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View Full Version : german marked SMLE (real or fake?)



superbee
08-15-2010, 08:25 AM
Is this a real or fake marked SMLE??On another board everbody said it is fake.Not the right stamps,not stamped in the right spot etc.

It is a 1917 Enfield,all matching including original enfield marked wood.
It went throught australian FTR MA/52.The bayonet lug,middle band,safty strap and barrel were replaced with australian marked pieces.The yellow paint indicates cadet use at some time.
All the other post war FTR's from australia I have seen had replaced wood, why not this one?
Everyone said if it went throught FTR the german markings should have been removed.It would not have been issued post war with german markings.

The germans must have captured 1000's of Enfields early in the war.
Are there any legimate german marked enfields out there?





1500215003150041500515006

Peter Laidler
08-15-2010, 08:46 AM
I haven't seen any officially marked ones but I have seen an 'unofficially' marked Bren gun that is marked on the gun body with stamps, in true old German lettering, to the effect that it belonged to the Hannover volksturm or home guard, such as they were. It was/is an early double dovetail 1939 gun so was probably captured at Dunkirk. It's previous history isn't well known or documented but certainly since 1955ish it was on the books of the Wiltshire Yeomanry and then into Cadet Force use, then DP'd and regularly covered in the usual black paint until it went in to be properly converted to L54A1 spec. Only then did the stamp marking become apparent.

And don't worry Bren Fiends, it's been tagged by the powers that be and will come to Warminster

bearhunter
08-15-2010, 03:24 PM
I noticed on National Geographic channel yesterday that German uniformed soldiers were carrying No1 MkIII rifles. It was only the one episode of several that followed back to back. The soldiers, may or may not have been German. It was likely they were from some other Axis country.
They looked like they were either prison guards (POW) or maybe railroad or highway police. Hard to say. The time frame was only a minute or so. I've seen this segment, once before.
I've also heard it rumored that Axis forces, augmented their armaments and short supply of Mausers, by issuing captured equipment to rear echelon troops. It was common on the Russian front and I know a lot of captured French, Polish, Czech and Belgian equipment was utilised as well. Why not perfectly good NoI Mk III rifles.

Jean Plamandon had several "Austrian" police marked NoI MkIII rifles for sale last year.

Mk VII
08-15-2010, 04:20 PM
They had huge quantities of Czech and Polish equipment, and it took the German service cartridge.

Badger
08-15-2010, 04:45 PM
Is this a real or fake marked SMLE?? On another board everbody said it is fake. Not the right stamps,not stamped in the right spot etc.

Ok, I have to ask ... :lol:

Bear with me as I'm not an Enfield collector, but if there are people who claim it's a fake, why would anyone in their right mind go to all that trouble to fake German markings on what is essentially a cheap old SMLE? :confused:

It can't be for profit as it just isn't worth that much and you'd think that anyone with the stamps to do it, would certainly realize it would be a tough sell to an Enfield collector crowd. :lol:

It's one of the best novelty and most unique pieces I've seen on here, well, of course next to John Sukey's Collection of Oddities and Unusual Pieces (click here) (http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=300-John-Sukey-s-Collection-of-Oddities-and-Unusual-Pieces).

Regards,
Badger

krinko
08-15-2010, 05:49 PM
The other board is Gunboards and I went and asked the guys from the 98k Forum over there to come to the Lee Enfield Forum and comment.
The fake Waffenamt-ish eagle, aka "Fatboy", that is marked on this rifle has been intermittently available as a set of "antiqued" stamps on e-bay for a couple of years---and has been showing up on cooked German rifles during the same period.
In fact, the whole Third Reich artifact thing is so full of fakery, the experienced collectors there are out of credulity and very, very good at spotting them.
So I got a couple of the best to come and explain things---which they did in no uncertain terms.
Strange markings stamped on SMLE (pics added) (http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?183940-Strange-markings-stamped-on-SMLE-(pics-added))

Go and see.
-----krinko

PS. Badger, there are lots of people who will pay a premium to get a German capture marked rifle. I had a legitimate 1939 MAS 36 with the proper Waffenamt, in the proper place---bought for $80 and sold for $400.

RJW NZ
08-15-2010, 08:42 PM
The possibility of being real does exist, whether yours is I don't know.

I've seen several pics of german troops on patrol carrying enfields in occupied village/s in France.
They were captioned, if I roughly remember, as captured weapons either from Dunkirk, and for some reason I also keep thinking of that Canadian debacle/invasion whose name I forget. There was some comment about 303 either being available ammo to german troops in the west, or in the event of a fight, the commonality of needing 303 and maybe getting some from invading forces, and as a result they only saw German service in the western areas ie France. I'm not sticking up for this, just remembering the post or what ever I saw.
If there are such a thing as genuine Austrian enfields, why not this?

Warren
08-15-2010, 10:15 PM
Believe it or not they do exist. A small quantity of BOTH Bren's and No.4 Lee Enfields were imported into Canada back in the mid to late 80's that had Nazi markings on them. As to whether the one in question is kosher or not I'd not venture a guess, however I did see the Nazi parked ones and kicked my **s for not buying a Bren at the time... I estimate there was around 20 or so such marked Brens in the peoples republik du Kanada and another small amount (under 50) of No.4 Lee Enfields. Perhaps the furniture ended up on an FTR'd rifle...never say never with a Lee Enfield.......

curly
08-16-2010, 03:29 AM
This wouldn't be another "AFAC" special would it?...

Curly

Peter Laidler
08-16-2010, 04:02 AM
FTR rifles leave the factory like NEW and although I'm not as familiar with the Lithgow FTR system as I am with our own (but even then, was VERY familiar with it in the 60's.......) the notion that this one didn't have the woodwork linished clean is simply beyond comprehension. Is there a bit of confusion creeping in on the forum as elsewhere it's been refered to as a P14 or a 17? I have to say that I NEVER saw a P14 or 17 in a school cadet corps in Australia although I have to also admit that I never saw many Cadet rifles either

Alan de Enfield
08-16-2010, 05:14 AM
FTR rifles leave the factory like NEW and although I'm not as familiar with the Lithgow FTR system as I am with our own (but even then, was VERY familiar with it in the 60's.......) the notion that this one didn't have the woodwork linished clean is simply beyond comprehension. Is there a bit of confusion creeping in on the forum as elsewhere it's been refered to as a P14 or a 17? I have to say that I NEVER saw a P14 or 17 in a school cadet corps in Australia although I have to also admit that I never saw many Cadet rifles either

I think it is a 1917 dated SMLE and not a P14 / P17 (The pics certainly show a SMLE) so there should be no confusion.

breakeyp
08-16-2010, 08:38 AM
Ok, I have to ask ... :lol:

Bear with me as I'm not an Enfield collector, but if there are people who claim it's a fake, why would anyone in their right mind go to all that trouble to fake German markings on what is essentially a cheap old SMLE? :confused:

It can't be for profit as it just isn't worth that much and you'd think that anyone with the stamps to do it, would certainly realize it would be a tough sell to an Enfield collector crowd. :lol:

.

It's one of the best novelty and most unique pieces I've seen on here, well, of course next to John Sukey's Collection of Oddities and Unusual Pieces (click here) (http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=300-John-Sukey-s-Collection-of-Oddities-and-Unusual-Pieces).

Regards,
Badger

Twenty years ago, a local wit stamped a 7mm (not 8mm French) Remington rolling block with fake German Waffenampts and drove the local Nazi experts carzy. I am sure it has changed hands so many times it is now legit due to the preponderance of former owners who don't want to be exposed as having been suckered. Remember the fake Nazi markings on the Straight pull Mannlichers about 8 years ago? I think people do this because they can and some how feel superior to the suckers they take advantage

enfield303t
08-16-2010, 10:42 AM
Saw the show bearhunter refers to and saw the No 1's and am thinking along the lines of Badger, why would you waste the time to fake one as it would not make a huge difference in the price. Thinking logically with the tens of thousands of weapons captured in France why wouldn't you use them especially for non front line troops? It looks very good and personally I would have bought it in a heartbeat and know it has a "great home" now.

jonnyc
08-16-2010, 02:20 PM
The thread on the other forum is very convincing. There are hundreds or even thousands ($$$) of reasons to create such a rifle, and there are two very good reasons why someone might post about and defend it:
1. They paid big money for a story and they want to feel good about their purchase.
2. They created this fantasy piece and want to build up a buzz about this rare and controversial item prior to sale.

bearhunter
08-16-2010, 05:35 PM
johnnyc, that's like saying the CMP is the only credible source of information on US milsurps. For some reason, the US seems to be full of fakes. Such an off the cuff assumption isn't logical.

I don't really believe that by the way. Milsurp rifles were captured, stamped and used by opposing nations. There are literally thousands of Mosins and other soviet weapons that bear Nazi stamps. The same goes for Portuguese, Belgian, Lithuanian, Norwegian, Danish and French weapons to name a few. It wouldn't surprise me one bit to say there is good probability that US equipment may have also been stamped in such a manner. Especially lend lease stuff or Latvian stuff.

