamp is much less common than one from Fazakerley, a Royal Ordinance Factory. I can't make out the barrel stamp either.

Brad

Brad

[krinko]

Nothing like putting your foot in it to make one examine what's on said foot---and thus is knowledge advanced.
I should have looked more closely at the one I have here----Fazakerley parts from '51 and a "52" on the leftside buttsocket put it right in the same date range as the first of the 1/2 and 1/3 conversions. I'd thought it was earlier.

Still not clear on how the "commercial" contract thing worked-----back in 1952 wasn't the No4 still the main battle rifle of the British Army?
How would BSA have obtained these rifles without being hand-in-glove with the MoD?

Prior to WW2 the BSA foreign contract/civilian rifles are easy to spot---they were made for the contract, not pulled from military stores and sport the crowned "BM" proof, without the military mark---but there's nothing like that on the No4 line as far as I have seen. (With the exception of the solitary No5 receiver I have).
I don't know about the UK, but here in the USA there are rafts of No4 rifles carrying the British commercial proofs, with and without FTRs and often with very little evidence of military proof at all...crude crossed pennants scratched into a bolthead or on the underside of the bolt handle, occasionally.
So it would be very hard to say---"Yes this is a commercial contract rifle because it has no military proof."

One path is: Foreign government>British arms dealer>UK proof house>American importer>me.
Another path now:British government>BSA>UK proof house>foreign government>?>me.

Bah--I'm going to go dig out. The snow is two feet up on my damned door.

Any clarification would be helpful.
-----krinko

[Edward Horton]

Mr. Laidlers comments reminds me of the old Texaco TV commercials……

You can trust your car to the man who wears the star (Enfield Armourer’s star) :D

[scvpiper]

I also posted this on another forum I frequent and found out about the star.
Ownership/acceptance mark for Indonesia.
page 31 of Stratton's book on No 4 and No 5 rifles.
Now I think I fount a new book to buy

[Edward Horton]

Edited by Moderator ....

Deleted extraneous off topic an completely over the top content and pics .... :slap:

[krinko]

scvpiper,
Don't count on that being an Indonesian mark----
Take a look at this "Star with a W in it" and see if the marks on your barrel might match.
The one in the first photo is in wood, but the majority of these were on the receiver ring. The marks in steel are almost always partial, unclear or chattered---like yours are.
Orientation is always one point down, two points up---which seems to resemble those that you have.
So far, nobody knows who made these.
-----krinko
Wood:
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/09/36126785-1.jpg

Steel:
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/12/211965546-1.jpg

[scvpiper]

Youre right. There is a W in the stamp. I hate double stamps!! I went over the barrel and reciever and was suprized at the amount of stamps. Next to the star stamp on the barrel is a 8A. Found another B stamp below the ser.#. I will play with the macro settings on my camera to get the other stamps online. Thanks again guys!!

[Edward Horton]

I see double and triple stamps but don’t see the letter “W” and star orientation is a big “if”.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/12/starc-1.jpg

[Peter Laidler]

From my experience of Indonesian kit, certainly the stuff captured by us in Borneo, then it's just TOOOOOO good for their stuff. At that time they lacked paint, oil and cleaning kits!

[armabill]

On my No.4 Mk1* , I have a only a D on the barrel flat and nothing else on the 2 groove barrel except up near the muzzle where the bayonet attaches. There I have a P and another P is on the bolt head.

I also have a 4 on the right side of the stock socket and nothing else there.

Anyone have any ideas what they mean?

[Simon P]

scvpiper,
Don't count on that being an Indonesian mark----
Take a look at this "Star with a W in it" and see if the marks on your barrel might match.
The one in the first photo is in wood, but the majority of these were on the receiver ring. The marks in steel are almost always partial, unclear or chattered---like yours are.
Orientation is always one point down, two points up---which seems to resemble those that you have.
So far, nobody knows who made these.
-----krinko
Wood:
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/09/36126785-1.jpg

Steel:


http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/12/211965546-1.jpg

I also had a Savage with the same marking on the receiver ring

[Alan de Enfield]

On my No.4 Mk1* , I have a only a D on the barrel flat and nothing else on the 2 groove barrel except up near the muzzle where the bayonet attaches. There I have a P.

I also have a P on the right side of the stock socket and nothing else there.

Another P is on the bolt head.

Anyone have any ideas what they mean?

If its a capital D in a circle that means 'draw lapped barrel'

A capital D (on its own) "New standard of finish for bore" (have not got a clue what that means !!)

[Simon P]

Forgot to add that my Savage was converted to the Mk1/3 but had no marking to indicate this upgrade.

[Thunderbox]

I think Peter mentioned that "W in a star" was a Woolwich inspection mark, and not Weedon, which was another possibility.

[armabill]

If its a capital D in a circle that means 'draw lapped barrel'

A capital D (on its own) "New standard of finish for bore" (have not got a clue what that means !!)

It's just a capital D on it's own.

[Badger]

I don't think it's Weedon either .... :thup:

In reference to the W.R.S. (Weedon Repair Standard) sub-contractors. Referring to Ian Skennerton's book "The Broad Arrow", a rifle having undergone W.R.S. repairs, may be identified by a six (6) pointed star stamped into the wood, with a letter stamped underneath it indicating the specific sub-contractor who did the work. For example, the pics below of 1944 M47c (BSA Shirley) No.4 Mk1(T) has no S51 stamped under the butt, however, the butt itself was changed during a visit to for W.R.S. work to W.W. Greener, as indicated by the six (6) pointed star and the letter V, which was their sub-contractor code letter.

http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/generalstorage/piclinks/icons/DSC00002%20_Medium_.JPG(Click PIC to Enlarge)http://photos.imageevent.com/badgerdog/generalstorage/piclinks/icons/DSC00003%20_Medium_.JPG

Regards,
Badger

[lucky dog]

I thought the W inside a star was Weedon Supply Depot's mark. Disregard this I should have read all the posts, sorry.

[Peter Laidler]

A D in a circle indicates a different method of machining the breeching up thread to prevent wastage of barrels

[armabill]

I have no circle, just a capital D on the flat.
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

[armabill]

I also have this on the bolt:
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

[armabill]

OK, I get what the D means now. I didn't at first understand what was meant.

This is my first NO4 MKI*.