Building the Canadian Semi-Auto STEN

[Claven2]

Here in Canada, a semi-auto version of the STEN has finally been RCMP and CFC approved. To get one, you must build one as there is no commercial source. At this time, the only approved semi-auto STEN here in Canada is the SAS3 conversion suitable for the MkII, MkIII and MKV sten.

The FRT Number for the home-made Semi-Auto STEN SAS3 in MkII trim is 126844-1

This thread is intended as a pictorial aid to help those considering a build. It will be updated as progress is made. Additions may be made by any and all builders :)

[Claven2]

The initial build will be of a MkII based on a Canadian Army demilled Longbranch STEN MkII kit. It was torch-cut by the Canadian Army in the 1970's. The barrel was gouged at both ends with an acetylene torch, the stock base plate was partially torch-cut and in some cases the triggers were cut in half.

This build is actually a pictorial composite of two builds of similar kits being built side-by-side at the same time, one restricted with original length barrel, and one non-restricted with an 18.5" barrel. One kit has an intact trigger, the other will need repair (cut in half). Both stocks were repaired before the build began by filling the torch cut areas using gas welding and they were then filed back into shape.

Kits are available from Milsurps.com (milsurps.com) advisory panel member Stencollector (http://www.milsurps.com/member.php?u=79). Contact him for info. Here is what the kits look like as received:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1749.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1750.jpg

You will immediately notice that the mag well comes saw cut. This is because the RCMP have ruled that the mag well, bearing the markings and serial number, is the prohibited (automatic) firearm. The kits are shipped with a saw cut mag well so that it can still be used for dimensioning purposes. To get your semi-auto sten registered in Canada, you will need to fabricate a new magazine housing. More on this later.

[Claven2]

The first step is to clean up the kit, that is to say, remove all the parts you won't use for the build such as the old tube, the bolt and spring (if you have them), the old barrel, etc. This can be a challenge on some kits. As a rule, if the bits are arc-welded together, you cut away the welds with a grinding disc, and if they are spot-welded, the easiest thing to do is to drill out hte spot-welds and later on, re-use those hols to plug weld the kit together.

Here is a late production (1944) Longbranch spot-welded kit cleaned up:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1757.jpg

[Claven2]

So maybe you want to avoid the hassle of getting a STEN barrel exported from the USA. Sounds reasonable. There are two ways to fabricate a STEN barrel. Both will require a section of 9mm barrel blank. The first is to lathe out the contour of the barrel, the second is to lathe out a cylinder of the proper diameter and then pin on a barrel base collar. Original barrels were made BOTH ways. Use whichever way works for you! In this case, we had a blank with enough diameter to make a one-piece barrel. You will need a lathe to do this.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1761.jpg
In this photo we see a raw chunk of barrel blank, a lathed out barrel, the front barrel busing portion of the receiver (salvaged from the kit) and the barrel nut.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1764.jpg
Mocked up:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1765.jpg
Note the barrel is NOT chambered. This will be done when the bolt is head-spaced.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1766.jpg
Now, to finish off the exterior of the barrel, we bead blast it to facilitate parkerizing later on.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1781.jpg

[Claven2]

Now we begin fabrication of the magazine well.
It is best to measure the thickness of the steel used on your de-milled mag well. Get a grade of sheet steel that matches so that you dimensions will be the same when you build your box because you will be making all your measurements from the gun you are copying.

This part can be done very simply or very complexly. We chose to fabricate from three pieces so as to get precise bends.
Step 1. make your first two bends. For those interested, this sheet-metal bending rig was bought at Lee Valley in Ottawa (they do mail order). The vise is up to you though!
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1767.jpg
Step 2. fit the two pieces together, use your original mag well for dimensioning. It is important to note, make your mag well longer than you need so that you can trim to size after you weld it to the receiver sleeve section.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1771.jpg
Make sure a magazine goes in BEFORE you weld!!
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1769.jpg
Just tack weld at first, then completely weld up the seam. A belt sander and file work great for cleaning the outside, the inside must be completely hand-filed. Once done, cut a section of steel to form the back of the box.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1778.jpg
Here are the parts up against a receiver tube collar like the one we will be welding to later:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1780.jpg
Once you measure and measure and measure and tril fit and measure again, weld on the back plate:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1782.jpg
Does it fit? Use your demilled collar to mock it up and check:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1777.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1776.jpg
Now dress the welds:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1783.jpg
The ends of the mag box will need to be squared off. If you have a mill, use it. It works great. If not, carefullt scribe lines to ensure a square mark around the circumference of the mag box and carefully grind it level.
In the mill:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1784.jpg
Done!
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1787.jpg
It should fit a mag at this point:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1788.jpg

[Claven2]

The SAS3 kit does not use the whole original cocking handle. Due to the striker-fired design, it uses a truncated handle. You can just trim an original MkV handle like will come with your kit, but a better solution is to use a repro MkII cocking handle to match the fact there will be no cocking handle safety hole on a SAS3 receiver tube. An added advantage to making a (very hard to find and rare in original form) MkII handle is that you can fit it precisely to your bolt so its does not wobble around on you.

You make one on a lathe and will need a knurling tool.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1790.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1794.jpg
And here's a couple we made up compared to a real mkII handle:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1798.jpg

[Claven2]

As Isaid, some kits come with chopped triggers. The top trigger is original, the bottom trigger had the part you pull with your finger cut off. A bottom half was fabricated in sheet steel and mig welded on, then filed flush:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1822.jpg

[Claven2]

Now we'll make the mag well locking collar. This holds the locking pin in place to lock the magazine housing into position when firing.

Let's measure the locking pin collar...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1799.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1800.jpg
Great! This bar stock will fit the bill!
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1801.jpg
Back to the Mill that Klunk hates, because we're "Fancy":rolleyes:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1802.jpg
Looking good...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1803.jpg
More measuring...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1804.jpg
And sectioned off with the saw...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1810.jpg
Drilling out the hole...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1819.jpg
Brazed on, an original on a demilled Longbranch mag housing is on the right.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1820.jpg

[Claven2]

Now we'll look at building a 18.5" non-restricted barrel with dummy suppressor for the non-restricted Sten we're building on the British Sten MkII kit.

We start with a spare 9mm barrel blank we had lying about. There is some old corrosion on the outside of the blank, but the bore is perfect, and once the tube is bead blasted, parkerized and covered by the dummy suppressor, the cosmetic blemished won't be a factor.

Here we have the barrel retained by a barrel nut that will form the base of the suppressor. The suppressor will thread onto the Sten receiver in place of the ventilated MkII barrel nut/handguard. The serrations on the base of the barrel nut will be done later with a cold chisel.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1824.jpg
For scale, note the muzzle bushing at the top:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1827.jpg
And here we have the assembly minus the dummy suppressor tube. This suppressor is being built to copy the longer SOE Version of the MkIIS, not the standard tube which is much shorter.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1829.jpg
The barrel is threaded into the sleeve that provides the shoulder for the barrel nut, as the original barrel outer diameter was too small to create a shoulder in the lathe. We used 3/4-16 threads, external ones cut with a lathe, internals with a tap. The threads on the collar are lathe cut.

The barrel has been torqued into the sleeve quite tight so we may not install a transverse retaining pin - there would be no way to access a pin without a hole in the barrel casing (dummy suppressor), and its not needed to secure the threaded joint.

To remove the barrel nut from a standard Sten barrel, you would use a punch through one of the rearmost holes.

The body of the suppressor is just made with appropriate diameter steel tubing.

[stencollector]

I usually heat up the old barrel nut to separate the threaded part from the short tube. I then recycle this onto the dummy silencer. On my version of the silencer, I went to about 14" length, and had the barrel stick out about another 4". I left the remaining barrel unfinished so it wouldn't stand out. Also, it reduced the weight at the nose a bit. I think you are going to find this gun to be a bit nose heavy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/stencollector/DSCF0009-3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/stencollector/DSCF0015-2.jpg

[J. Savoie]

Now, I have a question:

Video: How to Build a Sten MkII or MkV From a Kit (http://www.butokukai.com/product22.html)

30 min video on how 2 build a Sten Mk2 or MkV from a kit. Does anyone know if this video is on how to build a SAS or a full-auto NO-NO ?

Thanks

J. Savoie

[tiriaq]

Stencollector's point about the carbine being muzzle heavy is well taken. I suppose that an option would be to use aluminum rather than steel tubing to reduce the weight a bit. Even the barrel nut and muzzle cap could be turned from aluminum. If the gun were to be given a Suncorite type coating for finish, it would not be apparent that steel was not used.

J. Savoie - I've never seen that video, but I would bet that it describes construction of a smg, not a legal semi auto.

[Claven2]

Other options include fluting the barrel, skeletonizing the bushings, etc.

[stencollector]

Just use a 1-3/8 frostplug with a hole drilled in the center to allow the barrel through it. On mine, I left the barrel a bit larger behind the frostplug. In the case of your barrel, you could weld the fake tube just at the barrel nut end. I usually drill holes in the tube and weld them shut onto the frostplug to hold it in place, but it could also be brazed or soldered into place. Only problem with the soldering/brazing methods is they will not finish the same as the metal.
I had tried a wooden stock on mine to balance it, but it only made the whole affair heavier. It is not so bad with the loopstock.

For the canvas cover, I actually found a roll of the original webbing/canvas. You can also cut up old P-37 largepacks for the material. I did pick up a large blanket of asbestos to use under the cover, but have not used any for possible health reasons. Firing 5 round magazines in semi auto mode really do not heat up the tube that much.

[stencollector]

...30 min video on how 2 build a Sten Mk2 or MkV from a kit. Does anyone know if this video is on how to build a SAS or a full-auto NO-NO ?


If you manage to get a SAS-3 kit, it will come with 6 pages of instruction, along with a BATF approval letter. There really is no need for a video. Some of the instruction has to be taken with a grain of salt. You will not have to weld on the pipe barrel extension provided, as it is not necessary under Cdn laws,nor will it change the status of the gun from restricted to non restricted. I still have the original instructions around here somewhere in case someone needs them, but at this time, if you have the kit, you will have the instructions.

[Claven2]

I was thinking a more aesthetically correct method would be to drill 4 equidistant holes around the tube housing into the barrel nuts and then silver-solder the tube to the nuts and remove any overflow from the seam, then soft-solder some blind dome-head rivets into the holes to help retain the whole affair, like on the originals.

[tiriaq]

Early Mk. II carbines had the barrel seatings sweat soldered (soft solder) and flush rivetted into the casing. Mk. IIIs had the front and back barrel seatings sweated and rivetted with round head drive rivets.
The idea of using a frost plug is excellent. Being pressed from sheet steel, the weight would be minimal.
SOE suppressors used larger diameter tube than the IIS. This results in a very large front end.
If a carbine were registered as non-restricted, a non functional display barrel could be made up for the sake of correct appearance for display purposes.

[Claven2]

Kind of a side-track, but I'm planning on designing a TT-33 magazine adaptor to insert into the Sten mag well and a 7.62x25TT barrel so these stens can be run cheap.

The first step is barrel design. To prove the concept, a 7.62x25TT chamber reamer was fabricated and hardened (not for novices). Buying a reamer is a better idea, but they are not commonly available. Hand-made reamers with 2 blade surfaces clearly don't last like commercial multi-blade reamers do.

The barrel shown WAS a chunk of 2 groove Longbranch No.4 barrel. The base was threaded and a sleeve was screwed on to form the shoulder, then it was pinned in place and finish machined. The next batch of these barrels will be made with take-off 7.65 Argentine Mauser barrels.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1830.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1831.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1833.jpg

[Klunk]

You MADE a reamer???

Now i am impressed

Whats it made of and how was it hardened

come on...no secrets!!

[Claven2]

Fine by me Monsieur Savoie :)

Klunk, the reamer is made from drill rod stock, you lathe it to SAAMI specification, in effect a dummy round with a pilot guide on the end, than you mill the flats in a mill to make the cutting surfaces.

To harden, it depends on the steel used. You can either casenit it, or use heat and quench cycles on the heat treat chart for that steel.

They don't last like commercial ones, but work OK for a few barrels, and they pretty much require a lathe to keep them cutting straight.

Ok, wrote the above part early this morning when I was in a rush, here's more detail...

The reamer is made out of drill rod. I forget if it is O-1 or W-1. High carbon steel, hardened then drawn slightly. D reamers are a standard type of reamer, not just chambering reamers. Basically, you turn the steel to the diameter or contour desired, and then cut away almost half. A relief is cut on the rounded side up to the edge to create the cutting edge. The edge is finished by stoning. Biggest problem is the risk of warping when the reamer is hardened. O-1 is less subject to warping than W-1. Plunged straight down into the oil or water, not on an angle or horizontal. Doesn't cut as fast as a multi-flute reamer, but if the edge is in good condition, cuts smooth, as can be seen in the photo. Making these reamers is described in older texts. A reamer to size and finish a drilled hole can be made by taking a rod the correct diameter, and cutting it with a long oblique cut. After hardening, the cut face is stoned smooth.