I had a Canadian, Inglis Hi Power, which I purchased in 1970 that had both Canadian and Nazi Marks. The fellow I bought the pistol from had recaptured it from a German artillery sergeant in Normandy. Now how in blue hades did a German sergeant manage to come across a Canadian built and issued Hi Power, that early in the war? I have absolutely no idea how those stamps got on that pistol but a very intrepid collector, paid a handsome premium for it. It certainly couldn't have been captured at Dieppe or Dunkirk, the pistols hadn't even been manufactured yet, unless it was a "trials" version.

In this case, I suspect the pistol was stamped, with proper equipment, by an unscrupulous REME, looking to sell souvenirs. The stamps were in proper locations, on the slide and in front of the trigger guard, so whomever did the job knew what they were doing. Was it real or not? I certainly don't know enough about it to say unequivocally, one way or the other. The buyer, with a lot of experience in these matters, was willing to pay a handsome premium for the pistol, on top of trading me another Inglis Hi Power in excellent condition.

RobSmith
08-16-2010, 06:20 PM
It <could> be legit, but it woul;d be such an oddball that I would consider it a fake unless serious documentation was discovered to validate it.

enfield303t
08-16-2010, 07:29 PM
The Germans called the captured No1 Mk111's the Gewehr 281. I still think it is probably legit as I talked to the present owner and now know the lineage of how the previous owner came to own it. This gun has been sitting in the back of a gun safe for many years and is from a era when the amount of "fakes" were far less compared to today. The price for this gun has a premium but NOTHING compared to a fake SS marked Mauser or something with a very high value. The Germans used and restamped everything they got their hands on like anyone would.
They used all the artillery pieces they captured 'til they ran out of ammunition. I would be VERY CAUTIOUS to say something NEVER HAPPENED during war. If there can be Israeli 98K's then anything is possible....it is my opinion that if the Jews can use a Nazi rifle to fight for an independent nation then ANYTHING is possible. Superbee I think you have a very interesting piece, good on you!

PS. In regard to using the word NEVER, a couple of months ago my son was reading a post on a site that said a certain item was never made and it was all BS. Well I told him that he could correct that posting if he wanted as this WWII souvenir does exist as I saw one. The item was so horrific I would not mention it on any post, I still feel ill every time I think about it.

bearhunter
08-17-2010, 01:30 AM
Superbee, I would be inclined to go with my gut instincts on that rifle. Personally I feel that it's the real thing. Germans loved to stamp everything with swastikas and waffenampts from 1936 to 1945. They stamped just about everything they managed to get to a rear facility.

Go with it and give it a good home. The previous owner knows his stuff, better than just about anyone I know. He is reliable, honest and credible. Always has been, since I first met him 20+ years ago. I doubt that anything has changed. If anyone has had the opportunity to ferret out rarities, he would be the one. After all, he's had access to several thousands of them. Many of which he inspected personally. We should all be so lucky.

RJW NZ
08-17-2010, 02:43 AM
If we're talking about post war and say, 20 years after that to 1965, wouldn't the popular interest in faking german stamps on an enfield have been so low as to make a fake an unreasonable thought? I can think of loads of ww2 stuff that was for the want of a better phrase, ' tainted with the bad memories of the war' that no wanted much to do with it, that is, until a generation comes along that wasn't in the war and gets a romanticized view of it all and and gets fascinated with the hardware. Or am not understanding collecting sentiments even at the time?

I vote - most likely real.

Son
08-17-2010, 09:28 AM
The other board is Gunboards and I went and asked the guys from the 98k Forum over there to come to the Lee Enfield Forum and comment.
The fake Waffenamt-ish eagle, aka "Fatboy", that is marked on this rifle has been intermittently available as a set of "antiqued" stamps on e-bay for a couple of years---and has been showing up on cooked German rifles during the same period.
In fact, the whole Third Reich artifact thing is so full of fakery, the experienced collectors there are out of credulity and very, very good at spotting them.
So I got a couple of the best to come and explain things---which they did in no uncertain terms.
Strange markings stamped on SMLE (pics added) (http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?183940-Strange-markings-stamped-on-SMLE-(pics-added))

Go and see.
-----krinko

PS. Badger, there are lots of people who will pay a premium to get a German capture marked rifle. I had a legitimate 1939 MAS 36 with the proper Waffenamt, in the proper place---bought for $80 and sold for $400.



I'd more call it gathering a lynch mob- Seeing as you are quoting the other forum, so will I... Straight from the K98 forum, "GO SEE"

Will someone please come stomp on this? (http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?183960-Will-someone-please-come-stomp-on-this)


" Will someone please come stomp on this?

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthre...43#post1433043

1.Harbor Freight stamp slinger ruins a perfectly good rifle?

---or---

2.Retarded German marks Aussie SMLE after too much BBK?

I'm going with 1.

Hambone, where are you?
-----krinko "

And then further down...

"The guy who is presenting it is convinced it is---he bought a story, of course. There are other Enfield collectors who know nothing of German markings and can benefit from a good beat down here. I would hate to see a rash of Enfield rifles mutilated because of general ignorance and credulity.
Thanks to all who have put the boot in so far.
-----krinko "

You didn't ask them to comment- you gathered a mob and went in with the boot!!!!!

"There are other Enfield collectors who know nothing of German markings and can benefit from a good beat down here."

"Thanks to all who have put the boot in so far."

Pretty poor form krinko. Regardless of the original posters situation, he was asking for help.
I'm disappointed by your attitude.

enfield303t
08-17-2010, 10:27 AM
The "chance" that this gun was faked with stamps available on e-bay for a couple of years are "slim" and "fat". I talked to superbee about this Enfield and it was in the private collection of a honest/knowledgeable collector since 1991. I still would bet "dollars to donuts" that it is legit and would love to own it.

TwoHawks
08-17-2010, 10:44 AM
Hello Peter,

Unless I am severely mistaken, the BREN LMG is a British version of a Czech LMG that was issued to German units during WWII.

Badger
08-17-2010, 12:13 PM
Hi folks… :)

The beauty of the Internet is the ability to interact with a whole wide range of collectors of differing genres of old milsurps and their specific experience. Having said that, while researching and gathering information, controversial items often create threads with a wide range of differing intellectual opinions.

On our forums, we encourage everyone everyone to express their own thoughts and opinions, however, we request that courtesy and politeness in doing so should be paramount in all poster's minds when doing so.

Please behave and interact with each other as if we were all sitting around a live collector's meeting in a real life face-to-face situation and therefore, governing your emotions and behavior accordingly.

In simple terms, please do not make it personal and force us to close the thread and shut down an otherwise very interesting discussion, which could provide benefit to all of the other members participating. ;)

Thanks to everyone for maintaining civility and politeness in all discussions on our site. :cheers:

Regards,
Doug (Badger)

bearhunter
08-17-2010, 12:25 PM
Badger, I hope you will let me paste this just one time.





Fremden Gerät: Captured Small Arms



During the war, the German army captured huge amounts of weapons from their enemies. Most types were tested by the "Heereswaffenamt". After testing, each type was given a number, followed by the first letter of the country of origin.



This list, compiled by Erik Ettrup, shows the status of most captured weapons up to 1943 (Note that not all weapons entered service in the Wehrmacht).



Belgium

Gewehr 220(b) Ex "Fusil Mauser FN Modele 1924" - Calibre 7mm

Gewehr 261(b) Ex "Fusil 1889" - Calibre 7,65mm

Gewehr 262(b) Ex "Fusil 35" - Calibre 7,65mm

Gewehr 263(b) Ex "Fusil 36"- Calibre 7,65mm

Zielfernrohrgewehr 264(b) Ex "Fusil 35" (Sniper version) - Calibre 7,65mm

Gewehr 284(b) Ex " ? " (This weapon was made only for export. It was never used in the Belgian army) - Calibre 7,9mm

Karabiner 420(b) Ex "Carabine Mauser FN Modele 1924" (This weapon was made only for export. It was never used in the Belgian army) - Calibre 7mm

