8mm & .303 ammo new/surplus observations

[David1974]

More Updates

8x57:

RWS E37 Excellent excellent ammo. Seems to be loaded pretty hot. Crazy hard primers like really hard.

75' Romanian Surplus: Smelly...very smelly. BUT it is very accurate. If you see it buy it. Also, the steel cases and the red sealant gives it that 'cool' look. :)

1955 Yugo Surplus ( Heavy ball? ) : Hot, accurate, clean. No misfires. I really like this stuff. Had 2 split cases around the neck. Not bad out of 200ish I've fired, but still unnerving. Update: 460(half tinish) round fired. only the two split necks so far. I am done with the Yugo. It was really nice to shoot.

Igman 198gr SP: Loaded Hot, accurate but smells. Ommited 'clean'. It is 'sooty' I thought that it was the rifle. After firing it in a ce41 K98 I am fairly certian it is the ammunition. The ejected brass is sooty... only way to describe it.

Olympic 180gr FMJ : Not loaded as hot(but still excellent) as the 55, Igman or S&B.Accurate,clean, throws a huge muzzle flash.

Sellier & Bellot 196gr FMJ: Loaded Hot, accurate, clean.

Sellier & Bellot 196gr SPCE: same as the FMJ



.303 British

89' HXP L1A1 Ball: Very very very nice. At 50m my groupings touch. I've always heard this is the best .303 surplus. It does live up to it's name.

81' South African R1M3Z : seems to be just as good as the HXP only berdan primed. touching groups @50m. Still wow great great stuff.

1967 Mk7 Ball ( Pakistani Surplus ): ALL Hangfired. I think because it's cordite and not powder. I fired 64 rounds and every single one had about a .5second hangfire. Nice sharp report when firing, clean almost ZERO smoke, accurate if you compensated for the hangfire.

95' IVI Soft point: Very nice. Accurate. I zero'd one of my ph5c's with it.

Sellier & Bellot 180gr FMJ: Accurate and clean. no complaints.

Olympic FMJ: Same as the 8mm. good and throws a huge muzzle flash.


Accuracy update:

8mm: With the Ce41 K98 benched it will consistantly group 2" give or take alittle @ 100m on a good day with good ammo. The S&B and the Romanian tend to hover around that 2" mark. Sometimes less especially with the S&B but usually more. With the K98 benched I've never had a group exceed 4 inches for any of the ammo. The Igman tends to and 55 Yugo tended to hover on the higher side of that range ( usually 3ish") and I didn't have enough of the Olympic to get anything conclusive over time.

.303: Pretty much the same as the 8mm. With the rifle benched, the HXP and South African was grouping less than 1"( holes touching ) at 50m more often than not. I haven't fired it past 50m yet but I will, no worries there. The sub 1" grouping's at 100m with the S&B was a fluke. Even with the PH5C, I haven't been able to group like that since. So the HXP, South African, and IVI are by far the best .303 I've fired. The HXP also has the lightest recoil. The IVI is extremely loud and has heavy recoil when compared with the rest. The stuff surprised me when I first fired it. The S&B and Olympic are also very good. Which leaves me with that 67' POF. It simply cannot be compared to the rest. It goes bang but man, in comparison... It's crap.


A group observation is that I do get good groupings. However I am not hitting the bullseye when I do this testing. Each type of ammunition does hit the paper in different places. More specifically in the Y axis. For example: S&B 8x57JS FMJ shoots 6-7inches high @ 100m. Same goes for the .303 ( it's different now that the PH5C is installed and allows me to zero )


When testing new ammunition or comparing them now, I shoot through my CE41 K98 for 8mm, and my 1950 LB No4 mk1*/PH5Cfor the .303

So if anyone ever wondered...there you go. This has changed some since I first posted, so I hope I am making it better and not worse. Please churp in with your own observations and give me an excuse to get to the range more often :)

[ak_milsurp]

Greetings,

I have not posted here in quite some time... My apologies for that.

I'm a milsurp collector in Alaska with about 90 Milsurps in my collection, and also a member of the "Alaska Machine Gun Association"

My experience with 8MM & .303 Surplus:

Turk 8MM, 1944 Vintage-Brass case-154gr "light ball" Works great, quite "hot" near 3,000 fps in my Turk M38's. The most accurate ammo to date in the Turk mausers.. (go figure- turk ammo in turk rifles!) lol Don't think I'd want to use this in an FN49 or Hakim... But I was pleased with it and keep about 1,500 rounds in reserve.- The machine gun guys feel this is too hot and old to use in thier prized possessions

Greek 8MM, 1940 vintage, brass case- "PCH 1940" on boxes. -- When it fires...lol the accuracy is good. Extremely hard primers. ABout 50% did not fire or were hang fires. Thumbs down on this one. Sadly I have 800 rounds of this stuff

But it only cost me $50.. sooooo lol

Romanian 8MM -1979-82 vintage- steel cased, light ball- Excellent stuff, quite accurate on my Yugo M48's, FN49, and Hakim, excellent in Belt fed machine guns- 100% sure fire! I have 2,000 rounds in reserve..... (I have a scoped Yugo M48 that will shoot MOA with this stuff all day long)

Yugoslavian 8mm- 1977 headstamp- Brass case-"SS" Heavy ball- Excellent accuracy and reliability in all rifles and Machine guns we tried it in! Lovely stuff! The currently available "M75" yugo sniper ammo should be even better! I have 800 rounds left. Wish I'd bought more!