As I said though, it's not a project for a beginner as there is a high probability of making a mistake and ruining your barrel blank.

[Claven2]

DISCLAIMER: Stencollector has been kind enough to allow me to post and use his collection of material on building his SAS3 Sten, the actual gun used to get RCMP approval. The following is his work.

The mag well collar is manufactured it from 1/8" plate. Photo one shows the plate being bent around. The mandrel being used is an old roadwheel pin from a Brengun carrier, turned down to the outside diameter of the tube. The next photo shows it bent completely and before having the seam welded. The origionals were approx .105 thickness, although this varied between manufacturers. In another photo you can see where the outside of the tube is being turned to the correct thickness. The inside had to be bored slightly to provide a nice (but not loose) fit. The last photo shows the ejector port cut into it.

The port was accidently cut too long...had to weld a little metal back in place. The locator pin has already been drilled, and the magazine opening roughed into place.

[Claven2]

DISCLAIMER: Stencollector has been kind enough to allow me to post and use his collection of material on building his SAS3 Sten, the actual gun used to get RCMP approval. The following is his work.

Again, 1/8 sheetmetal was used. A mandrel the size of the internal magwell was made up and used to make the bends. Once the holes were cut for the mag release, and the front slot for the housing release, this piece was located and welded on to the tube that was made in the previous post. It was initially tacked it into position, then assembled onto the receiver to make sure that the gun would feed.

At first, the last round would continuosly jam. For whatever reason, the housing prefferred to be further back than on an original sten, so the welds were cut and the mag box was moved further back. The triangular bent barrel nut lock had to be custom made since this dimension has been changed by the repositioning of the housing. The last photos show the stamping of the markings on the housing.

This housing is stamped with the serial number 0S04. The serial was alsostamped onto to the tube and the trigger housing, since Stencollector was concerned that the ruling about what constitutes the receiver could one day change.

[Claven2]

DISCLAIMER: Stencollector has been kind enough to allow me to post and use his collection of material on building his SAS3 Sten, the actual gun used to get RCMP approval. The following is his work.

Here are the final photos of Stencollector's project. Photo 1 is of the dovetail filed in to the receiver. Photo2 is of the two main items with the trigger housing welded back on before refinishing. Photo 3, is of the components ready for assembly. Photos 4, 6, and 7 are the serial numbers located on the magwell, the trigger housing, and the tube. Photo 8 is a shot of the semi auto closed bolt system, which utilizes a AR-15 type firing pin. Photo 9 shows the trigger mechanism from underneath. The change lever has been welded from the top (before it was welded to the receiver) and the slot for the disconnect is cut so it does not allow any side-to-side movement. Any altering of the trigger mech to try and make it F/A will jus result in the gun jamming, as the round will not slide over the firing pin. The bolt was not built with feed lips like that of a normal sten.

Photo 12 shows the addition of metal to the barrel lock. Because the magwell was moved back 1/16" on the magwell collar, the barrel lock had to also be extended.

The remaining photos are of the finished product.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0001-1.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0002-1.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0003-1.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0004.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0006-1.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0013-1.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0009-1.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0012.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0008-1.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0007-1.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0019.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0018.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0017-1.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0016-1.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0015-1.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCF0014.jpg

[stencollector]

Thanks for posting these Claven. As you can see in the photos, I have no problem working with metal. But wood and computers are not my friends. I couldn't cut a 2X4 square if my life depended on it, nor could I post the photos as neatly as you have.

The nicest thing about metal is that if you make a mistake and take too much metal off, you can always just zap a little back on. The key to the magwell, in my opinion, is to first get the locating hole in place on the tube where the pin goes in to lock the magwell. Then you can cut the holes to match the piece of tube that is underneath. Use the original tube from the cut up sten receiver.

When you are making up the new receiver, same deal. Get that locating hole in the right spot, then pin on the remnants of a cut up magwell to the new receiver. Use it to make the magazine and ejection ports. Use the origional piece of tubing as a guide as to just how far you should cut. Note that the ejection port does not go all the way to the trunnion.

Some of this doesn't make sense to you? Just wait until you are starting to make your cuts...it'll all make sense then. Or after you've made a wrong cut. Then it'll really make sense.

[Stevo]

Have you guys given any thought to making an adaptor to use the RRA 10 rd 9mm AR mags?

[stencollector]

Considered it, but I did this to have a reasonable copy of the sten gun. If the RCMP had an issue with the sten magwell I built, I was going to make one that took Inglis browning mags. I have many, many sten mags, so it is nothing for me to cut down 20 or 30 to 5 rounds only. That way, whatever I have in my pocket is to it's full capacity.

If I really wanted to make a useful goofball variant, I would make it take the luger 32 round drum magazines.

[tiriaq]

Concerning shop made reamers - go to www.practicalmachinist.com, and in the gunsmithing forum there is a current discussion of "D" bits. All the information you would need to make these.

[Claven2]

Some more progress is being made on the mag housings.

Here we see the housing collar pictured in an earlier mockup. it was made by bending flat bar around a mandrel and then seam-welding, much like the one Stencollector made. (on the second sten, we'll probably be using seamless tubing to save time) In this case, the ejection port opening and mag feed opening are being cut in a mill, mostly to save time and improve cosmetics.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1851.jpg
After bead blasting:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1852.jpg
Another view:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1853.jpg
Note that holes and openings were measured and placed based on the original (demilled) mag wells that came with the kits from Stencollector.
Mocked up and ready for welding:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1854.jpg

[Claven2]

Now since the SAS3 kits are still not in-hand, just for fun, let's see what it takes to manufacture an SAS3 bolt assembly... ;)

First you need some suitable round stock... and a mill... and patience... and, and, and...

(in other words, this is just for show, most guys shouldn't try this at home unless they are machinists)

First you center-bore the firing pin hole using a mill or lathe (lathe was used here) and then you use a mill to bore the guide rod holes. An end-mill cuts the cartridge recess and a small drill bit is used to cut the pin opening. Afterwords, you mill a flat which will eventually be feed lips.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1839.jpg
Back into the mill, and....
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1842.jpg
Ta-da! Feed lips! (note they do NOT protrude beyond the cartridge recess face. Doing so would make it "go fast" under the right circumstances, which is illegal, so do not do that.)
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1843.jpg
And here the hammer recess is milled into the back of the bolt.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1850.jpg
This bolt still needs the extractor and pin cuts made - it's not done. It'sa trial experiment or sample. The next one will go easier... if there is ever a "next one". Hopefully the SAS3 bolts are importable to save us all the trouble.

[Claven2]

I'm sure the CFC will let you know if the serial you intend to use is taken or not. I'll probably use some random Longbranch formatted serial number myself.

The mill is an older Bridgeport. Manual, not CNC.

I was talking to a friend who is a gunsmith machinist, and he thinks we may be able to fabricate a series of mandrels and presses to form the mag boxes from seamless tubing, cutting down on ALOT of the work. It's a long-off possibility right now, but at some point maybe someone can offer a formed mag box and collar, unwelded, as a kit for prospective builders, an "80% receiver" of sorts.

[NavyShooter]

Ok.

I'm intrigued now.

I took a closer look at my 1943 7L series Dewat, and I did a bit of disassembly, and discovered that it is quite possibly a good candidate for this kind of conversion.

So.

Is there a bill of materials that I'd need to get a move on assembling?

Have we tracked down anyone who's importing the kits as of yet?

NS

[stencollector]

NS: If your dewat is at all like the ones I am familiar with, then the barrel's chamber has been cut back about 3/8" and then the entire area has been welded in to the trunnion of the receiver. It will take some fancy cutting and filing to remove the barrel from that trunnion. In all likelihood you will need a new extractor as well since the face of your bolt should have been cut or ground away.

And of course, if you take apart that dewat, make sure you destroy that magwell. It would not do to have a loose prohib kicking around. The fate of my first magwell (which was recycled) came up when I was talking to the RCMP lab tech about my SAS-3mk2.

If you manage to get one of the SAS-3 kits in from the US, there is very little you would need to get here in the way of materials. Between a sten parts kit and what is contained in the SAS3 kit, the newly manufactured magwell would be the only thing requiring any materials.

[Claven2]

Agreed, though you will need a barrel (or make one) and possibly a new trunion (as mentioned) which I'm sure Stencollector could provide.

Nobody is importing the SAS3 at this time, so you need to either deal with Questar or import one yourself (legally)...

OR,

You could make one using some of the pics in this thread as a guide.

[NavyShooter]

Ok,

So, what are the dimensions on the receiver tube that I'd need...and specs on the type of metal?

How about the bolt?

Any other bits I'd need to fabricate? I have a (small Sherline) Lathe and Mini-Mill at my disposal...

NS

[Claven2]

1.5" outer diameter tubing is needed. The inner diameter is whatever you want to make it if you build your own bolt ;) I would suggest a thicker than original tube to help with CFC approval so a full auto bolt cannot be easily fitted. For the tube, regular 102X series low carbon steel should be fine. For the bolt, I'd go with a medium carbon steel of your choosing so it can be hardened easily if you choose to do so.

[tiriaq]

If your main tube is 1.5" OD, the tube for the collar will have to be something that will slide over. Either the main tube, or the collar could be adjusted to fit. I suspect that one or the other is going to have to be altered. You might get lucky and find stock sizes that will telescope smoothly. From reading the US sites, it is necessary for them to use a main tube with an internal diameter that will not accept an issue bolt. Tubing is catalogued by OD, with a range of wall thicknesses. If an original used a 1/16" wall, 3/32" would insure that the bolt will not slide in.

[Claven2]

OK, time to start talking about welding jigs. You SHOULD use a jig when you weld your mag box to your collar.

It is made up from a 1.5 inch diameter piece of steel bar stock with a peg made from threaded rod that threads into place on the bar shaft to accurately position the box against the collar. It uses the plunger guide on the front of the box, and the plunger guide hole at the front of the collar to stop movement when clamped together. The piece of threaded rod and a plate clamp the box to the collar.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1857.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1855.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1856.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1858.jpg

When the time comes to weld the mag housing pieces together, the box will be tacked in place, then removed from the jig for the welds to be completed (you function test it first with dummy rounds to ensure it will feed). Once the box is permanently assembled to the collar, the box will be cut to finished length, the slot for the barrel nut detent cut, and the rear wall of the box cut back for the magazine catch retainer. The slots for the magazine catch will be made, and a hole for the magazine catch retaining screw drilled.

Now if any of you have bought your kits from Stencollector, you will notice that your mags are likely "demilled" by beng struck at around the 5 round mark with an axe. Don't blame stencollector!!! The Canadian Forces did that! LOL

We can fix it... we have the technology... those mags can be made to function like new again, though you WILL haveto limit them to 5 rounds again by other means.

You need to build a swage... it will look something like this:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1861.jpg

It is sized to fit tightly inside the body, and has a tapered leading end. In use, it is tapped under the dent, while the dent is ironed out by light hammer blows. It works not unlike a shotgun barrel dent raiser.

Maks sure you "concave" the back edge to account for the magazine spine.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1860.jpg

This item can be made from cheap low-carbon steel and fashioned with hand files if you don't have a bunch of shop machinery.

[Claven2]

ok, now for a sneak peak at efforts to manufacture mag boxes from seamless tubing ;)

We've constructed a forming mandrel. The next step will be a roughing die that tapers from round to rectangular, then this mandrel will be hydraulically pressed through the tubing, forming the mag box from one piece, ready to be welded to the mag collar :)

I doubt anyone is planning to make a tool like this for a one-off project, so pics weren't taken of its manufacure, but here it is nevertheless for your viewing pleasure :)

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1864.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1863.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1862.jpg

[Claven2]

There are various ways of fabricating the box portion of the magazine housing assembly: one piece wrapped around a form, with a single welded seam, as Stencollector showed in his photo series; three pieces hand formed as illustrated elsewhere in the thread, and welded together; die formed and seamed; formed from seamless tubing. Earlier photos showed a shaped plug which could be used for any of these methods. It is dimensionned so that it is a tight fit in a demilled housing. Note that a taper is incorporated, front to back. These photos show the basic pieces for a die to be used in conjunction with the forming plug. A press is used in conjunction with the plug to force a steel strip into the die, and then the ends are folded over and a single seam run up the back. These pieces are cut from a piece of 1"x3" steel. Dados will be milled across the base, and the sides secured in these cuts. Note that each sidepiece will be machined with a taper, to match the forming plug. One of the sidepieces will be machined on both sides, so that either 3/32" or 1/8" steel may be utilized for the housing, simply by reversing the part.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1865.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1866.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1867.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1868.jpg

[Claven2]

Trial run of forming die using a heavy vise and 1/8" steel. Will need adjustments and some experimentation, but looks as if it has promise.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1875.jpg

[Claven2]

Hmm... what could this parcel be!?! It seems to have come from the States...?