Karabiner 451(b) Ex "Carabine 1889" - Calibre 7,65mm

Karabiner 452(b) Ex "Carabine Mauser 98" - Calibre 7,65mm

Karabiner 453(b) Ex "Carabine 1916" - Calibre 7,65mm

Pistole 620(b) Ex "Pistolet 1900" - Calibre 7,65mm

Pistole 621(b) Ex "Pistolet 1910" - Calibre 7,65mm

Pistole 622(b) Ex "Pistolet Colt" - Calibre 7,65mm

Pistole 626(b) Ex "Pistolet Browning" - Calibre 7,65mm

Pistole 640(b) Ex "Pistolet Browning G.P" - Calibre 9mm

Pistole 641(b) Ex "Pistolet Browning" (Police model) - Calibre 9mm

Maschinenpistole 740(b) Ex "Mitralette 34 Schmeisser-Byard" - Calibre 9mm



Denmark

Gewehr 311(d) Ex "Gevær M1889" - Calibre 8mm

Scharfschütsen-Gewehr 312(d) Ex "Finskydningsgevær M28" - Calibre 8mm

Karabiner 506(d) Ex "Karabin M89" - Calibre 8mm

Pistole 626 (d) Ex "Browning" - Calibre 7,65mm

Pistole 644(d) Ex "Bergmann M1910/21" - Calibre 9mm

Maschinenpistole 741(d) Ex "Bergmann 34-1" - Calibre 9mm



France

Gewehr 241(f) Ex "Fusil 07/15 M 34" - Calibre 7,5mm

Gewehr 242(f) Ex "Fusil 1936" - Calibre 7,5mm

Gewehr 301(f) Ex "Fusil 86/93" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 302(f) Ex "Fusil 07/15" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 303(f) Ex "Fusil 1886 R35" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 304(f) Ex "Fusil 1916" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 305(f) Ex "Fusil Mle 1907" - Calibre 8mm

Selbstlade-Gewehr 310(f) Ex "Fusil Automatique 1918" (Semi-automatic) - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 361(f) Ex "Fusil Gras 1874" - Calibre 11mm

Karabiner 551(f) Ex "Mousqueton 1890" - Calibre 8mm

Karabiner 552(f) Ex "Mousqueton 1892" - Calibre 8mm

Karabiner 553(f) Ex "Mousqueton 1916" - Calibre 8mm

Karabiner 561(f) Ex "Mousqueton Gras 1874" - Calibre 11mm

Pistole 623(f) Ex "Pistolet automatique type Star" - Calibre 7,65mm

Pistole 624(f) Ex "Pistolet automatique type Ruby" - Calibre 7,65mm

Pistole 625(f) Ex "Pistolet automatique 1935A" - Calibre 7,65mm

Revolver 634(f) Ex "Revolver Eisbar" - Calibre 8mm

Revolver 635(f) Ex "Revolver" - Calibre 8mm

Revolver 636(f) Ex "Revolver" - Calibre 8mm

Revolver 637(f) Ex "Revolver 1892" - Calibre 8mm

Pistole 642(f) Ex "Pistolet automatique type Astra Mod 1924" - Calibre 9mm

Pistole 647(f) Ex "Pistolet automatique type Colt" - Calibre 38

Revolver 654(f) Ex "Revolver 1873 et 1874" - Calibre 11mm

Maschinenpistole 721(f) Ex "Pistolet mitralleur type E.T.V.s" - Calibre 7,65mm

Maschinenpistole 722(f) Ex "Pistolet mitralleur type SE-MAS 1935F" - Calibre 7,65mm

Maschinenpistole 740(f) Ex "Pistolet mitralleur type Vollmer-Erma" - Calibre 9mm

Maschinenpistole 761(f) Ex "Pistolet mitralleur type Thompson 21" - Calibre 45



Greece

Gewehr 215(g) Ex "Mannlicher-Schönauer 03.14" - Calibre 6,5mm

Gewehr 285(g) Ex " Mauser M1930" - Calibre 7,92mm

Gewehr 301(g) Ex "Lebel Mle 1886/93" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 302(g) Ex "Lebel Mle 1907/15" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 305(g) Ex "Lebel Mle 1907" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 306(g) Ex "Mannlicher 95" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 306(g) Ex "Gras 74" - Calibre 11mm

Karabiner 417(g) Ex "Mannlicher-Schönauer M1903" - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 417/2(g) Ex "Mannlicher-Schönauer M1903/14" (for use with bayonet) - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 494(g) Ex "Mannlicher Mod 95/24" - Calibre 7,92mm

Karabiner 502(g) Ex "Lebel 92" - Calibre 8mm

Karabiner 505(g) Ex "Mannlicher M95" - Calibre 8mm

Karabiner 561(g) Ex "Gras Mle 1874" - Calibre 11mm

Revolver 612(g) Ex "Nagant 95" - Calibre 7,62mm

Revolver 613(g) Ex "Nagant 1912" - Calibre 7,62mm

Revolver 648(g) Ex "Colt" - Calibre 38

Revolver 649(g) Ex "Smith & Wesson" - Calibre 38



Holland

Kleinkalibergewehr 201(h) Ex "Geweer tot kamerschietoefeningen" (small calibre rifle) - Calibre 5,5mm

Gewehr 211(h) Ex " Geweer M95" - Calibre 6,5mm

Gewehr 212(h) Ex "Geweer M95" (With "winchester type loading") - Calibre 6,5mm

Kleinkaliberkarabiner 401(h) Ex "Karabijn tot kamerschietoefeningen" (Small calibre carabine) - Calibre 5,5mm

Karabiner 411(h) Ex "Karabijn No1" - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 412(h) Ex "Karabijn No1 O.M" - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 413(h) Ex "Karabijn No3 en 3 O.M" - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 414(h) Ex "Karabijn 1 en 1 O.M" - Calibre 6,5mm

Pistole 626(h) Ex "Pistool M25 No1" - Calibre 7,65mm

pistole 641(h) Ex "Pistoole M25 No2" - Calibre 9mm

Revolver 643(h) Ex "Revolver M1912" - Calibre 9,1mm

Panzerabwehrbüsche 785(h) Ex "Geweer tp-S 18-1100" (Anti tank rifle) - Calibre 20mm



Italy

Gewehr 209(i) Ex "Fucile mod 38" - Calibre 6,5mm

Gewehr 210(i) Ex "Fucile Mod 41" - Calibre 6,5mm

Gewehr 214(i) Ex "Fucile Mod 91" - Calibre 6,5mm

Gewehr 231(i) Ex "Fucile Mod 38 7,35cal" - Calibre 7,35mm

Gewehr 306(i) Ex " Fucile Mannlicher 95" - Calibre 8mm

Ausbildungs-karabiner 407(i) Ex "Moschetto-Balilla" (training carabine) - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 408(i) Ex "Moschetto Mod 38 Cal 6,5" - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 409(i) Ex "Moschetto Mod 91" (With foldable bayonet) - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 410(i) Ex "Moschetto Mod 91 TS" (Without foldable bayonet) - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 416(i) Ex "Moschetto Mod 91/24" - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 430(i) Ex "Moschetto Mod 38 Cal 7,35" - Calibre 7,35mm

Karabiner 505(i) Ex "Moschetto Mannlicher 95" - Calibre 8mm

Pistole 670(i) Ex "Pistola Mod 1910" - Calibre 9mm

Pistole 671(i) Ex "Pistola Mod 34" - Calibre 9mm

Revolver 680(i) Ex "M89" - Calibre 10,35mm

Maschinenpistole 739(i) Ex "Moschetto automatico Beretta 38A" - Calibre 9mm

Panzerabwehrbüsche 770(i) Ex "Fucile anitearro 7,9mm" (Anti-tank rifle) (Originally Polish. Recaptured from Italy) - Calibre 7,92mm

Panzerabwehrbüsche 785(i) Ex "Fucile anitearro 20mm S" (Anti-tank rifle) (Ex German Rheinmetall) - Calibre 20mm



Norway

Gewehr 211(n) Ex " Krag-Jørgensen M/1891" - Calibre 6,5mm

Zielfernrohr-gewehr 212(n) Ex " Krag-Jørgensen M/1891 med mål teleskop" (Sniper version) - Calibre 6,5mm

Gewehr 213(n) Ex "Krag-Jørgensen M/1930" - Calibre 6,5mm

Gewehr 351(n) Ex "Jarrmann M/1887" - Calibre 10,15mm

Karabiner 411(n) Ex "Krag-Jørgensen Kavalerikarabin M/1881" - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 412(n) Ex "Krag-Jørgensen Kavalerikarabin M/1895" - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 413(n) Ex "Krag-Jørgensen Ingeniørkarabin M/1904" - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 414(n) Ex "Krag-Jørgensen Artillerikarabin M/1907" - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 415(n) Ex "Krag-Jørgensen Karabin M/1912" - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 504(n) Ex "Lund Karabin" - Calibre 8mm

Revolver 610(n) Ex "Nagant M/93" - Calibre 7,5mm

Pistole 657(n) Ex "Automatisk pistol M/1914" - Calibre 45



Poland

Gewehr 298(p) Ex "Poln M29" - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 299(p) Ex "Poln 98" - Calibre 7,9mm