Ecuadorian 8MM, 1954 headstamp, "FN" contract- I had a few hundred rounds of this stuff. I think it it was "SS" heavy ball- was great stuff and quite accurate, but showed signs of being high pressure- difficult to open bolts etc. (I doubt there's much of this around anymore) I found it odd to see 8MM ammo from Ecuador, but I'mm assume it was for machine guns likely MG42 or MG34's that they had.


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Pakistani .303 -brass case-MKVII ,1950's vintage- "POF" on the 32 rnd boxes- It was acceptable, sure fire, but not so accurate. but hey it went BANG!

British .303, Brass case-MKVII,RG (Radway green) 1940's, Cordite- Sure fire ,acceptable accuracy, cane in bandoliers in stripper clips, smelly stuff.... thankfully all gone from my stocks

South African .303-MKVII,Brass case-1981 date!!!- NON-CORROSIVE!!--- Simply the finest .303 surplus to be had. Very accurate,sure fire... I have 2,000rds of this stuff Squirrelled away. WISH I had MORE!!!! I have 4 Lee-Enfields... they love the stuff!

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I've not fired handloads or commercial ammo in my Lee-Enfields, only surplus

I did try some "Hotshot" brand commercial ammo in my M48 and M38 mausers. While clean and sure fire, the accuracy and power level was not on par with the Military stuff. I'm sure it's loaded to a lower pressure level

I hope this review helps...

[oneshooter]

I have fired the Pakastan 303 and have EVERY case eject with split necks!! This is out of my #1MkIII (1918 w/ 1953bbl) Accuracy was non existent. I tend to believe that the Packastani ammo is a hit or miss, some lots good , others not so good.
I have some 45 RG I will shoot in the next week or so.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[ak_milsurp]

Hmmm well the stuff I had was very clean and in it's original packaging. If it's some of the .303 recently available for various sources.. most of that stuff is mixed manufacture.. the cans I saw were loose packed in .30 caliber ammo cans.

How's the head space or chamber in your rifle? True it could be the ammo. But Every rifle, while supposedly to spec, is unique unto itself. As you mention, it has been rebarrelled. A chamber cast may be a good idea to see if you have erosion, a bulge, etc in the chamber. If it looks good... might indeed be the ammo......


Ak Milsurp:beerchug:

[thumperpaul]

I have gone through 2 boxes of Dominion Arsenal (Canadian) Mk7 with no hang or misfires.( GREAT ammo!!!) One box (48 rounds) from 1943 had reloading potential, but the other one (1942) had numerous split "necks".
I also picked up 2 boxes of (rare?) 1943 Kimberly made South African ammo. One of the boxes had a bit of water damage; I fired 10 rounds, with 2 hangfires. Also, all 10 of the casings had split necks.

I'm just wondering...I am looking to get into handloading my own .303 ammo. Is it really worth saving this old brass, or will the resizing process render them too thin?
Many thanks!

[David1974]

Where do you guys find all this stuff? especailly the .303?

[ak_milsurp]

LOL... I got lucky with the South African .303. A Local fella needed money and had to sell it off quick. I had no idea what it really was until I got it home. He was shooting it in Vickers MG....

If I was going to reload, I sure as hell wouldn't be trying to load WW2 era berdan primed brass. Get some new commercial .303 British ammo and reload or buy unprimed NEW cases.

The large Wholesalers in the USA generally have some .303, but the surplus stuff is usually mixed lot British, Indian, or Pakistani ammo, Last Time I saw it it was like $170 US for 300 rds loose in a .30 cal ammo can.

The 8MM ammo was accumulated over the last six years,,,, hell 3 years back we were getting Romanian 8mm for less than 6 cents per round!!!!! That year the club bought 75 cases of it!!! (I got 3 of those) Now if you can find it it's about 40-60 cents per round





The

[oneshooter]

The rifle was arsenal rebarreled in 1953. I shoot factory and reloads(neck sized only) in it with no problems.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[K31]

I had a bunch of AUSSIE .303 in the original packaging, beautiful stuff! Except it all hangfires! And the necks all split. I also had some GREEK HXP75, good but the brass was somewhat gummy feeling, and led to hard bolt lift. I couldn't get the brass cleaned up.