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4547.jpg

Let's see what's inside, shall we?

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4548.jpg

Looks like my two SAS3 kits have finally arrived!

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4549.jpg

And to top it all off, they even come with the latest revision hammers!

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4550.jpg

Looks like we'll be making some build progress soon - stay tuned!

[J. Savoie]

Now, I need all the details please:
-Where did you get it from? Semiautosten.com I imagine.
-How much (total including postage, taxes and duty please)
-Did it take long long before you got it? (from the moment you sent your $ until you got the delivery)
-Did you need any particular papers to import it?

Oh boy! Oh boy! Oh boy! Don't let us wait too long please!

J. Savoie

[Claven2]

Now, I need all the details please:
-Where did you get it from? Semiautosten.com I imagine.
-How much (total including postage, taxes and duty please)
-Did it take long long before you got it? (from the moment you sent your $ until you got the delivery)
-Did you need any particular papers to import it?

Oh boy! Oh boy! Oh boy! Don't let us wait too long please!

J. Savoie

1) Yes, Semiautosten.com
2) $569.15 USD for the two kits and shipping, not including any duty charges.
3) The kits were delivered 2 weeks to the day after semiautosten.com received payment - from Canadians they take only money orders mailed to them, and drawn on a US bank.
4) I didn't import the kits, so I cannot comment on the mechanics of that. I bought the kits here in Canada, someone else imported them for me.

The machining of these kits seems pretty straightforward, actually. It MAY be possible to devise a Canadian offering. We shall see.

In case you did not know, the photo of the template is actually the receiver tube. The templates come pre-adhered to the metal receiver tubes.

[stencollector]

I am sure you guys will figure these things out, but I'll add a quick blurb on what changes have to be made to convert the mk3 template to mk2 conversion.
Of course, you will cut the tube to the shorter length, and square the end off in a lathe. Then you will have to turn the inside diameter of the tube the appropriate distance to fit the trunnion in. I found the next hole to make was to match up a hole with the magwell release pin. Then from there I cut the openings to match my magwell ejection and magazine ports. The ejection port should be the same as is on the template.

One other change you are going to have to make (besides the front sight dovetail of course) is to position the ejector in relation to the bolt. You will find that the mk2 style of ejector will interfere with the bolt, so you will have to groove the bolt slightly where it wants to hit the ejector. To be able to use the safety slot, you will have to remove a bit more metal on the bolt to allow it to turn and miss the ejector. I would also suggest welding the ejector in as far as it can go against the slot in the bolt. Mine has to be cut out and repositioned....I currently end up with the occasional spent case stuck in the tube.

Someone mentioned that, on the curent produced kits, the guide rods which hold the springs aren't threaded to go into that end cap. Are yours?

[Claven2]

The newer kits have a shorter slug, shorter hammer, and longer (better) springs. The rods are not threaded as the new design specifies they be welded to the slug.

Should be interesting to see if Spencer gets to keep his new open bolt effort. If so, the original sten design is easier and cheaper to scratch build if you have a mill (check) and lathe (check).

For now I'll proceed with SAS3 guns and possibly try another later using open-bolt, but of course will scratch-built the receiver and possibly the bolt too.

[stencollector]

That makes sense on the shorter slug and longer springs. I was actually going to recess my springs into the bolt and hammer to get more room for longer ones. The ones I have now have held up OK to a split between IVI and commercial ammo, but I would prefer longer.

After my experience with the CFC, I wouldn't bet on a decision on the open bolt any time soon. It would be nice if there was, I too would go that route. But I suspect there will be a few obstacles and roadblocks thrown his way yet.

[Claven2]

Let's talk about casings for dummy silencers.

The casing for the 18 3/4" barrel has now been made. This isn't made from high-end DOM tubing, its just galvanized EMT stock with the zinc removed. Actually this is thinner and lighter than DOM, so its better for this purpose. Centering plugs were made so that SAS sized tube can be supported against the tailstock while the steady rest is adjusted. This diameter tube cannot fit through the lathe spindle being used, so we have to use the steady rest to bore out the tube to accept the barrel seating. Where the spot welds were, the steel is hardened which makes turning in the lathe difficult. It's easier to adjust the tube than the seating for this reason. The tube for the housing collars is smaller than the casing inside, and larger outside.

This is done deliberately, so we can get a better fit, boring and turning, rather than trying to use a stock size, and hoping that it works.

Some housing boxes have been made, one using two L shaped pieces, seams along opposite corners, the other a U shape, with a separate back welded in. The above jig was used and since there is no weld shrinkage, these aren't going to require any filing along the inside to get the best magazine fit.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1919.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1920.jpg

[Claven2]

Here, a SAS3 bolt (extreme left) is compared with two newly shop-made experimental (machined to be semi-auto only) open-bolt STEN bolts, one patterned after a Sten bolt using basic dimensions available on line (middle), the other reconfigured for a bottom feed MP3008 style (far right). Note that the sear engagement surfaces extend all the way across the bolts, for semi auto only function (ie, no matter what position the selector is in, the interruptor would be tripped). It is unknown if either of these open bolts actually function, there being no real Sten or MP3008 in my posession which to test them, but from an engineering standpoint, they would run just fine.

If an open-bolt gun is approved, machining semi-only open bolts looks to be no big deal. The SAS bolt is a more difficult endeavor, but may still be doable in the advanced home shop.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_19251.jpg

Here are some more views:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1924.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1923.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1922.jpg

[Claven2]

A SAS3 Sten uses tubing with an OD of 1.500", and a wall thickness of about 3/32" or .093" to prevent an original bolt from being inserted into the tube.

The original Sten recoil spring guide and barrel block won't fit, as a result. It is necessary to alter either the tube, or the parts - the tubes that come with the kits are relieved inside the rear of the tube for the spring guide, but NOT for the barrel block as the kits are meant for MkIII repros, not MkII's.

Because this lathe (a 13x40 Standard Modern) will not pass a 1.5" diameter piece through the spindle, so the steady rest is used to allow the ends of the tube to be bored out.

An aluminum plug with a centered hole was made which is a tight fit in the tube. One end of the tube is mounted in the chuck, the other end is supported by the tailstock centre. The steady rest jaws are then adjusted against the tube. Once adjusted, the centering plug is knocked out, and the boring bar is then used to bore out the tube enough to clear the barrel block and spring guide.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1926.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1927.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1928.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1929.jpg

See kids - shop class WAS useful!

Here is the SAS3 bolt with a reproduction MkII cocking handle fitted.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1930.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1931.jpg

Here is the blank tube and a template. The template is bonded to the tube, and then the openings are milled out. An alternative would be to coat the tube with machinst's blue, and scribe the lines onto the tube.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_1932.jpg

The SAS3 kit comes with a template already bonded on, but it is a MkIII tamplate. It is sometimes easier to start with a new template made from STEN drawings than to bother modding the SAS3 template.

[NavyShooter]

FRT Report
webFRT v2.07

Firearm Reference No 126844

Summary

Make: Homemade
Model: Sten MARK 2 Copy
Manufacturer: (Blank)
Level: Non-Commercial Customization
Type: Commercial Version
Action: Semi-Automatic
Country of Manufactuer: (Blank)
Serial Numbering: Numbered
Legal Classification: Restricted

Caliber, Shots and Barrel Length
Firearm Ref No: 126844-1
Caliber: 9mm LUGER
Shots: 5
Barrel (mm): 197
Legal Classification: Restricted
Legal Authority: CC 84(1) "Restricted Firearm" para. (b)
Level: Non-Commercial Customization
Barrel Type Code: (Blank)

Notes

Make
-Make is not found on the firearm.

Model
-"SAS-3 MK 2", "T-15 IND", "CANADA" and a serial number is marked on the magazine housing of the firearm.
-this firearm is a homemade semi-automatic only reproduction of a Second World War STEN MARK 2 submachine gun, distinguished by its all-metal welded construction.
-the basis of this fabrication is the SAS-3 (Semiautomatic Sten Mark 3) tube kit as sold by T-15 industries, salvaged scrap parts, and a homemade magazine housing; deemed to be the receiver/frame.
-features include: fixed open sights; a "wire loop frame" style stock; tubular construction; 7 3/4" / 197mm barrel, and magazine housing that extends to the left of the receiver tube, an AR-15 type firing pin and a specially manufactured bolt assembly from T-15 Industries.

Action
-closed-bolt, striker fired, blowback operated.

Serial Number
-observed serial number was located on the magazine housing.
-the observed serial number consisted of a number followed by a letter followed by two digits.

Shots
-detachable box magazine.

Canadian Law Comments
-this firearm has a homemade receiver/frame which, in conjuntion with SAS parts, supports only semi-automatic fire.

Cross-References
No Data Retrieved

Also Known As/Product Code
No Data Retrieved

Year Dates
No Data Retrieved

Importer
No Data Retrieved

[Claven2]

I think we have the safety slot thing figured out. We're using a thinner slug than even the revised kit, gives a few extra milimeters to move the slot back, along with the space savings from the shorter hammer. Should be possible to put the gun on safe without modding the ejector, but I need to mock it up first.

No progress this week since I was off in Toronto and also the big lathe being used blew a capacitor, a replacement is en-route. Could use the smaller lathe, so not really an excuse, but as I said, I was out of town!

In other news, I ordered a 6" rotary table and dividing head, so machining some parts should now be easier and faster :)

[Claven2]

OK! Some new progress!

Got a receiver tube cut out using an SAS3 style template.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2036.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2037.jpg
Here we see the ejector welded in. Note that it has been shortened a little at the rear to allow clearance for the bolt when put on safe. (The SAS kit was originally designed for the MkIII sten which uses a much thinner ejector (front to back).
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2039.jpg
Mocked up with some parts:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2040.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2041.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2043.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2046.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2047.jpg
And here we see the cuts made to accommodate the front barrel bushing :)
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2051.jpg

[stencollector]

Time to register it I would say. You are at the point of being able to discharge a round.

Looks good. One important point for those making one is that the hole for the sear (on the bottom of the tube) is very critical. If you make it too long, the sear will turn into the tube. Best bet is to make the final fitting with a file once the trigger housing is welded into place.

[Claven2]

Nope, can't discharge yet b/c the barrel bushing isn't welded in yet and the mag box is not welded on yet ;) Almost there though...

[Claven2]

The above tube is made to use the SAS3 safety notch. The following tube uses the SAS bolt system as well, but is machined to cosmetically place the safety notch where it was on the originals. It is NOT 20 degree canted, however, so an original turned-down bolt will still not fit. I'm using a selector switch mod that makes the selector act as a safety, so the notch isn't really needed and it looks much better this way :)

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2055.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2054.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2053.jpg

[J. Savoie]

Personal update:

Yours truly with my Sten Mk2 parts kit that just came in from Manitoba. Thanks stencollector!
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/4.jpg

A better view of the kit here:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/3.jpg



Now, the Sten Mk3 parts kit that I own for a few years:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/20080402_8_petite.jpg

All I need now are 2 conversion kits (semiauto bolt, hammer, firing pin etc) from USA if someone finally imports them some day OR a canadian version (less trouble for all).

J. Savoie

[Claven2]

In other news, we at MSC soon plan to have a limited number of .095" thick receiver tubing suitable for building the SAS3 in MkII trim to offer for sale. They will be already cut to length and counterbored on either end for installing the barrel nut and for clearance of the spring cap at the other end. This is the single hardest part to make without a big lathe, the rest can be done on a mini-lathe :) Being 80% tubes, you will have to fasten a template and make the necessary cuts.

[Claven2]

Anoher update,

Here is a late war longbranch kit assembled on the previously shown (though closer to completion) tube with the cocking slot further to the rear like on an open bolt sten. In this design, the slot is for COSMETICS ONLY. The "safety" will be accomplished through use of the selctor switch on this version.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2056.jpg
DISCLAIMER: Note that NO WELDS have been made yet. Everything is just friction fitted for the mockup. This gun can not fire without the barrel block welded into place. Although the mag housing is ready to be welded together, this housing is still in two pieces and is not a completed receiver. Once the receiver is completed, it will be registered.

Here we see more details. Note that thc chip out of the top of the rear cap on the trigger plate assembly happened during disassembly of the donor demilled sten. These late longbranches were spot welded and the surrounding metal was a bit brittle. This area will be filledwith weld and dressed to be invisible during assembly and welding:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2057.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2058.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2060.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2059.jpg
Also note that on all these builds, a replica of the wartime MkII cocking handle is being used, as opposed to the later MkIV and MkV handles found on most Sten kits. These handles are individually fitted on the lathe to the SAS bolt in question as there is some dimensional variance over the original sten bolts.