Karabiner 493(p) Ex "Karabinek 1898" - Calibre 7,9mm

Karabiner 497(p) Ex "Karabinek 91/98/25" (Mossin-Nagant91) - Calibre 7,9mm

Revolver 612(p) Ex "Rewolwer Nagan" - Calibre 7,62mm

Pistole 645(p) Ex "Pistolet Vis Vz-35" - Calibre 9mm

Panzerabwehrbüsche 770(p) Ex "Karabin 35" (Anti-tank rifle) - Calibre 7,8mm



Soviet Union

Kleinkalibergewehr 205(r) Ex "TOS No8" (Small calibre rifle) - Calibre 5,6mm

Kleinkalibergewehr 206(r) Ex "TOS No9" (Small calibre rifle) - Calibre 5,6mm

Gewehr 252(r) Ex "Wintowka obr 1891" - Calibre 7,62mm

Gewehr 253(r) Ex "Dragoner 91" - Calibre 7,62mm

Gewehr 254(r) Ex "Wintowka obr 1891/1930" - Calibre 7,62mm

Gewehr 255(r) Ex" Wintowka obr 1895" (Winchester rifle) - Calibre 7,62mm

Zielfernrohr-Gewehr 256(r) Ex "91/30" (Sniper version of 254(r) - Calibre 7,62mm

Selbstladegewehr 257(r) Ex "36" (Semi-automatic rifle) - Calibre 7,62mm

Selbstladegewehr 258(r) Ex "38" (Semi-automatic rifle) - Calibre 7,62mm

Selbstladegewehr 259(r) Ex "40" (Semi-automatic rifle) - Calibre 7,62mm

Selbstladegewehr 259/2(r) Ex "40" (Semi-automatic rifle, short version) - Calibre 7,62mm

Selbstlade-Zielfernrohrgewehr 260(r) Ex "40Zf" (Semi-automatic sniper rifle) - Calibre 7,62mm

Gewehr 280(r) Ex "Ross M10" - Calibre 7,7mm

Gewehr 282(r) Ex "Ross-Enfield 14" - Calibre 7,7mm

Gewehr 291(r) Ex "24L" - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 291(r) Ex "24L" - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 298(r) Ex M29(p) (Ex captured Polish weapon) - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 299(r) Ex 98(p) (German K98 captured by Russia in Poland) - Calibre 7,92mm

Karabiner 453(r) Ex "Karabin obr 1910" - Calibre 7,62mm

Karabiner 454(r) Ex "Karabin obr 1924/1927" - Calibre 7,62mm

Karabiner 493(r) Ex "Karabin Obr 1898(p)" (Ex captured Polish rifle) - Calibre 7,9mm

Revolver 612(r) Ex "Revoljver obr Nagant 1895" - Calibre 7,62mm

Pistole 615(r) Ex " Tokarev 1930" - Calibre 7,62mm

Maschinenpistole 715(r) Ex "PPD-40" - Calibre 7,62mm

Maschinenpistole 716(r) Ex "PPD-34/38" - Calibre 7,62mm

Maschinenpistole 717(r) Ex "PPSh-41" - Calibre 7,62mm

Maschinenpistole 718(r) Ex "M42" - Calibre 7,62mm

Maschinenpistole 760(r) Ex "Thompson 28" - Calibre 45

Maschinenpistole 760/2(r) Ex "Thompson 28" (Without forn hand-grip) - Calibre 45

Maschinenpistole 761(r) Ex "Thompson 21" - Calibre 45

Maschinenpistole 762(r) Ex "Reising" - Calibre 45

Panzerabwehrbüsche 755(r)(Einzellader) Ex "?" (Anti-tank rifle) - Calibre 12,7mm

Panzerabwehrbüsche 776(r)(Mehrlader) Ex "?" (Anti-tank rifle) - Calibre 12,7mm

Panzerabwehrbüsche 783(r) Ex "PTRD Degtjarew M41" (Anti-tank rifle) - Calibre 14,5mm

Selbstlade-Panzerabwehrbüsche 784(r) Ex "PTRS Simonow M41" (Semi-automatic Anti-tank rifle) - Calibre 14,5mm



United Kingdom

Gewehr 248(e) Ex "Rifle Winchester 30/30" - Calibre .300

Gewehr 249(e) Ex "Rifle Springfield" - Calibre .300

Gewehr 250(e) Ex "Enfield Mod.1917" - Calibre .300

Gewehr 280(e) Ex "Ross .303" - Calibre .303

Gewehr 281(e) Ex "No1 MK III" - Calibre .303

Gewehr 281/2 mit Gewehrgranatgerät(e) Ex "No1 MK III" (With rifle-grenade launcher)

Gewehr 282(e) Ex "No3 MK I" - Calibre .303

Gewehr 282/3(e) Ex "No3 MK I F" (W/diopter) - Calibre .303

Gewehr 283(e) Ex "No4 MK I" - Calibre .303

Zielfernrohr-Gewehr 283/2(e) "Ex No4 MK I" (Sniper version) - Calibre .303

Revolver 646(e) Ex "No2 MK I Webley" - Calibre 38

Revolver 655(e) Ex "No1 MK VI Webley" - Calibre .455

Maschinenpistole 748(e) Ex "Sten MK I" - Calibre 9mm

Maschinenpistole 749(e) Ex "Sten MK II" - Calibre 9mm

Maschinenpistole 750(e) Ex "Sten MK III" - Calibre 9mm

Maschinenpistole 751(e) Ex "Sten" (W/ silencer) - Calibre 9mm

Maschinenpistole 752(e) Ex "Owen" (Australian?) - Calibre 9mm

Maschinenpistole 760(e) Ex "Thompson 28" - Calibre 45

Maschinenpistole 760/2(e) Ex "Thompson 28" (Without front hand-grip) - Calibre 45

Maschinenpistole 761(e) Ex "Thompson 21" - Calibre 45

Panzerabwehrbüchse 782(e) Ex "R.B MK I" (Anti-tank rifle) - Calibre 13,9mm

Panzerabwehrwaffe 789(e) Ex "Projector Infantry Anti-tank MK I"



USA

Gewehr 249(a) Ex "Springfield Cal.30 Mod 1903" - Calibre 30

Gewehr 250(a) Ex " Ross Cal.30 Mod 1917" - Calibre 30

Selbstladegewehr 251(a) Ex "M1 Garand" (Semi-automatic rifle) - Calibre 30

Selbstladegewehr 455(a) Ex " U.S Carabin M1" - Calibre 30

Pistole 660(a) Ex " Colt Mod 1911" - Calibre 45

Revolver 661(a) Ex " Colt Mod 1917" - Calibre 45

Revolver 662(a) Ex "Smith & Wesson Mod 1917" - Calibre 45

Maschinenpistole 760(a) Ex "Thompson 28" - Calibre 45

Maschinenpistole 760/2(a) Ex "Thompson 28" (Without front hand-grip) - Calibre 45

Maschinenpistole 761(a) Ex "Thompson 21" - Calibre 45

Maschinenpistole 762(a) Ex "Riesing" - Calibre 45



Yugoslavia

Gewehr 214(j) Ex "Puska M91i" - Calibre 6,5mm

Gewehr 221(j) Ex "Puska M10c" - Calibre 7mm

Gewehr 222(j) Ex "Puska M99" - Calibre 7mm

Gewehr 223(j) Ex "Puska M80/7c" - Calibre 7mm

Gewehr 252(j) Ex "Puska M91r" - Calibre 7,62mm

Gewehr 288(j) Ex "Sokol-Puska 7,9mm" - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 289(j) Ex "Komitern-Puska 7,9mm" - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 290(j) Ex "Puska Brünn Vz24" - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 291(j) Ex "Puska M24"(see note below) - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 291/2(j) Ex Puska M24B"(see note below) - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 291/3(j) Ex "Puska M10" (291,291/2 and 291/3 were the same wapon, but different countries of origin made it impossible to switch the parts from each manufacturer) - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 291/4(j) Ex "Puska M99C07" - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 292 (j) Ex "Puska M88" - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 293(j) Ex "Puska M98" (Same as Geman K98 Mauser) - Calibre 7,92mm

Gewehr 294(j) Ex "Puska M95M 7,9mm" - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 295(j) Ex "Puska M9T" - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 296(j) Ex "Puska M99T" - Calibre 7,9mm

Gewehr 297(j) Ex "Puska M96T" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 298(j) Ex "Puska M29" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 301(j) Ex "Puska M86" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 302(j) Ex "Puska M7.15F" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 304(j) Ex "Puska M16F" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 306(j) Ex "Puska M95M 8mm" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 307(j) Ex "Puska M93 MR" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 308(j) Ex "Puska M74F" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 309(j) Ex "Puska M91R" - Calibre 8mm

Gewehr 352(j) Ex "Puska M78/80" - Calibre 10,15mm

Gewehr 361(j) Ex "Puska 11mm M71" - Calibre 11mm

Karabiner 416(j) Ex "Karabini M95i" - Calibre 6,5mm

Karabiner 421(j) Ex "Karabini M8C" - Calibre 7mm

Karabiner 491(j) Ex "Karabini M24" (See note below) - Calibre 7,9mm

Karabiner 491/2(j) Ex "Karabini M24B" (See note below) - Calibre 7,9mm

Karabiner 491/3(j) Ex "Karabini M10C" (See note below) - Calibre 7,9mm

Karabiner 491/4(j) Ex "Karabini M99C" (291,291/2 and 291/3 were the same wapon, but different countries of origin made it impossible to switch the parts from each manufacturer) - Calibre 7,9mm