[lawrence253]

I bought these from buymilsurp.com . There is a 1967 date on the boxes and it says they are corrosive.
I don't know the manufacturer but I did try 2 rounds and they both were hangfires.
I fired 60 rounds of the L&B ammo with good accuracy and no problems.

[K31]

I had one GEVELOT round in my collection, and it rotted out from the inside! Green goop coming out of holes in the brass! YUK! I don't think that brand would be good to shoot.

[David1974]

Hey you have the exact stuff I bought. That surplus .303 at least mine does... All hang fires.. like 'click-bang' but it all goes bang. The S & B I do like very much.. I only have 120 rounds of that left.

[K31]

I got ten rounds of S&B once, it sure was nice while it lasted. A friend bought a house last year, and found a big box of IVI ranger issue ammo in the attic. All mixed up, I think '89 '90, '91 and '92 manufacture. It seemed pretty good, once I sorted it by year. It was all FMJ. Mk8Z. It did seem to have soft primers, though, they were quite flattened after firing. Glad he gave them to me, though.:)

[David1974]

Here is some of the ammo I have. That POF .303 really does get around ehh?

[K31]

Was the POF stuff packed in the old fashioned zinc lined wooden case?

[David1974]

The POF could have been. I bought it in loose boxes like that, but I didn't see what it was originally crated in.

[lawrence253]

I found these rounds at the local sporting goods store. They are just loose rounds for $12.99 per 20. I only bought enough to fill my clips but there is more :beerchug:
The guy said they are nickel casings ( plated ? )
Used up 40 rounds of that POE ammo yesterday and had many pop bangs and one I had to try 3 times before it would pop bang :move eek:

[K31]

I have never seen nickeled .303 brass before! What was the headstamp? Oh, and it really is nice to see chargers loaded correctly, too!:)

[lawrence253]

:slap: <--- me getting information from the experts here. I saw a thread on loading charger clips so I made sure they were right before I dared post a picture :bow:
If only I had a camera guru here too. I did get a profile pic of the ammo but couldn't manage the micro pic of the head stamp. It reads BRITISH 303 R.P

[Stevo]

Those nickel plated rounds don't look right, the bullet is too short.

Looks to me like someone has reloaded the Remington-Peters cases with 7.62x39 ball bullets.

[lawrence253]

:runaway: UH OH!! I didn't do it but Stevo is correct. The bullet IS shorter :bow:
The one on the right is the POF ammo and the case appears to be the same but the bullet is about a quarter of an inch longer than the nickel one. I suppose that will make it a bit lighter. Good or Bad?? :confused:

[K31]

Hard to tell without pulling a bullet, but the 174gr. R-P bullet is quite short. The stuff I had was short enough to cause feeding problems with most of my rifles. W-W is the only commercial ammo with a bullet as long as the military bullet. Remember, the military one has that aluminum filler in the nose, that makes it long for the weight. If they are SKS bullets, they must really be screaming from the muzzle! I use the 125gr. bullets in the 7.62x54R with good results, so they probably work okay in the .303

[Stevo]

:runaway: UH OH!! I didn't do it but Stevo is correct. The bullet IS shorter :bow:
The one on the right is the POF ammo and the case appears to be the same but the bullet is about a quarter of an inch longer than the nickel one. I suppose that will make it a bit lighter. Good or Bad?? :confused:

The M43 bullets should shoot alright through the .303. I'd be concerned that they're someones home reloads and the quality control is an unknown factor.

[K31]

When did R-P start making nickeled .303 brass?

[powwowdancer]

.303 British

1967 Mk7 Ball ( Pakistani Surplus ): ALL Hangfired.

Ye gods! I just bought 64 rounds of Pakistani 1967 surplus! Am I doomed? I don't like the notion of "hang fire" one single bit. Also, how do you clean your .303 after shooting that kind of "dirty" ammo? The standard "Black Powder Rifle
Enema" of hot, soapy water comes highly recommended by a person whom I trust. Some folks swear Hoppe's #9 will do it, but I've my doubts... It takes me forever to run a clean patch on my Mauser after shooting nasty Turk surplus ammo with Hoppe's and the standard wire brush/patch ramming cleaning. Sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm not an expert by anyone's definition, and I'm mostly concerned with safety. Thank you in advance for any consideration you are able to give this matter.

Regards,

powwowdancer.

[K31]

Try to find one of the LEE ENFIELD hot water cleaning funnels, you can usually find them on EBAY. If not, get a funnel that will fit in the breach. Squirt a liberal amount of WINDEX down the bore, breach to muzzle. Let it soak while your kettle of water boils. Pour the water through the bore. Let the bore dry for a few minutes, then clean normally with HOPPES, or whatever you normally use. The HOPPES#9 will flush out the salts, but you have to use LOTS of it, so it is much cheaper (and healthier) to use the boiling water.