[Claven2]

Will do :) I'll post photos of it as it's developped and built, but I haven't started yet ;)

In the meantime, here are mode details of the build:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2062.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2061.jpg

[tiriaq]

The selector to safety conversion can be found at Sten Semi_Auto (http://browningmgs.com/Sten/Sten.htm).

[NavyShooter]

Can I request some close-up pics of a bolt and firing pin block?

I've seen a couple of pics of each, but I'd like to get a better reference set for my head to wrap itself around....thanks guys!

I've updated my thread on CGN, but basically, I'm progressing with building the bolt. And I've decided that my Sherline is too bloody slow.

NS

[Claven2]

some more progress. The barrel block has now been welded in. This gun will need to be registered over the next few days as I'm nearly ready to weld the mag housing (the legal "receiver") into a completed unit.

Here are the barrel block welds. Two are oxy-acetylene plug welds, while the thirs is a o/a notch weld. The notch weld was done instead of the plug weld so that the pin slot would not deform. Plug welds are easier to do with a MIG, but alas, I have neither a MIG welder nor the experience to use it well ;)

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2071.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2072.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2073.jpg

[Claven2]

Have made some further progress :)

Firstly, I found that the new cocking piece handle was causing the bolt to bind. This is because it's made of free-machining 12L14 leaded steel, which is soft, while the tube is made of stronger 1018 low-carbon steel. The solution was to harden the handle. I used Kasenit to surface harden the part - just follow the instructions that comes with Kasenit - and it's glass-hard now. No more binding.

Here we see some progress pictures. The black sten is a Suncorite painted original for comparisson purposes. It's an early-war Fazakerley, if that matters.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4703.jpg
Note that the magazines that came with my Stencollector kit have been straightened using the mag mandrel made earlier in this thread and have been bead-blasted to clean off the rust and crud. I am purposefully showing the sides of the mags that had been demilled by being axe-struck to show what this area will look like after cleanup. the crease line will always remain on most of these, but they are very serviceable. In the top-left are two original mags, one suncorited and one parkerized, for comparison.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4704.jpg

Note that my kit was from a 1945 Chinese Contract Longbranch Sten and had spot-welded tabs on the trigger housing. I had intended to keep this later-pattern construction, but in the end I could not. I tried spot welding them with a real spot-welder (automotive unit), but the welds did not penetrate deep enough to hold. I then tried drilling out the original welds to fill with weld, but I only have oxy-acetylene available to me, and I could not get the tube to heat enough without melting the tabs overly. MIG or TIG would probably have worked here, but I have neither the kit nor the ability. Silver solder would also work, but wouldn't look very "sten-ish". In the end, I just welded them "brit style", which is also how earlier Longbranches were made. It's not as pretty, but it's a Sten and it will work. Also a LOT easier to do. As a result, I think I will use a serial number in the "1L" range for this gun. The last 4 digits will be those from the kit I used.

A word of caution here: When I welded the tabs, the tube warped to the point it was bent about 1/4 inch and the bolt no longer would go all the way into the receiver! To correct this, I had to use a long brass mandrel and the OA torch to heat the bent area around the tabs cherry-red and then "persuade" the tube straight again. It's still out maybe 1/32" or so, but the bolt works, the sights line up, and I'm ready to call it good enough. Original Stens are often out this amount as they were usually made from rolled plate, not tube. If I were to do this again, I would turn a brass mandrel tightly fitted to the inner diameter of the tube to stiffen it when welding the tabs. This would prevent having to straighten bent tubes.

The other side:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4705.jpg

Barrel block details:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4706.jpg

Note that the legal receiver has not yet been welded together, serialized and completed. This should happen within the next week or so, along with registration - assuming I find time to work on it!

[Claven2]

ok, so you wanted details on the safety?

Firstly, the disconnector was notched along its length and a piece of vertical steel bar brazed on so that it was positioned about 1/3 into the diameter of the selector button. Then, a custom selector button was made on the lathe (and mill). The button and the disconnector are designed to work as the new safety.

Be aware that you do NOT want to affect the heat treatment on the disconnector tip. Before brazing on this part, pack the surrounding area in wet clay to insulate the extremities from the torch's heat.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4709.jpg

When engaged, the vertical bar prevents the disconnector from moving forward and dropping the sear.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4710.jpg
When disengaged, the safety lets the disconnector move forward, but only in semi-auto mode.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4711.jpg

The flat on the selector itself stops the button from rotating and jamming the trigger mechanism.

The new selector was drilled and two spring-loaded ball bearings swaged in like on an original selector. The "R" and "A" markings are larger than any stamp set I have, so I hand-cut them with a piece of sharp tool steel. It's not perfect because I'm not an engraver, but it's good enough IMHO.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4714.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4713.jpg

PS: As a word of advice, when holding finished parts in a vise, you are best to use a smooth-jawed machinist's vise, not the cheap serrated jaw vises sold at the local hardware stores - they mark up parts too easily. Alternately, you can have cheap vise jaws surface ground - in fact, the vise jaws in the photo were converted on a surface grinder from hardened serrated tool steel jaws.

[monkeycanada]

Thanks for the great pictures and useful advice on the conversion of the selector to a safety. I personal did not like the idea of welding the selector up, so the safety idea works for me.

[Claven2]

I should mention, making a new selector button that functions as a safety will require, at the very least, a lathe to make. Most of the home-built Sten project can be done with hand tools and a welder if you re-use the stock bits and have a usable original sten barrel barrel (if you make a MkII, you may also need to make or acquire a mkII .095" wall thickness tube). This mod, however, can't be readily done with hand tools. It isn't necessary to the function though :)

[Claven2]

Update:

My Sten receiver registration application is now submitted. I used the same serial number from the demilled kit I had, except that I changed it from 12L046X to 1L046X to account for the arc-welded appearance of my Sten.

Receiver markings are:
"STEN MKIISA"
"LONG BRANCH"
"1942"

This is the registration proceedure:

1) Call CFC tech George Fraser (613-949-6514) when your mag well is ALMOST complete.
2) Gary will verify over the phone and walk you through online registration as a RECEIVER ONLY.
3) Finish the receiver AFTER you have initiated registration - keep the confirmation printout with the receiver at all times.
4) Application will go to the CFO for approval/registration and the RCMP lab for a decision on if they want the gun for inspection.
5) AFTER you receive a cert for receiver only, you may assemble the firearm. 6) Call George back and have the cert ammended to a "complete firearm".
7) George will contact you to let you know if/when the RCMP want to see the gun in person. You will also need to submit pictures of you building the gun, so TAKE PHOTOS. The only part you need to prove you built is the mag well.

I also confirmed today, FRT number 126844 is only valid for the SAS3 type build. It does NOT cover any builds done open-bolt or using any other bolt group than an SAS3 or copy thereof, regardless what a certain individual on CGN claims. If you submit any other bolt design under that FRT number, the gun will very likely be either seized, or assigned a different FRT number if the RCMP find it acceptable.

The "-1" refers to caliber and barrel length, in this case a standard 9mm sten barrel.

[stencollector]

George was the same guy who helped me through my 2-1/2 year odyssey with my semi sten. Without his help, my sten would have been sent in with the original receiver and then declared a C/A prohib.

By "other individual", I assume you are talking about the S-AS Spenc HOmemade LEgal stens which have been appearing on CGN. It will be interesting to see his first post of a gun with a registration certificate.

[Claven2]

Yes, that would be the "other individual". Basically, George said that if you could make a "go fast" model with a drill or file in under a few minutes time AND it was a home-built gun, the boys and blue would seize it. It's not illegal and you won't be arrested b/c you registered it and duly submitted it for approval, but it won't get approved and will become part of the RCMP reference collection ;)

He said that the main reason the SAS conversion is valid is because FA sten parts can not be reasonably made to fit the gun, and making the SAS parts into FA would require some effort.

That being said, he did say an open-bolt gun would be no problem by itself, so long as it's not easily convertible. Such a gun would be assigned a new FRT number, however.

[NavyShooter]

So,

Would a home-built SAS-3 bolt be a problem, based on the discussions you've had with Mr. Fraser?

A big part of the reason I'm running my thread on CGN is to document the whole build for the registration process. I think the only thing I didn't take pics of so far was boring out the tube yesterday for the mag-well.

NS

[tiriaq]

I cannot see that it would make any difference whatsoever who made SAS type bolt parts. This has no effect whatsoever on the operating system.
The Tech's comment about an open bolt design being acceptable reflects the recent approval of the BD-38 and BD-3008, and the continuing non-restricted status of Gevarm, Voere and other similar .22 rifles.
As we are aware, it appears that a Mk. III type gun has been made which seems to have an intact original trigger mechanism, and which functions semi-auto because the original bolt has had its sear bent built up to extend across the bolt. It does not matter if the selector is set for repetition or auto, the bolt will hit the tripping lever, and semi auto fire will result. Of course, if an unaltered bolt were to be dropped in, the gun would be selective fire. I may of course be wrong (my wife suggests that this is the case, from time to time), but I would suggest that this semi auto conversion system would be laughed out of the examiners' lab. The reuse of an original magazine well is another issue.

[Claven2]

Of course, if an unaltered bolt were to be dropped in, the gun would be selective fire. I may of course be wrong (my wife suggests that this is the case, from time to time), but I would suggest that this semi auto conversion system would be laughed out of the examiners' lab. The reuse of an original magazine well is another issue.

I suspect, based on my chat with the tech, that such a design would NOT pass muster.

[Claven2]

here are some stylish pics of me building the legal receiver (mag well) - I wore a special shirt for Stevo's benefit:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2094.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2096.jpg
A buddy's third pair of hands helps. Here I am stamping in the serial number BEFORE the receiver is finished. It was registered at the 80% complete stage.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2099.jpg
Serial number:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2104.jpg
And here we have a "fake" double-stamped LB proof:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2107.jpg
And here I am stamping the model markings:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2102-1.jpg
Sadly, I didn't do as good a job stamping "LONG BRANCH" as I did STEN MKIISA:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2109.jpg
Markings all stamped in!
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_2110.jpg
***Note that in the photos, the relief cuts in the mag box are NOT cut. This shows the CFC techs that it is a new box, not an original LB box welded onto a collar. The mill cuts were made AFTER stamping***

[Claven2]

here are the pics of the now completed and registered receiver:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4715.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4716.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/IMG_4717.jpg

It's been bead blasted. If the RCMP approves it, I will park it too.

[J. Savoie]

I thought I might get you all to know better the french version of the Sten, the R-5 Gnome-Rhône also called "Sten de Limoges". I have a friend in France who pvovided me with pictures. So, MERCI Aldo27 for the permission granted to use your pictures.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_frenchsten2.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_pm_gno11.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_pm_gno12.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_pm_gno13.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_pm_gno14.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_R5accessoriesfromFrenchman.jpg


J. Savoie

[J. Savoie]

More pictures !

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_r5_gtn10.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_r5_gtn11.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_r5_gtn12.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_r5_gtn13.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_r5_gtn14.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_r5_gtn15.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_r5_gtn16.jpg

J. Savoie

[J. Savoie]

Last batch of pictures for the moment:

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_r5_gtn17.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/copie_de_vitrin11.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/FrontpageofR5manual.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/2v357ih.jpg


J. Savoie

[stencollector]

Here is an example of an original early LB sten housing. The earliest ones were handstamped, and the welds where the box meets the tube were cleaned up as well.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/stencollector/DSCF0074.jpg

Don't feel too bad if yours isn't quite as good as this guys work...he had already done 17 more before this one.

If you parkerize your sten, then it should have a single letter along with one, two or three numbers after it. This was stamped on the magwell, the barrel (under the nut) and the trigger housing sideplates. Not sure if these were batch numbers or inspectors marks. All the park'ed stens from Cdn service had it. You could use something like C08 (your initial and the year)

[Cantom]

Great pics J. Savoie! Note that sheet metal cover on the side surrounding the bolt handle...presumably that reciprocates with the bolt? You wouldn't want your fingers getting hit by that tab...Not sure what the function of that was but great pics!



http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/2v357ih.jpg

[Claven2]

Actually, that sheet metal tab rotates away under the gun - it's a safety.

[tiriaq]

Air pressure is a variable with any medium.
Glass beads can produce a fine peined surface which gives a really fine slightly matte blue, not unlike rust bluing.
Sand, aluminum oxide, silicon carbide, glass grit, etc. will all tend to cut more aggressively, once again depending on air pressure. For Parking or coating, a bit more tooth is desirable. If a firearm is somewhat pitted, an aggressive medium at higher pressure will tend to blend the miseries in together, and when finished, the efect is not bad.
Be careful with sand. Depending on the type and source, free silica dust is a possibility, and you do not want to inhale that. A cabinet can be given negative pressure with a vacuum, and this will greatly reduce exposure.