Karabiner 492(j) Ex "Karabini M98" - Calibre 7,92mm

Karabiner 502(j) Ex "Karabini M7/15F" - Calibre 8mm

Karabiner 503(j) Ex "Karabini M16F" - calibre 8mm

Karabiner 505(j) Ex "Karabini Mannlicher M95M" - Calibre 8mm

Karabiner 561(j) Ex "Karabini Gras M74" - Calibre 11mm

Pistole 641(j) Ex "M10/22 Browning" - Calibre 9mm

Maschinenpistole 760(j) Ex "Thompson 28" - Calibre 45

villiers
08-17-2010, 02:26 PM
A few months back, I was in Berlin´s largest gun shop (Frankonia) and a friendly shop assistant told me that he´d been on a tour of the site of the last German fortification at Küstrin on the Oder (Odra) River. In a deserted bunker he had found a pile of old .303 ammunition. He gave me a few rounds and here´s one I took apart. This was where the last ditch defence (that´s how we spell it) of Berlin took place, so it was to be expected that some "odds and sods" of the German equivalent of Fred Karno´s Army were armed with whatever leftovers were on hand. The were marked according to the code in the above mentioned list of "Fremdes Gerät". Enfields were captured in relevant numbers at Dunkirk, Tobruk, elsewhere in North Africa and in Norway. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why a Wehrmacht marked Enfield should not turn up now and again.

Alan de Enfield
08-17-2010, 03:09 PM
So - if the SMLE is not marked 281(e) its definately a fake, but if it is marked 281(e) then it could be the 'real deal'.

Kev G
08-17-2010, 03:45 PM
I have not seen the German designation inscribed on any Czech lmg's entered into German service , I think the designation was for reference only ?
The Germans were very thorough in catologing foriegn weapons and issuing manuals in German.
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/front1-1.jpg

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/gbren-1.jpg

ATB Kevin

bearhunter
08-17-2010, 04:04 PM
The only German marks I have ever seen on capture/reissued weapons, were waffenampts and some times a date. Polish Radoms are a good example, as were the M38 Nagants that International out of Montreal and now Century out of St Albans sold off by the thousand. All of the original stamps were intact, with waffenampts added. These rifles were issued to captured Russian prisoners, that agreed to fight for the axis. They didn't have much choice. They could be starved to death or they could be fed, and shot by their own kind. I guess it was just a choice of execution method.
I've owned several rifles with both markings. Some were marked in several places on the rifles, including the stock. Most of these rifles, were bought in the mid seventies to early eighties. Some had been FTR'd and some looked like they just came off the battlefield.

sprog
08-17-2010, 04:27 PM
I am not seeing in this discussion an important point raised in the gunboards forum's discussion. That is; "The German Eagle is facing the WRONG way." If this is so surely this would put it in the realms of fakery? Unless it was stamped by a left-handed armourer.:lol:

JBS
08-17-2010, 04:39 PM
I have no dog in this fight. I do wonder looking at the Large stamp that is backwards, is this stamp actually an embossing punch used to stamp sheet metal items from the back side and produce the correct eagle on the viewing side. Can’t imagine somebody going to all the trouble to fake a stamp to have it be backwards.

Peter Laidler
08-17-2010, 04:48 PM
Let me ask anyone else out there who has ever seen a rifle....., any rifle....., that's been through the UK Military FTR programme that has come out still bearing the old unit markings etc etc stamped into the butt. It just wouldn't happen......... Let alone bear German markings......., I mean...., well, they really need to get out a bit more.......... When I say UK Military, I also refer to Lithgow too, who worked pretty well closely to the UK system and even into the L1A1 rifle days, there was always plenty of interchange of ideas, methods and doctrine.

I have recently seen another rifle, a No4T, owned by someone who's had it for 30 years and all that old pure horse manure, stuck at the back of his cupboard and has now decided to sell it. It's a Fazakerley No4 Mk2. But you can't tell him it's a fake. I've even tried telling him in easily understood Army terms of few words. The older they are and the longer they've had it and the more they believe, the more entrenched they become.........

As with the Bren we know about, it wasn't waffen-wotsit (?) stamp as such, just hand stamped locally with the unit identity. Much as we'd paint a butt number on our SA80's now

krinko
08-17-2010, 06:34 PM
"Let me ask anyone else out there who has ever seen a rifle....., any rifle....., that's been through the UK Military FTR programme that has come out still bearing the old unit markings etc etc stamped into the butt. It just wouldn't happen......... Let alone bear German markings......., I mean...., well, they really need to get out a bit more.......... "

It...
It....
It could...
It could have been issued to an Australian Embassy Guard in Uruguay after 1952, been stolen by Eichmann and marked by Mengele with a homemade stamp---which is why it looks odd.
Yeah, that could've happened, like that movie 'Boys From Brazil', with Gregory Peccary, or whatever.
YOU PEOPLE ARE SO CYNICAL!!!
It's real, I just know it is.
-----krinko

Badger
08-17-2010, 08:22 PM
I am not seeing in this discussion an important point raised in the gunboards forum's discussion. That is; "The German Eagle is facing the WRONG way." If this is so surely this would put it in the realms of fakery? Unless it was stamped by a left-handed armourer.:lol:

That's an excellent point that needs to be pointed out when discussing this piece with any objectivity ... :thup:


I have no dog in this fight. I do wonder looking at the Large stamp that is backwards, is this stamp actually an embossing punch used to stamp sheet metal items from the back side and produce the correct eagle on the viewing side. Can’t imagine somebody going to all the trouble to fake a stamp to have it be backwards.

Interesting .. I would have never thought of that and if this is a fake, then the guy who did it was dumber than a box of rocks ... :lol:

Regards,
Badger

SpikeDD
08-17-2010, 08:39 PM
This is a bit confusing to me. I have read all of the presented information and the responses in regard to this rifle and it seems pretty clear to me as to what it most probably is. A very important function of these boards was executed here with this particular rifle, albeit, not probably in the most "politically correct" way but none the less, still presented. A question was asked about a German mark on a British rifle on a Enfield board. Members of the K98 boards were asked to come and have a look-see and opinions were given, albeit, not in the most "politically correct" fashion but, given, none the less. The manor in which attention had been brought to this rifle and the manor in which the responses were given doesn't change the fact of the matter. To discard the information given by the K98 folks would be the same as the opinions of our most respected Enfield experts being discarded. I thought this was how it is supposed to work.

Bearhunter posted a list of weapons the Germans were known to have captured/used but I can't see the relevancy in this information. I think it's great information and very interesting but how does the listing prove this particular rifle is the real thing? I've read these postings twice over and can't see anything posted doubting the fact that Germany captured and used weapons.

It appears to me a question was asked but the answer wasn't what was expected. Superbee, I honestly would not like to see you get burned and I think you did exactly what you should have done if you were in doubt. I hope it all works out in the end.

Edited to correct reference to enfield303t... Thank you Sir

Badger
08-17-2010, 08:41 PM
Good debate is about listening to various points of view and responding objectively, staying focused on the issue at hand. :thup:

I believe everyone has heard clearly that experts amongst the K98k community have branded this a complete fake, so that should be clear and really doesn't require much more emotional reinforcement. I also believe highly respected and knowledgeable collectors in the Enfield community have also labeled it as a fake, so that doesn't require additional confirmation either. :lol:

What I think is important, is for other members of either community who believe there's an element of doubt or room for error in those positions, to get their chance to voice there opinions without being marginalized, or labeled heretics, by being shouted down as somehow unimportant.

I've read some very interesting pros and cons in this thread, but I've also read a lot of noise that as with most Internet forums, has to be filtered through to listen to the important points and thoughtful content. :cheers:

Regards,
Badger

bigduke6
08-17-2010, 09:13 PM
As Sprog has pointed out the eagle is pointing the wrong way, and so is the swastika, so it is a stamp that JBS describes, The one on the action looks too rounded, Think the butt may of been changed, so this could be the real Mcoy, as for the action .....

Think what Bearhunter has posted needs to archived, very interesting.

One thing we must not forget at the time if it was stamped then (the Butt), was the amount of forced or slave labour used, and for one of these labourers to have a last laugh and use a different stamp who knows.

bearhunter
08-17-2010, 09:21 PM
What I'm really trying to point out here is that Germany marked many other nations firearms, as they either used or captured them. I am not familiar enough with the stamp forms to say that rifle was FTRed in the UK or Australia. It may have been FTRed in Germany or any other European or African country it was left behind in. In 1977, I had the opportunity to see and handle (not shoot) several NoI MkIII rifles and .38 MkI Enfield revolvers. They all bore Austrian markings. Yes, I know they were issued to them by the UK occupation troops and provisional government of the day.
To jump up and down and say this rifle is a fake, baffles me to tell the truth. If the rifle was FTRed out of the UK or any other Commonwealth country, it's quite probable they only replace worn out or broken parts, if they had them. A good example of this and many on this board have them, are the SMLE and No4 rifles from India and Pakistan. Many of them have been FTRed several times and still bear their original furniture. The same goes for Russian, Norwegian and Finnish FTRs of captured German arms. This isn't really that unusual. Peter, you may be right. I wouldn't have happened in the UK or "maybe" any other Commonwealth nation. From what I see in your post, the furniture is scrubbed of all previous to FTR marks. I can dig out some No4 rifles that were FTRed and do bear original furniture and stamps. They may not have been done in the UK though. It isn't uncommon to find repairs on FTRed rifles either. I will also admit it is unusual to find a Lithgow, with german marks that has gone through an FTR. Maybe a tech had a sense of humor after all.