[David1974]

Your not doomed. Just don't lose your grip on the rifle untill it fires. Otherwise it'll smack ya. ( My shoulder learned the hard way ). The hang fire at least for mine is a 'click-bang'. And like I said it all fired no miss fires at all. As for cleaning I run hot water down the bore. Then clean like normal.

[K31]

I haven't had any of my Aussie ammo fail to go bang, either. It all hangfires. Bad primers. I pulled the bullets from some, and fired the primers. They all click-bang. The cordite never goes bad, though. Did you see the program about the wrecks at Galipoli? A diver found some long strands of it on the bottom, and it still burned after 90 years under saltwater!

[lawrence253]

The results are in on the short nickel plate rounds. The bullet must be REALLY light and leave at a very high rate!! The first shot at 100yds was way high, never even hit the paper. Tried for the very bottom of the paper on target and just hit the top of the paper. Aimed in the dirt and got a 3 inch group in thebullseyr. They go straight but must be for distance?
The feed was OK until it peeled part of the casing down around the bullit and jammed. 40 rounds with just one minor problem isn't bad

[SGTMAJSTEVE]

Anyone every had the fun of shooting vickers ammo through a MK.V carbine?
wow. did it jump!

[K31]

I shot some 8z through my No.5, I'm glad I wasn't using the shooting bench! It was Yugo ammo, and if I recall correctly, the bullet was something like 192gr? I wrote down the info after I pulled the bullet, but I can't find it anymore. It came in little 15 round boxes.

[Richard47]

All the 303 hangfires. But it's simple to pull the bullets and stick into new cases with 35gr of 4895. I get nice accuracy. The primer is the problem. Unforunately there is no way to reload the cordite in another cartridge.

The 174gr bullets are interesting. Under the jacket, there is WOOD in the point, and lead behind. It gives the bullet a better balance, apparently.

[K31]

The wood point makes the bullet tumble when it strikes the enemy. The .303 bullet that killed The Red Baron exited sideways, so it must work! Most bullets that I've examined had an aluminium point.

[SGRAVESOK]

I have a No. 4 and it had way too much headspace when I first got it. It literally pulled new S & B cases apart. My gunsnmith got me a longer extractor head and problem solved. I primarily shoot neck sized reloads, but still have some of the P O F (Pakistani) suprlus left. It shoots (usually) on first strike & isn't very accurate.

[David1974]

How where K98's zero'd? Something I've noticed right from the start was all my k98's shoot high. My best shooter the ce41 consistantly groups nice and tight, but it's always 6-7 inches high at 100 meters. Is it the ammo?

And yes the sight is set to 100m

[Stevo]

How where K98's zero'd? Something I've noticed right from the start was all my k98's shoot high. My best shooter the ce41 consistantly groups nice and tight, but it's always 6-7 inches high at 100 meters. Is it the ammo?

And yes the sight is set to 100m

What type of ammo are you shooting through it?

[David1974]

Right now I am using S&B 196gr FMJ

[Sergeant Possum]

Anyone ever try the US milsurp 303 made by Winchester-Western in 1981? I bought a 400 round can of the stuff a few years ago, and am not terribly impressed with its' accuracy. The best I could get out of my Savage No.4 was a 2 3/4 inch group at 50 yards. I'm sure that the rifle should shoot better than that. The ammo can that the stuff came in is marked, "400 ROUNDS / .303 BALL / CONTRACT WCC-81-008". The cartridges are headstamped "WCC 81 / 303".
By the way, the rifle has a very strange sight on it. The sight resembles the regular milled micrometer sight found on many No.4s, but has no sighting aperture for use when the sight in in the horizontal position. Also, the aperture used when the sight is vertical has an insert that screws in with an eye-piece about the size of a nickel, with a variable aperture in it that gives the shooter a very fine picture of the front sight and target. The sight has the elevation screw on top and a windage screw on the right side. The only mark on the sight is an "F" on the elevation screw. Can anyone tell me more about this sight?

[csmarcher]

Range report from here in California on various lots of .303:

Weapon Bren MkI Semi-Auto from Wise Lite Arms,

Batch 1: POF 1967. In a word , Utter Crap !!! Hang fires, case head seperations, ripping the base off of the cartridge. Awful Stuff, avoid at all costs, give it away, pull the bullets and just get rid of it. BAD BAD BAD.

Batch 2: HXP Greek 70's production. Excellent, no problems, ran well. 2 partial base seperations, possibly due to the gas system being open too high. Turned gas down, all seemed fine. 250 rounds, almost all hit the gong at 200meters to the astonishment of the belt feed guys !! If anything the Bren on the tripod is just too accurate. No zone of disbursement.

End of test.

Gary