[J. Savoie]

Known variants we know we can make from the SAS-3 kit + parts kits are :

-Sten Mk3

-Sten Mk2 (for the moment the ONLY one with a FRT number)

-Sten Mk V (If you wish I might ask for permission to post pictures of one build here)

-R-5 Gnome-Rhône (well if one feels like it is possible I'm sure.)

-MP38 look-a-like

" A WHAT? " Will you say. So as words are good but pictures are better yet, take a look!

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/MP38STEN-1991-DWG1.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/MP38STEN-1991-DWG2.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/MP38STEN-1991-page-4.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/MP38STEN-1991-page-5.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/MP38STEN-1991-page-6.jpg


Who knows, maybe the idea is worth digging. What do you think? (comments please) By the way, I have the same images in .pdf format if anyones want 'em please PM and I'll send it (as long as we can insert attachments on PMs here.) Or give me your email so I email it from my personal email.



J. Savoie

[NavyShooter]

Posted a big picture update on my thread on the "other" site, but here's a couple that folks might recognize:

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/coffee/pics/STEN/may%2008%20039%20(Small).jpg

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/coffee/pics/STEN/may%2008%20040%20(Small).jpg

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/coffee/pics/STEN/may%2008%20057%20(Small).jpg

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/coffee/pics/STEN/may%2008%20061%20(Small).jpg

A bit of work tomorrow, and I'll be able to go get some more welding done!

Maybe early in the afternoon!

NS

[Claven2]

Great news! :) I received my registration certificate today (June 2nd). Now to have the cert amended from frame/receiver to complete firearm...

It took a little over 5 weeks.

Make = Homemade
Type = Commercial Version
Bbl Length = Frame/Receiver Only

[Claven2]

My cert was ammended today from a frame/receiver to a complete firearm. Though it may still come, there is no formal request in place for RCMP inspection - just a verbal warning that it may happen.

the ammended cert should arrive within 2 weeks.

[J. Savoie]

Now, a question that might just be of interest for those who still hesitate to begin their SAS : Is there any place where to find a template that will NOT need to be touched-up ? Those that are available on the web all seem to need the charging slot placed lower on the tube and a few other minor but still needed modifications. Even the templates from Luna and Diablo's will NOT work with the SAS-3 kits. I know, I asked them in an email and they said so.


J. Savoie

[Claven2]

You might want to try prexis sten. They have a mkII template available, but you may have to pay a nominal fee for it.

[J. Savoie]

Meanwhile, after having had to touch-up many times the templates available to me to finally have one at the correct dimensions and having practiced my cuts on a cheap muffler pipe, I finally glued on a template that was A-OK on my “good” tube.

I will still have to cut the openings and then make the 2 halves of the magazine well not forgetting to take PLENTY of pictures to join to my application to register a firearm (frame only). Then, when I’ll have received my cert., I will put it all together, WHEN I’ll have found a bolt kit (which I have plans here) and an 18½ inches barrel.

I must expect to be asked to send the final product but hey, it is the last of my troubles so much I am expecting it to be compliant to our laws. Oh sure I could have made the original barrel cut and rebuilt (i twas torch cut) but I wand a non restricted firearm so …


Note here how I had to displace the sear opening as on the original drawing.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/CopiedePhoto042.jpg

I pre-cut the sections to be cut on the template so when I make my cuts, the drill bit won’t tear off the template. Then I colored the bare tube with permanent ink pen as I did not have machinist blue or else I would have used it instead.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/CopiedePhoto044.jpg

As you can notice, the original template came from a Sten Mk5 template.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/CopiedePhoto043.jpg

[J. Savoie]

Today I finally began working on my SAS tube. There are the 3 simple steps I made. I am keeping from doing more work for now as I still don’t have a bolt conversion kit nor an 18½ inches barrel blank at hand.

I already had a rat tail file that was just the right size for today’s job. http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/01.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/02.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/03.jpg

[Claven2]

Looking good :) That tube looks familar, by the way... ;)

My lathe will be back up and running next week (still waiting on a replacement drive pulley to complete my rebuilt of it), so I may be able to produce some more tubes if there is any interest.

[J. Savoie]

Well it seems that I couldn't resist and went on with making another cut on my tube BEFORE I have a bolt conversion kit. Though I promised myself not to, I did it anyway. It is my little participation on the subject.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/16juillet2008005.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/16juillet2008006.jpg

Don't laugh at my slippers please. :rofl:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/16juillet2008007.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/16juillet2008008.jpg

Woups! One more broken drill bit! That makes 3. Next time I buy some, it won't be just plated Titanium. Better put some more dough on it and get some tools that last.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/16juillet2008009.jpg

Santa Claus has his helpers, I have my son to whom I say thanks! :super:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/16juillet2008010.jpg

By the way, Anthonin did not really use my tools but it made him feel "grown-up" posing for the picture. ;)
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/Copiede16juillet2008012.jpg

I went to the second next drill bit ( in 1/64th increments) to widen the holes but I should have skipped 2 at a time. Result: the drill bit bit and broke.
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/Copiede16juillet2008013.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/Copiede16juillet2008014.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/Copiede16juillet2008015.jpg

Even "Capitain Haddhock" from Tintin gave a hand! :lol:
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/Copiede16juillet2008016.jpg

Here is a proud boy and a good photographer
http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/Copiede16juillet2008017.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/16juillet2008022.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/16juillet2008023.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/16juillet2008024.jpg

[Claven2]

Update! :)

This morning the gun got parkerized. It looks nice except that some of the OA welds wouldn't park - guess I should have used a different rod? It's just a cosmetic thing tough. On the whole it looks pretty good.

Had the now registered completed Sten out to the range today to make holes in paper & test function.

It was a partial success. Brewster was there with me and shot some video of the event, so hopefully that will be up soon.

The gun does go Bang and is definitely a firearm. It also shoots to point of aim at 25 yards.

Bad news is I only got to run about 10 rounds trough her, pretty much as a single-shot. The issue is that the SAS3 bolt geometry is all wrong inside the extractor cut, so the extractor is not camming over the casing rims. For each shot, I had to manually depress the back of the extractor and shove the bolt forward so that I could get the pin to hit the primers.

I had two extractors available. On one I filed the bevel to a more gentle angle, but tht was not enough to solve the issue.

I took a closer look tonight and think I have solved the problem. Got some metal stock and made a small shim. I epoxied the shim into the extractor cutout in the bolt body so that the extractor now sits up higher at the proper angle, and also the back of the extractor is no longer fouling on the tube body when cocking. Hopefully I can get out again next week to give her another go. It is feeding drill rounds now though - that's a good sign IMHO.

[alexD92]

Since I saw the STEN thread on CGN, and recently have been in the liking of milsurps, i decided to check out this forum, and well, here i am in the sten thread.

So, i've been looking googling for blueprints on google for about half an hour, visiting different websites, etc. When i stumbled upon this:

http://infinitearms.com/images2/d/1764-1/STEN+BLUEPRINTS.pdf

I dont know if its very accurate, but its sure as hell is a nice guide.

Alex.

PS. cant wait to hear more about this project. I feel like making one myself, or maybe I could try to be different and build a Bren instead.

[Claven2]

ok, here are the much-anticipated (yeah, right...) videos of yesterday's testing of the Sten.

Video one started out with so much promise, only to end in disapointment. This is when we discovered the extractor wasn't snapping over the rim:

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/MOV02735.flv


Next, we had our first sucess. By manually pressing the extractor over the rim and shoving the bolt forward, we got the first round to fire:

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/MOV02736.flv


And in this final video, we checked to se if we could do a string. Alas we couldn't. Again, the extractor was the issue. Interestingly though, a sten does not need an extractor as it's a blowback design with fixed ejector. If I had brought a set of punches with me, we could have removd it and been in business. Ah well.

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/MOV02737.flv



In the end, we fired around 10 rounds between Brewster and I. Next weekend I hope to shoot some strings, IF my extractor fix worked and IF no other build quirks pop up to defeat me!

[J. Savoie]

Well guys, today was mock-up day! Good thing I did, I found that I overfiled the cuts on the tube where the end cap goes. I'll have to make a copper sleeve and rebuild the gap with the family MIG.

At least, things are coming together slowly but surely. Next tube I do I'll have it milled out. The lack or kraftmanship showes a little too much on this one. Looks like it was made in Afghanistan ! :lol:

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/24juillet2008001.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/24juillet2008002.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/24juillet2008003.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/24juillet2008006.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/24juillet2008007.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/24juillet2008008.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/24juillet2008009.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc114/pervscan/24juillet2008005.jpg

[NavyShooter]

Well,

I'm now in posession of a registration cert for mine!

WOOHOO!

I've tested a couple of primed cases, and need to shorten my firing pin a bit. No big deal, just a bit.

I installed the front sight tonight, which was interesting 'cause I only hade one triangle needle file handy, so it took a while to do.

I also cleaned up those ugly welds a bit. Not perfect, but much nicer anyhow.

So, I'm now, effectively, complete. I need to bring the gun down to the CFO this week to get it verified, but it's now done.

Woohoo!!!!!!

NS

[Claven2]

Allright, here's a short vid of it running as a repeater. It was still hanging up on feeding periodically, but maybe only 20% of the time. I now know this is because I had the cone angle wrong at the chamber end of the barrel . It was too shallow. (I measured two original barrels and used that average angle to re-cut my barrel bevel) I put it back in the lathe and re-belled it a little steeper and it now feed dummy rounds much more reliably.

http://s33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/DSCN0605.flv

[Claven2]

I have anothe build in progress, figured on filling in some "blanks" in the production process :)

Here is the steady rest being used to counter-bore the tube for the barrel collar:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/P9092638.jpg
Mocked up to ensure fit:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/P9092639.jpg
Scribing the lines on the tube (I find this works better than using the template). You need a scribe and a surface plate:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/P9112643.jpg
Cutting the templates out in the mill:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/P9172645.jpg

[Stan Rideout]

Here is a pic of my SA Sten.http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/Stan_038/HPIM0411.jpg

[Claven2]

Here are some pics of the one I finished (after parkerizing):
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA092685.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA092683.jpg
And next to a real brit MkII sten:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA092682.jpg

[Claven2]

Now here are some additional pics of the next build, as discussed above:

The ejector MIG welded in, along with plug welds for the barrel collar:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA052674.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA052675.jpg
Here we see the welds cleaned up with a file:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA052676.jpg
Here is an inside view of the ejector:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA052678.jpg
Here the trigger plate tabs are just tack welded on, but the trigger plate collar has been welded across the bottom at the back of the tube, tacked at the corner joints and solidly welded at the top of the tube. Welding done with a MIG machine.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA052679.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA052680.jpg

[NavyShooter]

Well,

3 test-fire sessions later, and I'm kinda frustrated.

Some folks might recall that I messed up my extractor slot a bit? My "new" extractor isn't working quite right, and though I'm getting the action to cycle properly now, I'm not ejecting the empties.

So, I'm at the point I think, where I need to mill the slot for the ejector a bit deeper, and lengthen the ejector a bit.

Will dabbing a bit of weld onto the end of the current ejector and filing/dremeling it down to shape work, or do you think I need to cut it out and put in a new one?

NS

[Claven2]

Some more progress on the new design. In this design, I lathed the center of an original selector button completely out, so that no matter what position it is in, it cannot act against the disconnector. Then I drilled a small hole in the remaining flange, big enough to hold a brad nail.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA132687.jpg
Next, I inserted the selector into the Sten, put in a section of steel rod cut from the above brad nail, and then MIG welded into the selector so that the pin cannot be removed. Now the selector can never be changed for an original un-modified selector and no matter the position, it will not press against the disconnector. This, coupled with the narrow disconnector slot, should go a long way to ensuring the gun remains a semi-auto, but the selector button still moves for nostalgic reasons ;)

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA132690.jpg

[Mick]

Here is a pic of my SA Sten.http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q230/Stan_038/HPIM0411.jpg

Looks nicely finished Stan.:thup:

[Claven2]

Mick, the slot was cut narrow enough to keep the disconnector in position (in theory). If it doesn't function in practice, I'll put an unmodified selector into the gun and weld it permanently in semi position. The trick to the narrow slot is to prevent the trip lever from ever bypassing the sear bent on the bolt.

[tiriaq]

Flanges could also be added to both sides of the tripping lever to prevent it from ever shifting off to the side.

[Mick]

Mick, the slot was cut narrow enough to keep the disconnector in position (in theory). If it doesn't function in practice, I'll put an unmodified selector into the gun and weld it permanently in semi position. The trick to the narrow slot is to prevent the trip lever from ever bypassing the sear bent on the bolt.

The reason I mentioned it is that the selector switch slot gives additional support to the the trip lever and helps keep it in the right place. ( I know you already know that ) I thought about doing this mod myself but decided against it because of the above and also as I think it makes it easier to make full auto. I will not post the details here.