The man who sold the rifle to Superbee is beyond repute. In my opinion anyway. He would be happy to give SB a full refund, again IMHO. He had the rifle in his collection for over 20 years. He is very well respected in Canada as well as the US. I only wish he would chime in here.

enfield303t
08-17-2010, 09:37 PM
SpikeDD, not my rifle if you read the first post it belongs to someone else so no disrespect taken.

enfield303t
08-17-2010, 09:46 PM
I know lots think it is a total fake, maybe it is and I wish the person who stamped it would give a testimonial?? To use the word never still bothers me as I learned long ago it is a very dangerous word as far too often in the past I have used it only to be proven wrong in the end. I do remember a judge telling me that something may happen "rarely" but to say "never" will not be believed. I still think it is a very interesting gun and no one will convince me that it was stamped in the recent past, the person who has owned it since at least 1991 just wouldn't do that. I have a good idea of what was paid for it and say again there sure wasn't much monetary gain for the effort if it was faked for profit.

finloq
08-17-2010, 10:04 PM
I know lots think it is a total fake, maybe it is and I wish the person who stamped it would give a testimonial?? To use the word never still bothers me as I learned long ago it is a very dangerous word as far too often in the past I have used it only to be proven wrong in the end. I do remember a judge telling me that it may happen rarely but to say "never" will not be believed. I still think it is a very intersting gun and no one will convince me that it was stamped in the recent past, the person who has owned it since at least 1991 just wouldn't do that. I have a good idea of what was paid for it and say again there sure wasn't much monetary gain for the effort if it was faked for profit.

$1000 CAN, does not add up to much. Unless you are selling several different rifles with said stamps.

sprog
08-18-2010, 12:15 AM
$1000 CAN, does not add up to much. Unless you are selling several different rifles with said stamps.

In my household $1000 adds up to quite a tidy sum. With #1 MkIIIs going, in Edmonton, in the region of $500-$600 then $400 is a lot to pay for a fake stamp

Jollygreenslugg
08-18-2010, 12:55 AM
To me, it's out of the accepted Australian FTR norm to leave obviously non-standard markings on. Especially when a quick linish would have removed them.

I'd love it to be the real deal; it just doesn't sit right with me.

Mind you, knowing the Aussie sense of humour, I could see a storeman in 1990 palletising the rifles for transport, having fun with a fake stamp or two, thinking "This'll stuff 'em!"

Cheers,
Matt

enfield303t
08-18-2010, 01:20 AM
In my household $1000 adds up to quite a tidy sum. With #1 MkIIIs going, in Edmonton, in the region of $500-$600 then $400 is a lot to pay for a fake stamp

OR maybe $400 is little to pay if it's a real one??

RJW NZ
08-18-2010, 01:53 AM
I was sticking up for it being the real thing, based on probability, however Peter's FTR comments have persuaded me lots that the gun wouldn't get through an FTR with those marks intact, so now I'm more on the fakery. The clincher to me is really this comment; 'As Sprog has pointed out the eagle is pointing the wrong way, and so is the swastika, so it is a stamp that JBS describes, The one on the action looks too rounded, Think the butt may of been changed, so this could be the real Mcoy, as for the action etc etc .....'

As the perpetrator and appreciator of a few good pranks myself, there is one key ingredient to a good leg pull; that what ever the item is in question, it should be so outlandishly wrong that the real humor is all about the egg on the face of 'experts'. In this case, having the swastika and eagle on backwards is a riot, and exactly what a good pranker would do. Its a wonder A H wasn't carved on the stock over 'leningrad' with a line of kill marks to boot, as his personnal sniper rifle he used on weekend 'hunting trips'.

Still, a good story and always worth the money.

Did I ever tell you about the surplus white spitfire out back of Sydney some cocky was using to kull kangaroos that were eating his pot crop? ... lol, I nearly got in some trouble for parts of that one.

Jollygreenslugg
08-18-2010, 03:13 AM
Did I ever tell you about the surplus white spitfire out back of Sydney some cocky was using to kull kangaroos that were eating his pot crop? ... lol, I nearly got in some trouble for that one.

I've heard versions of the white Spitfire story myself, over the years. One variation of the white Spitfire story was that a Department of Aviation Aero Commander was on a flight in south-western New South Wales (out of Sydney for those who aren't familiar with Aussie geography) and a white Spitfire came from nowhere and did a roll around the Aero Commander. Made for a great yarn. Another version had the white Spit letting loose with some cannon fire at the same Aero Commander which got too close to the hooch crops. Mind you, in southern NSW there was a bright red Mustang in the 60s, VH-AUB or A68-107. Owned by Aubrey 'Titus' Oates at Jerilderie, it flew for a while and was purchased in the 70s by Col Pay, and returned to military markings.

I'd love the rifle in question to be fair dinkum. Can't see it happening though.

Cheers,
Matt

Bill G
08-18-2010, 03:42 AM
I"m too lazy to look it up in the Enfield book but, I believe the Turks converted some No.1's to 8mm. and reinforced the receiver during WW1. The Fins captured some Mosins from the Russians, the Nazis captured the rifles from the Fins, and converted them to 8mm. If you see one of the triple life Mosins you'll remember it. So-o-o, why not a Nazi proofed Enfield? Oh yea, the Japanese captured some British and American made rifles early in WW2 and converted them for their use.

villiers
08-18-2010, 03:47 AM
Am NOT a collector and have no interest in the matter other than ensuring that history is not falsified. Have looked at the one picture in which the Waffen Amt stamp is clearly depicted. It is the mirror image of the correct stamp (the eagle faces to the right and the Hakenkreuz is the wrong way round). The stamp was either made from an impression of the original and applied so that a mirror image was achieved. Or a photographic negative could have been used the wrong way around when posting the picture. I would assume that a forger would have taken the trouble to make a correct stamp. I have inadvertently posted mirror image pictures and it happens quite often.

OxfordAndy
08-18-2010, 09:50 AM
Very interesting debate and rifle.

All I would add is that the "German" stamps seem extraordinarily ornate compared to other WaA stamps I've seen on rifles/pistols/bayonets. Most WaA stamps that I've seen look pretty primitive by comparison. It is also noticable how well struck and consistent the stamps are.

There are many who are infinitely more experienced than me but I spent a considerable amount of time not too long ago looking in various places for a genuine period stock for my 98k refurb - NEVER saw one this well/clearly marked or I would have bitten the sellers hand off. - and I looked at nearly 60 odd stocks.

The only stamping I can find that (to me) looks anything like the picture in the OP in on p301 of Law's "98k, BotW" where there is a shot of a reworked 98k action on an SS rifle.

If it is genuine - amazing find!

RobSmith
08-18-2010, 11:56 AM
I think the old adage of "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" should firmly be applied in such case.

sprog
08-18-2010, 01:01 PM
OR maybe $400 is little to pay if it's a real one??

That's an awfully expensive "IF" & on the evidence presented on both forums, I for one will keep my $400 towards a REAL #7 Mk1.

JBS
08-18-2010, 01:36 PM
Ok, good people I think I have finally remembered where I have seen what made the backwards Eagle ( in the wood ) . Sorry it took so long but my one remaining brain cell gets over loaded easy. I think the backwards eagle was produced by using a type of nazi party lapel pin. It looks the right size and type of image. If the label pin was used to make an impressed image it would produce a reverse image. Un fortunately my client that collect this type of German memorabilia is no longer in the area to double check with.

villiers
08-18-2010, 01:45 PM
The stamp on the metal is the correct way around.

Peter Laidler
08-18-2010, 03:19 PM
An interesting article but what's a bit worrying, but easily rectified, is that some forumers clearly have no real idea about what the term FTR really indicates when it's attached to or engraved on your rifle. So after this article reaches a conclusion, I'll do a bit of homework and speak to those who know a lot more than me and do a write up about exactly what the FTR programmes really mean, what they do and what it means to your FTR'd rifle. I can only speak for the big UK Military/Ministry of Supply programmes at Fazakerley and Enfield (but BSA broadly followed suit) and what happened at Lithgow during my time in Australia and the Army there and abroad.

But, be advised that it won't include phrases like '.......well, he probably left it off.....' or '........... maybe the storeman/examiner/out inspctor/ machine shop supervisor etc etc was feeling tired that day'.