[tiriaq]

FWIW, the BD-3008 has its "selector" cut away, very much like the one shown in Claven2's photo. The BD selector is also free to move, but because of the cutout, this has no effect whatsoever on the disconnector.
Another option is to convert the selector into a safety. This can be done in a couple of ways. Claven2's first build had a disconnector confined to the central position, with a selector that either permitted foreward movement of the disconnector, or blocked it, to provide a safety position. A second method is to allow the disconnector to move to the left, but to have a block welded to the inside of the trigger box, so that when the disconnector is in the left position, it cannot move foreward at all.
Both of these safety conversions act essentially as trigger blocks; neither locks the sear.

[Claven2]

Flanges could also be added to both sides of the tripping lever to prevent it from ever shifting off to the side.

I was thinking of plug welding blocks to either side of the mechanism casing to limit side-to-side travel as well. Will probably plug weld from the back side to ensure a solid bond. Pics to follow... though I doubt the gun needs this to function reliably. The CFO might like it as an added limiting measure though.

[Claven2]

The reason I mentioned it is that the selector switch slot gives additional support to the the trip lever and helps keep it in the right place. ( I know you already know that ) I thought about doing this mod myself but decided against it because of the above and also as I think it makes it easier to make full auto. I will not post the details here.

No problem Mick, I think you are referring to someone welding material back onto the selector to make it function again, but you would also have to mill or file out the slot to allow transverse tripping lever travel. To my mind, this would entail significant modification - but I don't know how the CFO feels about it yet. I will probably do the welded-in block mod to compliment this setup and make it even harder to modify.

[Mick]

A widened slot in the selector switch allows the trip lever to be moved, this is exactly what you don't want.

You already have a semi auto reciever which can not be converted without considerable modification. The weak spot is the trip lever it's self, if this can not easily be accessed then it can not be easily modifed. Make sure that the housing cover can not be easily removed and you have met the criteria.

I had a good face to face chat with George Fraser about registering an open bolt sten, it was quite an eye opener.


When doing this kind of thing it is easy to get bogged down with minor details and lose sight of the obvious.

[tiriaq]

George Fraser. Office: (613) 993-0038 (1068).
Might as well ask for the FRT number for a homemade open bolt semi auto Mk. II Sten at the same time.

[Claven2]

Once I have the innards cleaned up, I will probably tack weld the trigger pin in place so that the trip lever cannot be readily removed. That should help. I have now also welded in a guide block to further limit trip lever movement. Pics to follow later. Sadly, I accidentally fried my trigger spring when it got hit with a welding electrode... on the hunt for a replacement. This has stalled the current build - sadly. :(

[Claven2]

Time for a little Sten history. Some Sten guns suffered from "droopy mag" which was really a symptom of either a worn out mag well plunger or, more frequently, a barrel nut hole that had become oblong over time. This often meant the scrapping of the gun, or sometimes a puncher mag box or newer, larger plunger pin.

Since we are not military with many spares, it may pay to fix a droopy mag. Also, this repair can be used to correct by a few degrees if, like me, you accidentally weld in the collar a few degrees off on one of your builds... oops! But we can fix it, we have the technology...

First we drill out the hole to something larger, in this case 7/16", and tap it. Then we screw in an appropriately sized NON_ZINC_PLATED steel bolt or screw, well coated in permanent lock-tite. Do not tap all the way through, leave the bottom threads tight to get a good interference fit in the hole. Do not go through into the hole for the barrel, stop flush to the hole so the barrel still fits!
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB092708.jpg
Hack saw off the head and dress it down slightly below flush with a file:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB092709.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB092711.jpg
Now crank up the amps on your MIG welder and giver her a good deep plug welding:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB092712.jpg
File to match the tube contour:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB092713.jpg
Re-drill the hole and clean up the channel with the mill. DRILL ACCURATELY AND CAREFULLY. Start with an undersized drill bit and finish drill with the proper size drill. You may have to spot-aneal the weld if it is too hard.
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB092714.jpg

Good luck!

[Claven2]

Here's another mag well build. This time I opted for 4 pre-cut to size pieces of sheet steel plate:

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA202692.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA202691.jpg

Clean her up and machine a bit...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA242693.jpg

Weld onto a collar...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA272694.jpg

This gets easier each time you do it methinks...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PA272695.jpg
Line up the plunger tab and zap with the welder...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB112716.jpg
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB112717.jpg
Apply some markings...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB112719.jpg
And presto! ready for ejection port milling...
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB102715.jpg

Note: This receiver is currently in the process of registration. Some minor fitting remains to be done to make it functional pending registration.

[Claven2]

here are some preliminary design decisions in my quest to devise an acceptable open bolt design. BE AWARE. These design changes ARE NOT YET REVIEWED BY THE RCMP AND MAY NOT GET APPROVED. You would build and submit a gun like this at your own risk as it may get confiscated.

Here we see a steel block that has been cut to fit between the trigger box wall and the disconnector slot. Coupled with the above-detailed modified selector, the trip lever can now not be readily made to move over to the full-auto position and the steel block welded in from behind makes filing out the disconnector slot nearly impossible:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB112723.jpg
And here is the back side showing the plug weld:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB112722.jpg

[Mick]

Is that tig welding ? whatever it is it looks neat.

I have found that by far the fastest way to make the mag well is to use box tubing, it makes a tidy job with minimal effort.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_0500.jpg

[tiriaq]

"Now crank up the amps on your MIG welder and give her a good deep plug welding"....
Cost being no object TIG might well be the preferred system.
MIG equipment is somewhat less expensive. I don't think Claven is using a Linclon Electric welder, but Cdn. Tire has the Linclon MIGPak 140 and 180 on sale quite often. 140 amps and 180 amps maximum output (far more than needed for this sort of work). These units are ready to go for flux cored wire feed, just add a tank of gas for MIG. The larger 180 sells in the sale flyer for $599.95, the 140 for somewhat less. That is about half a TIG.

[Claven2]

"Now crank up the amps on your MIG welder and give her a good deep plug welding"....
Cost being no object TIG might well be the preferred system.
MIG equipment is somewhat less expensive. I don't think Claven is using a Linclon Electric welder

Actually, for this latest build, I'm using a 120v Lincoln Electric SP135. I think they discontinued that model last year, but some places still have it in stock. Mine is set up for both flux cored and gas, though in the pics where the weld is spattered in brown residue, I am using flux-cored wire because gas is expensive and I have lots of flux-cored wire lying about, so I only use gas when there is a real benefit to doing so :)

TIG is the way to go if you can justify the expense and take the time to learn how to properly use it. For home shops, it doesn't often make much sense though...

[Mick]

Actually, for this latest build, I'm using a 120v Lincoln Electric SP135. I think they discontinued that model last year, but some places still have it in stock. Mine is set up for both flux cored and gas, though in the pics where the weld is spattered in brown residue, I am using flux-cored wire because gas is expensive and I have lots of flux-cored wire lying about, so I only use gas when there is a real benefit to doing so :)

TIG is the way to go if you can justify the expense and take the time to learn how to properly use it. For home shops, it doesn't often make much sense though...


If you can weld like that with a mig then there is little point in getting a tig.
I have a mig with gas and can come nowhere close to the welding you have done on your magwell.


PS another thing I'm useless at is stamping the serial number etc neatly, how the hell do you do it ?

In future I'm not going to weld any visible welds on firearms with anything but a tig welder, a friend of mine welded the magwell below for me with a tig.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_0536.jpg

[Claven2]

Mick, the trick with the MIG is to use it at very high power. I have a dedicated 20A circuit for my machine and upgraded wiring to handle the extra impedance. To get good mag box welds, I crank up the power - literally.

[tiriaq]

The originals were welded using electric arc, oxygen/acetylene gas or electric resistance (spot) welding. Soft solder and rivets, too, on some, depending on the Mark, and/or period of manufacture. The ladies who assembled the originals would have been amazed to see a MIG, TIG, or flux cored wire feed welder in operation.

[Mick]

I have done some experimenting with my mig, and no matter what I can not do anything like what you can do with your mig. What you have done looks just like tig welding to me, I'm amazed.

[tiriaq]

Generally speaking, assuming that the machine is set for the appropriate amperage, and wire speed, and gas flow are correct, it is a matter of practice, and more practice. I remember when I first used a MIG, there were bits of wire stuck all over the place. One of my future purchases is going to be an auto darkening helmet. Just one less thing to have to mess with at the critical moment.
I have carefully examined a pair of rifle actions made from a couple of Mausers - one short, one long. The receivers, bolts, firing pins and magazine boxes had been cut and TIG welded. It was not apparent that any welding had been done. I am sure that Claven2 has seen these. Remarkable what a first class TIG welder can do.

[Claven2]

Yes, I've seen the mausers in question ;) I kind of know the smith who built them rather well...

As for MIG welding, technique is a HUGE part of it. You need to build up an appropriately large puddle of molten metal to start with. I then traverse across the joint with a sort of swirling pattern to get a nice thick weld similar to what you get from OA welding.

My first sten was built with OA, I used mig on this one because a) I have the gear and b) MIG is easier to use if you are practiced enough to know how best to use one.

[Mick]

I like magwells a lot. I'm not sure, but I think I think I may be developing an obsession :madsmile:

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_0555.jpg

[Mick]

here are some preliminary design decisions in my quest to devise an acceptable open bolt design. BE AWARE. These design changes ARE NOT YET REVIEWED BY THE RCMP AND MAY NOT GET APPROVED. You would build and submit a gun like this at your own risk as it may get confiscated.

Here we see a steel block that has been cut to fit between the trigger box wall and the disconnector slot. Coupled with the above-detailed modified selector, the trip lever can now not be readily made to move over to the full-auto position and the steel block welded in from behind makes filing out the disconnector slot nearly impossible:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB112723.jpg
And here is the back side showing the plug weld:
http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/sten/PB112722.jpg



Here's another way of blocking the trip lever.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_0666.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_0667.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_0662.jpg

[Claven2]

My open-bolt design is actually with the CFC and RCMP labs right now for approval. It's actually been with them for almost 2 months now.

Some key points are that in my version the sear pin and trigger pins are welded in so that the internals can no longer be removed for modification.

More to follow.

[tiriaq]

An RCMP approved open bolt design with an assigned FRT number is critical. Hopefully Claven2's will be accepted.
Haven't been able to find any homemade open bolt semi auto versions in the FRT to date, for Stens, Suomis or anything else.

[Claven2]

When I spoke to George Fraser last week, he indicated there are NO OPEN BOLT SEMI-STEN DESIGNS APPROVED IN CANADA - (yet).

So let's be clear - until a new FRT number is available indicating a legal open-bolt semi - I trust nobody will post photos of a completed gun matching that description.

[Claven2]

ok guys,

ALL non-build-related chatter has been cleaned up to make this thread capable of being followed again by readers. Please keep any future posting relevant and on-topic.

Thanks!

[Mick]

Auto disconnect trip lever.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1102.jpg

I got the idea from Tiriaq.

[tiriaq]

The idea is to add a second disconnect function to the trigger mechanism, independent of the tip of the tripping lever making contact with the bolt. Even if the trigger mechanism is sealed and not readily removable, an open bolt gun can be made to fire auto by grinding the tip off the tripping lever, (inserting a grinding tip through the cocking handle slot), or by cutting a lengthwise slot through the sear engagement surface of the bolt to clear the tripping lever. With this modification, as soon as the tripping lever moves far enough to release the sear, the wedge added to the tripping lever contacts the selector, and cams the tripping lever away downwards, so the sear will reset. Perhaps a modification like this might make the idea of an open bolt design more palatable.
Thoughts?

[Mick]

Another slightly more involved way to achieve the same result.

This stops the bolt handle from being removed, and consequently the bolt. The screw is fixed with permanent locktite and the allen key recess is drilled out.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1106.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1108.jpg


I think it would be awkward to grind the trip lever as is it hardened steel and held up by a rather weak spring. When force is applied it disapears into the trigger housing as it is designed to do.

[tiriaq]

With the blocking screw in place does the Mk. V handle still work?

[tiriaq]

Cut the handle off. Drill or grind the stump until bolt can be removed. A matter of minutes. Once the bolt is out, drill out remains of cocking handle from both sides, if the bolt is to be reused, otherwise just replace it.
Welding the recoil spring guide retainer solidly to the head casing would keep the bolt in longer, the stock could still be removed.

[Mick]

It is not easy to cut off the handle or grind the stump down as it has been hardened. ( Forgot to mention that: ) Getting the remains of the handle out would be no easier a the handle is a loose fit in the hole. Yes the bolt could be replaced, but it would be quicker to replace the entire gun, or use a rubber band YouTube - www.PoormansMachinegun.com Episode 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfwFP_RwTQ&feature=related)

Welding the recoil spring guide retainer in place would not be acceptable to me as it would be almost impossible to clean the gun.

[tiriaq]

Hardened steel is irrelevant to a cutting disc and grinder. Or a carbide drill bit. A common hardware store masonry bit will cut steel if sharpened.
It could be argued that what is acceptable to you is secondary to what is acceptable to the good folks who have classified your guns as prohibited. And it is important that the Mk. V cocking handle function as it should.

[Mick]

I am now in a postition to be able to ask exactly what modifications are acceptable for FRT numbers to be issued, as they are returning the guns for modifications to be made. I will post what's acceptable when I have it in writing.

[tiriaq]

That is a very positive sign. Means that the concept has not been categorically rejected.

[Mick]

I know this post is not specific to building stens, but it is relevant to anyone building one.


I have heard it mentioned several times that if the FRT group do not approve guns submitted then you will loose them forever. This is not the case if you know what to do.


The way to force them to return the guns is first to register them. This can be done at any time, even when they are in possesion of them. It does not matter what they are registered as. The purpose of registering the gun/guns is to force the CFC into revoking the registration, not to obtain obtain a registration certificate.

Once this is done you can start court proceedings under section 74 ( this costs nothing ), and their findings are automatically suspended until the matter is reviewed by your provincial court. In the meantime they have to return the guns, as their classification of prohibited is not binding until ruled so by the court.

If you are successful in court then great, if not then the guns can be resubmitted, and the entire process repeated, time and time again.

There is no need to be intimidated by the FRT group, just use the law to play them at their own game.

[tiriaq]

Just to clarify - a person fills out an application to register, either online, or on paper. Either method requires a FRT number and verifier information, whether the verifier is a voice on the phone from Mirmichi, or a real live local verifier. The verifier matches the gun being registered to an existing FRT number. If there is no number, one has to be created. That's done by the good folks in Ottawa. The application to register is submitted. This doesn't register the gun, it starts the process to register. The gun isn't registered until a registration certificate is issued.
How does the method you have proposed work?

[Mick]

My mistake, I should have made it clear that a refusal to register ( for what ever reason ) is the same as a revocation as far as section 74 is concerned.

References to a Provincial Court Judge

74. (1) [Reference to judge of refusal to issue or revocation, etc] Subject to subsection (2) where

(a) a chief firearms officer or the Registrar refuses to issue or revokes a licence, registration certificate, authorisation to transport, authorisation to export or authorization to import,

[tiriaq]

I know this post is not specific to building stens, but it is relevant to anyone building one.


I have heard it mentioned several times that if the FRT group do not approve guns submitted then you will loose them forever. This is not the case if you know what to do.


The way to force them to return the guns is first to register them. This can be done at any time, even when they are in possesion of them. It does not matter what they are registered as. The purpose of registering the gun/guns is to force the CFC into revoking the registration, not to obtain obtain a registration certificate.

Once this is done you can start court proceedings under section 74 ( this costs nothing ), and their findings are automatically suspended until the matter is reviewed by your provincial court. In the meantime they have to return the guns, as their classification of prohibited is not binding until ruled so by the court.

If you are successful in court then great, if not then the guns can be resubmitted, and the entire process repeated, time and time again.

There is no need to be intimidated by the FRT group, just use the law to play them at their own game.

A refusal to issue a certificate or licence can be appealed in court.

[Mick]

A refusal to issue a certificate or licence can be appealed in court.

Exactly, and in the meantime they have to return the guns.

In my case they gave me two choices. "I could modify the guns and resubmit them", or I could "take the matter before a judge and let the judge decide."

I chose to take both options:madsmile:

[Mick]

A little knick knack tp prevent access to the trip lever through the bolt handle slot. http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1128.jpg

I will be submitting another sten this week.

[J. Savoie]

A little knick knack tp prevent access to the trip lever through the bolt handle slot.



It may well be me who's not "fast" enough but could you elaborate please?

All I see is the addition of a rounded piece of metal to the "tail" of the bolt.
Is it screwed-on? Details please.

[tiriaq]

With the bolt closed, the tip of the tripping lever is visible through the cocking handle slot. This bolt extension would mask the tripping lever tip, making it more difficult to bypass the disconnect function.
Can't see that shortening the maximum bolt stroke by, what 5/8"? would make any difference.

[J. Savoie]

That's what I thought but I was wondering mostly how Mick attached the new part to the bolt tail. Is it screwed? Welded (it does not appear so)?

[Mick]

It may well be me who's not "fast" enough but could you elaborate please?

All I see is the addition of a rounded piece of metal to the "tail" of the bolt.
Is it screwed-on? Details please.


http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1113.jpg


It's pinned in place. As Tiriaq has said it covers the trip lever. It is about 5/8". The extra length makes no difference. As it happens the extra weight shortens the recoil stroke, but not enough to stop it working as it should.

[Mick]

That's what I thought but I was wondering mostly how Mick attached the new part to the bolt tail. Is it screwed? Welded (it does not appear so)?

It's pinned, the pin is covered with a spot of weld and filed down so the pin can't be seen. I could have just welded it in place, but I think doing it this way makes a neater job.

[J. Savoie]

Now it is clear. Thank you Mick and tiriaq.:super:

[Mick]

I have done a fair bit of testing with the auto disconnect trip lever, and it works very well when firing live ammo. I have cut a slot cut in the sear bendt of a bolt so that it will not contact the trip lever, and this has not so far allowed the gun to fire in anything but semi auto.

The thing that concernes me is that it is possible when dry firing to pull the trigger back just far enough to release the bolt without the disconnect disconnecting. I think that when live firing the recoil, light as it is, gives enough of a jolt to free the disconnect, but I'm not 100% happy with it. I want it to be working properly all the time when dry firing before I submit a gun with this mod.

In the mean time despite the FRT groups stonewalling I will be sending in a sten with the extended bolt etc. I have to say that I find the manners and professionalism of the FRT group to be seriously lacking.

Here is a copy of my latest attempt at communicating with Mr Smith...

Dear Mr Smith

Due to the absence of the digital photographs I asked for, I have tried to replicate what I think you have explained you did to a sten bolt in order to turn my semi auto MkII sten into a machine gun. To be sure there is no misunderstanding I would be gratefull if you would take a look at the picture below to verify that this is what you did. I need this verification to ascertain which modifications will best prevent my semi auto stens being converted again.

Is this what you did ? http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1122.jpg

In the near future I will again be submitting a semi auto MkII sten for inspection,with more firearms to follow after that.

I think it is in the interest of everyone concerned that we cooperate with each other.

Please reply to this email, and to the previous email that I sent to you twice.

Thank you

Mick Boon

[tiriaq]

Would it make any difference to the second disconnect if the cam were at a steeper angle, so that the downward movement of the tripping lever were more abrupt, and perhaps more positive?
Would this be a fair list of the modifications to date for semi-auto only functionning? Bolt altered with full width bent for sear engagement; tube slotted to prevent lateral movement of the tripping lever; slotted block added to the trigger box to prevent lateral movement of the tripping lever; change lever fixed to prevent lateral movement; bolt made inconvenient to remove to increase difficulty of substituting one with a slotted bent; bolt spigot lengthened to block access to tip of tripping lever; trigger mechanism cover fixed to prevent ready access to the mechanism.
The classification as prohibited used the phrase "was found to be easily converted to fire full-automatic in a relatively short period of time, with relative ease". How long would it take to defeat aspects of your redesign in order to allow full-automatic fire, and what tools would be needed? What is a reasonable definition of "a relatively short period of time"? Ten minutes? One hour? Two Hours? Half a day? "With relative ease"? By an average tinkerer with conventional home shop tools? Being a devil's advocate here - if you do go to court, the answers to these questions will be relevant.

[Mick]

I don't think it would make a difference if the slope was at a steeper angle, apart from making it release the sear sooner. If the angle were to steep it would disconnect from the sear before it had released the bolt. I think I have it at the optimum angle as it is now.

That would be a fair list of modifications.
The extra modifications would approximately double the time it took to convert it. It could be done with simple hand tools. The gun was built with hand tools.

I have no idea what the standards are, they seem to make them up as they go along. Most semi autos they grantrestricted or non restricted FRT numbers for can be converted to full auto easier than the stens I have sent for inspection.

The only way to get the answers is to go to court, I have a date set for the 13th of next month.

Im not after preferential treatment, just a level playing field.Iwill ask how it is that other semi autos have been granted non prohibited FRT numbers when they can be converted to full auto in a couple of minutes.

[J. Savoie]

For what I could find here and there, the only new SEMIAUTOMATIC Stens that are reviewed by the RCMP are those from Sasksten. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm right. Anyone had confirmation on this one? My SAS3 based Semi Sten Mk2 build is still on ice 'til I know more.

[tiriaq]

The FRT number for a SAS type gun is not active, and cannot be used to register a gun. Don't even try. The FRT numbers for the SaskSten guns are active, but cannot be used either. There may be some developments in the not too distant future.

[J. Savoie]

tiriaq thanks a lot for the update. As you said, waiting is the word for the moment. :thup:

[Mick]

There may be some developments in the not too distant future.

You can safely bet on that. : )

In the meantime the stens have been returned, and I have submitted another one. I expect to be sending in more guns for approval soon, which no doubt will pi$$ them off even more.:madsmile:

The FRT group do not seem to have any standards for testing guns, ( least non that they have made me aware of despite requests ) the whole business really is a farce.

[Mick]

The hearing date is set for July 6th at Melville provincial court. I am pleased to say that Mr Murray will be called to give evidence. I will at last have ample oportunity to question him directly:bash:.

As part of my case I will be showing the court seven fast and easy methods of converting semi automatic firearms into fully automatic firearms.

Starts 6th July 10am, all are welcome. It should be great fun :D

[tiriaq]

Today's the day!

[J. Savoie]

Let's hope the SAS3 builds will see a good faith. :bow:

[Mick]

Today's certainly is the day, well it was yesterday at least.

Things got off to an awkward start when I had to object to the crowns witnesses being in court before they had been called to give evidence.

After a while when things eventually started to get going and I revealed what I intended to show in court the judge asked me if I would be willing to have a meeting with the firarms people. I said that I had been trying to talk to them for the past six months but that I had continally been stonewalled, and the only reason we were all in court today was because they would not speak with me. He asked if I would meet with them now if he adjourned the hearing. I stated that I would like nothing better and the hearing was adjourned.

I was able to have a very productive conversation with representatives from the FRT group and the CFR. The end result being that we were able to able to come to a mutually acceptable agreement. I then officially withdrew my application.


What really ****es me off is that this could have been sorted out six months ago with a simple telephone call. What a waste of everyones time.

Anyway all's well that ends well I guess.

PS, I half expected some kind of communication before the hearing, but I did not expect it to happen when I had taken the witness stand.

[tiriaq]

So, what are the implications of your agreement respecting your Stens? Are they being reclassified as restricted?

[Mick]

We were able to discuss what was acceptable and what was not, and it was determined that gun that I sent in last thursday would make the grade for restricted status.

[tiriaq]

Well, its going to be a bit of work to rebuild your earlier guns to the newly agreed upon design, but that is preferable to losing them as prohibs.
How is your Suomi affected by all this?

[Mick]

Well, its going to be a bit of work to rebuild your earlier guns to the newly agreed upon design, but that is preferable to losing them as prohibs.
How is your Suomi affected by all this?


Modifying the stens I have built is not really that big a deal in the scheme of things, the mods are nothing I would describe as major. I am just happy that I will be able to get up and running at last.

The Suomi is toast, but it will rise from the ashes :D

[monkeycanada]

Well done Mick, you went to court for all who want to legally build an open bolt semi-auto sten

[Mick]

Well done Mick, you went to court for all who want to legally build an open bolt semi-auto sten

Thanks.

Let's hope they will cooperate with everyone now, there is no need for any of us to be at war.

[Mick]

Titiaq, What's with the negative things you have been saying on CGN ? It makes no sense:dunno:

[Mick]

Modifying the stens I have built is not really that big a deal in the scheme of things, the mods are nothing I would describe as major. I am just happy that I will be able to get up and running at last.

The Suomi is toast, but it will rise from the ashes :D


I have two designs for the suomi both of which I will build. One will look like a suomi but will have different trigger mechanism and a cocking handle like thishttp://www.brpguns.com/images/061809misc/stgw22.jpg

Just for the hell of it, the other one will be a hybrid between a sten and a suomi and will look like thishttp://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1240.jpg

[Mick]

I have decided to name the above guns the Murray Smith MkI and Murray Smith MkII, as it was he who gave me the inspiration to build them.

[Mick]

My open-bolt design is actually with the CFC and RCMP labs right now for approval. It's actually been with them for almost 2 months now.


No news yet ?


Some key points are that in my version the sear pin and trigger pins are welded in so that the internals can no longer be removed for modification.

More to follow.

Don't worry about welding the pins, it's not necessary.