SpikeDD
08-18-2010, 06:08 PM
As a collector, I would certainly LOVE for this rifle of Superbee's to be the real thing, but, after reading all of the opinions and speculations, it just doesn't seem probable. Even with keeping in mind that anything IS quite possible in regard to millsurp collecting, there are some things about this particular rifle that just don't logically fit in place.

Lets do a short recap of the information and see where it lands.

The rifle in question was said to posses the markings " FTR MA/52 " This is a unmistakable mark for a rifle having been FTR'd in Australia in 1952. No matter where else in the whole world this rifle has been, we have positive proof it had been in Australia by 1952.

The rifle in question possesses yellow paint on the nose cap. This clearly indicates the rifle having been involved with the cadet forces AFTER the FTR. Mr. Ladler has given his assessment of what a FTR entails ( with more to come ) which indicates the probability of the German markings surviving a FTR to be extremely unlikely.

We have testimony from respected, knowledgeable members of the K98 boards regarding the authenticity of the German markings and the collective results show them to be consistent with known forged markings, in the wrong place and apparently, backwards. As I have stated before, to disregard the statements of the K98 folks would be the same as to disregard any statement our own trusted Enfield experts would have posted if the roles were reversed. As rough as some of the posting may appear, we must try not to read any emotion in them and just read the information given.

We have a lot of speculation. Some are not able to see why such forgery would be undertaken in the first place, others seem to feel the mere fact that Germany did capture, mark and issue allied weapons justifies this rifles authenticity while still others have a personal stake in the the reputation of the seller, which at the very least is extremely noble, but unfortunately, lacks concrete proof.

As a collector, I can assure you that I would, without giving it a second thought, pay quite a premium to possess such a rifle. That is part of what collecting is all about. Unfortunately, there are people out there who are very aware of this fact and will go to some pretty extended efforts to exploit this. The fact that this doesn't make much sense to most people doesn't change this fact, It is a fact and it does happen and I have been victim of this very practice myself. I am sure any collector here has been aware of the German markings nightmare that has been going on for quite a long time. Bottom line, can we assume this rifle is authentic because it appears illogical to undertake such forgery ? or, can we assume this rifle is a fake given the degree of forgery that is known to exist ?

I think I can say that everyone here is aware that Germany did in fact capture, mark and issue weapons to their troops, agreed? That has never been contested in any of the previous postings and bearhunter has posted an excellent listing of information regarding this practice but as valuable a piece of information this may be, does it support the validity of this particular rifle ?

So, this leaves us with three probable time frames the German markings could have been applied. 1, In Germany 2, the time between the rifle being sold out of service to the time the rifle was collected to be exported and 3, somewhere between the time the rifle arrived at the importers and collected by the distributor. I arrived at these conclusions by 1- the obvious, 2- Mr. Ladler, regarding the FTR procedure and 3- the statements provided by enfield303 and bearhunter regarding the character of the seller.

If we remove all of the emotion, hopes and desires of what we all would really like this rifle to be.... the bare facts that remain leave us no choice about the probability of what this rifle is.

I am very sorry Superbee, I just think you should get your money back on this one.

Bindi2
08-18-2010, 08:16 PM
A 15yr old cadet could have done it because he thought he was cool or some other reason

enfield303t
08-19-2010, 01:33 AM
I think most understand what FTR means however the question is was it done perfectly EVERY time? Again the word NEVER can enter into the equation and I think what happened during wartime will be different than what happens in peacetime. Yes the gun was to be restored to perfect military specifications, was it done everytime, I doubt it after all if I ever found a gun like superbee had I would gladly pass it thru just to cause a stir down the road. I have always thought the Aussies had a great sense of humour so maybe this guy did and has been laughing for years. Next is the quality of work, there are different standards as how perfect something must be between the different branches of the military. I go back to a good friend that was in the Air Force and in their hanger was probably the best machinist he had ever seen, this guy did amazing, perfect work. The machinist in question was transfered and the next machinist was from a different branch of the military ( we had amalgamated the branches ) and my friend infered that the new machinist did work that was good enough, whereas aircraft just won't stay in the air with good enough work. (No disrespect meant to anyone). I know the majority of posts say the gun is a fake however I think there is a chance it may be genuine and my reasoning is too many people are using the word or thought...NEVER.. Think about it, hundreds of thousands of weapons were captured and marked by the Germans and not even one Enfield slipped thru??

sprog
08-19-2010, 02:02 AM
I think most understand what FTR means however the question is was it done perfectly EVERY time? Again the word NEVER can enter into the equation and I think what happened during wartime will be different than what happens in peacetime. Yes the gun was to be restored to perfect military specifications, was it done everytime, I doubt it after all if I ever found a gun like superbee had I would gladly pass it thru just to cause a stir down the road. I have always thought the Aussies had a great sense of humour so maybe this guy did and has been laughing for years. Next is the quality of work, there are different standards as how perfect something must be between the different branches of the military. I go back to a good friend that was in the Air Force and in their hanger was probably the best machinist he had ever seen, this guy did amazing, perfect work. The machinist in question was transfered and the next machinist was from a different branch of the military ( we had amalgamated the branches ) and my friend infered that the new machinist did work that was good enough, whereas aircraft just won't stay in the air with good enough work. (No disrespect meant to anyone). I know the majority of posts say the gun is a fake however I think there is a chance it may be genuine and my reasoning is too many people are using the word or thought...NEVER.. Think about it, hundreds of thousands of weapons were captured and marked by the Germans and not even one Enfield slipped thru??

Have I got a bridge to sell you.

Son
08-19-2010, 04:00 AM
I agree with SpikeDD about a lot of what he has said. Emotion is not an asset here, and speculation really isn't either. Although I am as guilty as almost any for speculating, that comes from a bit of knowledge of the system as much as anything I know about the rifles in general. I think a few more details are needed to take us any further...

If Superbee is willing to participate, and there is not to be any negative comments if he isn't... (even answer by PM if you like)
I would like to ask a question or two specifically about the rifle.
Is the FTR marking on the left side of the butt socket?
Is the rifle serial number present on the foreend? Wood type? EFD marked?
Check the date on the barrel to confirm if it is actually the original, or if it was a re-numbered replacement? Can we see pictures of the serial number stamps on barrel and receiver and bolt?
What type of finish is on the rifle's metalwork, and how good is that finish?
Does the finish look damaged where the eagle is stamped on the receiver? (I use a high-res macro shot blown up to get the best view of very fine detail)
Was there any grease under the woodwork?

I think we are generally in agreement that the FTR may hold the key to this. Trying to establish if it is unaltered since FTR is very important to the case, either way.

Claven2
08-19-2010, 08:57 PM
My verdict after years as a rather serious Enfield AND K98k collector: Fake.

The waffenampts are all wrong AND their placement does not follow any of the known Waffenampt inspected capture rifles. Certainly there would NEVER be a receiver ring firing proof.

It's fake. The seller offered a refund. Take advantage of it.

My condolences that it isn't what the OP thought it was.

stencollector
08-19-2010, 09:34 PM
I saw an identical rifle at the Regina Gunshow about 4 years back. It had the yellow markings, the FTR, and the German markings stamped into the wood. The seller had not even noticed the markings, so they were not there for his profit. His price was reasonable. I passed, as it was just too suspicious a chain to have the FTR and the German markings. I posed the question on gunnutz site back then, and the consensus was "fake". Apparently there were a couple of guys in Southern Ontario who liked to spruce up their rifles for resale.

bearhunter
08-20-2010, 12:17 AM
Please don't take this as a bash to anybody on this site. I know the seller is honest. He didn't stamp the rifle. I also understand, from talking to another potential buyer, that he got the full story behind the rifle. It came in with virtually a warehouse full of other rifles, packaged in the usual way, I would suspect on pallets.
Ask yourselves why a man that has access to thousands of rifles, would bother to stamp up a fake?Why, knowing the situation among collectors, would he even try to pass one off as original and ruin an otherwise stellar reputation? He sees and has enough oddities and rarities, that it just isn't worth the bother.
I, personally think the rifle, is a bit pricey but that's just IMHO, as is my opinion of the rifle.

I've been pouring through my books to find that stamp on the stock. I can't find it. I have a nagging memory that it is a border police stamp. I just don't remember where I saw it.

One thing you can rule out, that impression wasn't made with a badge. For one thing, it's seasoned coachwood, which is as tough and maybe tougher than walnut. Badges are made from soft metals, that would collapse, before it came anywhere near making such a sharp, deep impression.

If I had the dollars and the seller were willing to dikker, I would buy that rifle and be happy to have it. :lol:

villiers
08-20-2010, 05:30 AM
I saw an identical rifle at the Regina Gunshow about 4 years back. It had the yellow markings, the FTR, and the German markings stamped into the wood. The seller had not even noticed the markings, so they were not there for his profit. His price was reasonable. I passed, as it was just too suspicious a chain to have the FTR and the German markings. I posed the question on gunnutz site back then, and the consensus was "fake". Apparently there were a couple of guys in Southern Ontario who liked to spruce up their rifles for resale.