I have a new sear disconnect design which I think will work well. Using this design it should also be possible to use the selector switch to keep the trip lever disconnected at will. The trip lever slot in the tube will not be needed. I will submit this design with the sten suomi hybrid, and if successful I will also use it on my stens.

[tony]

Hey Mick ,now that you won the good fight how about building a nice semi auto Thompson M1928?

[J. Savoie]

Too bad, it is already prohibited by name. I have a semiauto 1927 A1 DeLuxe and it is still prohibited.

Royal Canadian Mounted Police - Canadian Firearms Program | Gendarmerie royale du Canada - Programme canadien des armes à feu (http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/r&p_f.asp)

These are all prohited by name:

a. Thompson Model 1921;
b. Thompson Model 1927;
c. Thompson Model 1928;
d. Thompson Model M1;
e. Auto-Ordnance M27A-1;
f. Auto-Ordnance M27A-1 Deluxe;
g. Auto-Ordnance M1927A-3;
h. Auto-Ordnance M1927A-5;
i. Auto-Ordnance Thompson M1;
j. Commando Arms Mk I;
k. Commando Arms Mk II;
l. Commando Arms Mk III;
m. Commando Arms Mk 9;
n. Commando Arms Mk 45.

[tony]

Boy J. Savoie,you're one of the lucky Canadians who can own one.That things like gold.Maybe if they use it's nick name Thommy gun it wouldn't sound so bad and they'll make it non-restricted.Just my sarcastic way of showing what I think of our gun laws.

[Mick]

Too bad, it is already prohibited by name.

That's an easy problem to solve, call it something else. How about calling it a Tonygun:)


I just this minute came in from testing firing a gun that's been bought by someone called Tony, but it's a MkII sten.

[tony]

Hope it went O.K. Can't wait to get it !!!

[J. Savoie]

Mick even calling it differently, they say:
•The firearm of the design commonly known as the Thompson submachine gun, and any variant or modified version of it, including the:

So I guess that we could not make a copy or a variant either. :thdown:

[Mick]

I think they got us on the design.

[J. Savoie]

I'm afraid so! :banghead:

[tony]

It's times like this when I wish I had a full auto Sten,Thompson or MP40 handed down to me in the 1960's from a relative and had it registered then, so I woudn't have to have it butchered,I mean deactivated.

[J. Savoie]

Tony imagine, when the law that made full autos grandfathered passed, on January 1rst 1979, I turned 18 just 18 days later (Jan. 19 1979). So, had the law passed as of February first 1979, I would be a bona fide Full Auto collector. Talk about bad timing! :crying: :bitch:

[tony]

Man, that's gotta hurt!!!!!!

[J. Savoie]

You bet! Every time I think about it I come THIS close ---} {--- to crying! :banghead:

[Mick]

Here's a simple selector / safety switch conversion. It works really well.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1306.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1307.jpg

[Mick]

I don't think stens ever had a proper safety, but I can't think why.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/th_MVI_1294_1.jpg

[Mick]

Lots of views, but not any posts recently. Perhaps Claven2 etc have become bored with sten guns:confused:

I've been busy learning how to use the new milling machine, it's nice to be able to everything under one roof.

I have made a couple of MkIII's that just need finishing off, and have started on a MkI*. The MkIII sight rails were a pain to do previously but not any more.

Here's a pic of the new machine at work.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1460.jpg

[tony]

Mick, please,please,please don't start making the MkV's yet.I can't afford it right now.Keep up the good work.

[Claven2]

No, not exactly bored, just working on other projects at the moment. Iv'e built 3 in total, all MkII types. First two were SAS3's and sold on CGN, last one was open-bolt and I still have it, it remains unblued and is still in CFC limbo, every month or two, I call and ask what's up with it, and they promise to get back to me, then don't... lol. In the meantime, it is registered as a receiver with paperwork to prove I tried to change status, so theoretically I could go wail with it IMHO.

[Claven2]

PS: What kind of mill you running? I changed out mine recently to a Busy Bee knee mill - MUCH better than the Mill/Drill I had before.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d85/Claven2/workshop/DSCN0861.jpg

[Mick]

last one was open-bolt and I still have it, it remains unblued and is still in CFC limbo, every month or two, I call and ask what's up with it, and they promise to get back to me, then don't... lol. .

That sounds familiar. If I were you I would be tempted to send it to them so as to get it sorted once and for all. Let them know you are serious, I have a feeling you will be waiting forever if you don't. On the other hand if you just want to get it registered I can help you out with that.

They have a gun of mine in for inspection at the moment, and I have another one to send in this week.

That's a really nice looking machine you have there, is it the 2hp one ?

Mine's an RF45 clone. If that means anything to you then you know a lot more about milling machines than me.

Here's a couple of pics...

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1440.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1457.jpg

[Mick]

I did some test firing before giving the MkIII's a finish this evening, the windage is spot on. I was a bit concerned about this with the fixed front sights. The new machine is doing it's job.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1473.jpg

[J. Savoie]

Nice job Mick!:thup: Now, either a Mk2 or a Mk3 unrestricted without the anteater look would be even better. :D

[tiriaq]

How can that be done? With an 18 1/2"+ barrel, Stens get really long. Bad enough with the US mandated 16" barrels. With the 8" barrel a Sten is about 30" long. Add 10 1/2", its up over 40". The handling is really affected as well. If a non-restricted version were made, perhaps a dummy barrel unit could be used for display.
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p155/tiriaq/IMG_1826.jpg
http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p155/tiriaq/IMG_1919.jpg
Adding a Mk. IIS style canvas wrap might make the barrel assembly look shorter, but the gun is still pretty ungainly.
I suppose it depends on how important non-restricted status is.
I am not aware of any non-restricted Sten FRT numbers.

[J. Savoie]

How can that be done? With an 18 1/2"+ barrel, Stens get really long. Bad enough with the US mandated 16" barrels. With the 8" barrel a Sten is about 30" long. Add 10 1/2", its up over 40". The handling is really affected as well. If a non-restricted version were made, perhaps a dummy barrel unit could be used for display.

- SNIP -

Adding a Mk. IIS style canvas wrap might make the barrel assembly look shorter, but the gun is still pretty ungainly.
I suppose it depends on how important non-restricted status is.
I am not aware of any non-restricted Sten FRT numbers.



I know that there were no MkIII with silencers but as long as a fake silencer (very thin, to keep the weight as light as possible) would allow one to use his semi Sten wherever long guns can be legally used. No permit to transport would be worth the inconvenients that go with such a long barrel.

At least that's how I see it.

[tiriaq]

The casing in the photo above is a piece of 1 1/2" EMT - pretty thin. There are some 4130 options as well. Those photos were taken some time ago, applied a quick and dirty coat of BBQ paint since then. Doesn't look too bad. Still haven't decided what to do with the set, whether to use it on a restricted carbine, or try for a non-restricted.
A III could be made with a full length tube, which I think looks better than an add-on dummy suppressor casing. Still pretty long, though. Why not mock one up, see how it looks. Or a Mk. I* could be replicated. Having the collar as part of the mag. housing might break up the length of the tube, improve the appearance.
That unit in the photo does make for an ungainly Sten.
How would Law 9 affect your making a restricted longarm?

[Mick]

Nice job Mick!:thup: Now, either a Mk2 or a Mk3 unrestricted without the anteater look would be even better. :D



You are always talking about an unrestricted sten without an anteater look:madsmile: Why not make one ? Maybe you could even persuade Dix to part with his long barrel :)

I think they are nice looking guns when built with the sight rail, I'm pleased with the result. Here's a pic showing the tabs.http://i958.photobucket.com/albums/ae70/czechthis_bucket/IMG_1484.jpg?t=1253164377
Here's a pic of the tab bender jig I used.

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1378.jpg

Next time I speak to Mr Smith I will ask him if I would need to send a gun in with a full length barrel to get a non restricted FRT number. I have a feeling that the anwer would be yes, but you never know.

PS, I am sure a 9mm bullet would shoot down a curved barrel. If you were to bend his barrel around a mandrel to make it like a spring you could probably reduce it from an 18 1/2" barrel down to 9".

[tiriaq]

As an experiment, put a blank tube into a trigger box/head casing unit, and measure to see how long it would have be to shroud a 18 1/2"+ barrel. I don't think you would find it appealing. Although a non-restricted version would likely find buyers, nevertheless.

There is nothing in the law that says a barrel has to be straight, is there......
As long as the last 2 or 3 inches aligned with the sights, it should shoot OK......

[stencollector]

Here are a couple photos of a mk2 SAS sten with a 18.5" barrel. I built the dummy silencer slightly longer than stock and left the 4" of barrel protruding unfinished so it doesn't stand out as bad. The gun is, as Tiriaq points out, somewhat nose heavy. There was an early version of the sten silencer that was 21" long IIRC so a very long silencer is not completely out of order.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/stencollector/DSCF0015-2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/stencollector/DSCF0009-3.jpg

As with most sten barrels, but more so with the long barrel, I had to rotate it until the bullets were closest to the zero position. Then I marked the barrel for future indexing.

[Mick]

That don't look bad at all. How does it shoot with the long barrel ?

The magwell collar looks like a Mk1.

[Mick]

When you thought you had seen em all:madsmile:

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/140364000/140364776/pix845564562.jpg

[Claven2]

Mick is that one you are making?

[Claven2]

That sounds familiar. If I were you I would be tempted to send it to them so as to get it sorted once and for all. Let them know you are serious, I have a feeling you will be waiting forever if you don't. On the other hand if you just want to get it registered I can help you out with that.

They have a gun of mine in for inspection at the moment, and I have another one to send in this week.

That's a really nice looking machine you have there, is it the 2hp one ?

Mine's an RF45 clone. If that means anything to you then you know a lot more about milling machines than me.

Here's a couple of pics...

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1440.jpg

http://i179.photobucket.com/albums/w315/Orriblebastard/IMG_1457.jpg

Hi Mick,

Yes, it's the 2hp model and yes, I know what a Rong-Fu 45 is :) I suspect yours is from Machine Tools Warehouse?

As for my sten, have to re-ping the lab this week. They are supposed to be contacting me to send it in, still haven't yet.

[Mick]

Mick is that one you are making?

No:D That's the last thing I would build.


I did indeed get my mill from machine tools wearhouse. I have rapidly come to the conclusion that I need a flood coolant system for it. I am gethering the components needed at the moment. DRO will be next.

[Mick]

Does any one know where I can get some good close up photos of a MkI front sight ? I have a MkI* as good as finished apart from the front sight, I just need to know what it should look like to finish the gun.

Pic removed by moderator

[Mick]

Got it.

Pic removed by moderator

[Mick]

Pic removed by moderator

[tiriaq]

Registered and FaRT'd?

[Mick]

Registered and FaRT'd?

You must be joking. It will take at least three months to get that done. As it happens I spoke to Mr Smith today. I told him I want my drum sten back, I asked him where in the que it was and was told it is next to be tested. I also asked him whether I needed to send in guns with 18 1/2 " barrels to get non restricted Fart numbers, he told me I don't have to, they will take my word for the barrel length.

Do you have any idea what diameter screws should hold the barrel retaining collar in place ?

[tiriaq]

The shank of the screw needs to be large enough that one half of it is engaging the collar, and one half engaging the bushing, with enough engagement to hold the barrel in. I suspect that a number 10 screw would work. Original would have been BA; perhaps a 10-24 05 10-32 would suffice. Or a 8- could be tried.
The reason I ask about registration status is that this thread is about making a legal reroduction of the Sten. Not entirely convinced that posting a photo of a currently unregistered gun is all that helpful.

[Mick]

The reason I ask about registration status is that this thread is about making a legal reroduction of the Sten. Not entirely convinced that posting a photo of a currently unregistered gun is all that helpful.

It is a legal reproduction. How the hell is anyone going to get a gun registered without making one first ?

Making guns is legal in Canada.

PS, I am not 100% sure that the screws should be seen from the top. The barrel retaining collar on the MkI* is slightly different from a MkI. I would like to see a good photo of a MkI* before installing longer screws from the top rather than underneath..

[Badger]

You must be joking. It will take at least three months to get that done.

That may be, but I DO NOT want pics of HOME MADE basement efforts on this site. :nono:

It is a legal reproduction. How the hell is anyone going to get a gun registered without making one first ?

Making guns is legal in Canada.

That may be, but I DO NOT want discussions of HOME MADE basement guns on this site. :nono:

What was the agreement I said "YES" to when I joined? (click here) (http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=172)

I think this thread, although interesting to some folks, has wandered off the primary mission statement of this site, clearly agreed to when people join. This site is about the collecting of old military surplus firearms, accessories, ammunition, and accoutrements, not about how to build your own home made firearms and get them registered.

Thanks, but it's time to get back to our knitting ... :thup:

Thread Closed !

Regards,
Badger (Doug)