This sounds highly likely. OR: the quite often to be found bl**dy mindedness of British/Australian workers during FT. Non collectors often have a surreptitious chuckle over the gullibility of many of the collecting fraternity, their willingness to pay for any dubious legend and the greed involved in faking.

Claven2
08-20-2010, 06:34 AM
Look, the OP can believe whatever he wants, but NEVER EVER did WaA number get applied one at a time under a nazi eagle. in one photo you can clearly see the three were stamped indivicually and you can make out the stamp mark impressions. FAKE. Period. In the end it matters not WHO faked it or when.

Brian Dick
08-20-2010, 11:03 AM
I was going to keep quiet but what the Hell. I have one of these SMLE's that I purchased several years ago at a show. It's a 1918 SSA with a mismatch bolt in good, original condition. I bought the rifle, not the story and paid a bit of a premium at the time but nothing extreme. It's marked totally different with just a tiny droopy wing eagle, (pre 1941), apparently applied in Liege, Belgium on both barrel and receiver ring. It has a small Luftwaffe eagle stamped on the right side of the buttstock with L.Z.A. stamped underneath it. I showed this rifle to Ian Skennerton and he photographed it at the time. It turned up in his Arms and Militaria magazine in an article by Brian Labudda and was shrugged off publically as a blatant fake and he said the stamps could be readily purchased at Sarco. I did further research and found out that it wasn't true. I happen to know Charlie Steen and he's never sold those type stamps. Ian also met the previous owner of the rifle at Tulsa and was told the story and he phoned me back to say he wasn't convinced it's a fake anymore so there you go. I don't think this one is a fake but I really don't know. I have photos somewhere and if I can find them, I'll get Badger to post them for me. Unfortunately, the rifle has been tainted by an article in a magazine with world wide circulation so maybe it's tainted forever because a self proclaimed expurt says so.

villiers
08-20-2010, 12:19 PM
Look, the OP can believe whatever he wants, but NEVER EVER did WaA number get applied one at a time under a nazi eagle. in one photo you can clearly see the three were stamped indivicually and you can make out the stamp mark impressions. FAKE. Period. In the end it matters not WHO faked it or when.

I can show you a number of various WaA stamped articles with stamps made up of a mix of various types. Anyone who believes that Germans always did things according to the rule book is wrong. And they obviously have never experienced the "make-do-and-mend" attitude which increases in proportion to the distance from the nearest depot. The rifle may not be correctly stamped but I would need definite proof one way or the other. If I were to fake a German WWII issue article, I can assure you that "experts" would accept it as genuine.

Claven2
08-20-2010, 03:19 PM
I just don't see how anyone thinks this is a real wafffenampt stamping. It is not. Nobody is ever going to find this marking on any real German made or captured rifle. It's afantasy stamp where the numbers underneath were each added with individual number stamps. WaA stamps had the numbers carved beneath the eagle on the same stamp, they were not done individually like this. You can make out how each of these three digits is stamped separately and they were stamped too deeply so the stamp shank also made an impression.

Believe whatever you will. But this is fake.

http://www.milsurps.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15004&d=1281874241

bearhunter
08-20-2010, 03:43 PM
It could also be possible that it's the 285th rifle to be stamped that way.

Brit plumber
08-20-2010, 04:40 PM
Hi Guys,

I can't comment on the markings, but my own Enfield made Lithgow FTR'd MkIII has perfectly, unmarked as new park but the wood is definatly used. The butt is a SLAZ item from 1942 and the rest of the wood looks much older and darker with the Aussie brass thread wire reinforcing the week points, it has many dings and a crack so it would appear Lithgow recycled some woodwork at least.

I've also attached a photo of a single German stamp found on my Inglis Bren Mk1 DD Intermediate (MG138 (E)). The rest of the markings have been linished off, including the date and the serial number, the only marking left is Bren Mk1m.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/NaziEagleonBren-1.jpg

Frederick303
08-20-2010, 05:54 PM
A few more comments no one seems to have noticed, as I have an original MA/52 rebuild to compare this rifle to. The rifle above is a 1917 Enfield that was sent to Australia sometime after WWI. That much is sure by the D broad-arrow D mark on the action body. Now the wood appears to be coach wood and has been confirmed as such by someone on this thread, which means that it was replaced sometime between the late 1930s (1938 sticks in my head as around the time they started using coach wood) to pre1943. The original butt stock was almost certainly walnut. Now I do not have a 1941, 42, 43 rifle like this, but I do have a 1917 Enfield refurbished in 44 with a MA44 mark and a 1945 refurbished 1908 Enfield that has a MA/45 mark. Both are on the wood, right hand side. I see no such mark on this coach wood stock.
It is possible it was returned again to England in 1940, as were 30,000 other Australian rifles for use by England, but then the right hand butt stock markings should be more prevalent, at least that is my recollection of rifles I have seen from that period. None of the 1940/41 refurbished rifles I have seen had new butt stocks, they all had repaired ones and all had reissue marks. This stock lacks any such mark or even the faint remains of such marks. That does not seem right

Now for this to be real it had to be lost the Germans between 1940 and 1943, marked by them, recaptured and then somehow get back to Australia. Considering that the Australians were not heavily involved in the ETO at the end of the war when one might expect such a rifle to fall into their hands, it makes one wonder as to the timing. There were Australians/New Zealanders in Italy, but I do not seem to recall the Germans using any captured British arms there.

If the Buttstock had been replaced between the late 1930s and 1943, we should see some right hand side marking, at least a MA/xx date. None appears. Most rifles I have seen from this period are very dark from the creosote coating. The color of the wood seems closer to rifles reworked after 1947, with a lighter wood stock and no Creosote coating

Now to a comparison with a FTR MA/52 rifle in my collection. The one I have in a Lithgow 1916 rebuilt in 52. In researching it, I find that that the only contact from 1952 was for the RAAF completed 10/52. The quantity was 10,000 rifles. That info comes from a table that was in the old Enfield collector’s digest of what came through the proof house at Lithgow from 1950 to 1958. That rifle, which I do not know to be original and was somewhat drill use worn, had a coach wood butt stock that was free of any markings at all. It appeared to be a heavily sanded older stock, as it lacked the SLAZ marking under the grip as I have seen on new butts from that era. It lacked any old marking at all, not even faint older markings as I have seen on the right side on other reworked rifles, though some faint old markings were on the underside of the grip. The finish matches the rest of the wood, so while I have not idea if it is original, it would appear to be a similar trifle to that shown above. In short, based on the examples I have, I would expect the butt stock to be free of any markings at all when it came out of FTR in 1952.

Now look at this rifles marking in the pictures posted. Note the stock show shows signs of use and sanding, looking at the first picture. The rifle I have and this rifle both have stocks that had a coating of linseed oil and all marking were filled in with this oil (those marking under the grip). In fact the stocks were soaked in this oil as part of the FTR, look at the dark patches where the dents are. Note there is no oil build up in the NAZI marking.

No look at the metal on the action body. Note the action proofs have been rounded due to pre parkarization prep, but the NAZI marking is still very crisp. Hmmmm…..

So we are supposed to assume that a rifle that went through FTR, then saw service in the cadets has a perfect 1943 NAZI applied marking on the Butt stock? Hmmmm….

Not being an expert on Nazi markings, all I can say is the NAZI butt stock stamp looks too fresh for a marking that was there before FTR, and if the markings were removed the rifle would look right for a 1952 FTR.

On that basis I would call it a fake.

Peter Laidler
08-20-2010, 06:22 PM
Nobody has quite yet explained how the eagle is looking the wrong way and the swastika is also cack-handed. Don't tell me......... the German inspector was having a bad hair day and thought he'd do it as a joke. Come on........................!

Because that's what some are virtually saying about it having passed all the inspectors during its progress through the FTR programme............

sprog
08-20-2010, 07:07 PM
Nobody has quite yet explained how the eagle is looking the wrong way and the swastika is also cack-handed. Don't tell me......... the German inspector was having a bad hair day and thought he'd do it as a joke. Come on........................!

Because that's what some are virtually saying about it having passed all the inspectors during its progress through the FTR programme............

When I did my Apprenticeship, which was around the same time as you, Peter, what you're doing was called "farting against thunder". This discussion can go on for ever, there's none so deaf as those who don't want to hear.

---------- Post added at 05:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:03 PM ----------


Look, the OP can believe whatever he wants, but NEVER EVER did WaA number get applied one at a time under a nazi eagle. in one photo you can clearly see the three were stamped indivicually and you can make out the stamp mark impressions. FAKE. Period. In the end it matters not WHO faked it or when.

Yes it does matter Claven cos our money is to hard earned to be given to unscrupulous sellers however many years they've been in business.

enfield303t
08-20-2010, 10:16 PM
Hopfully this will explain my thinking on why NEVER is such a dangerous word. For the model year 1978 GM NEVER built a Monte Carlo with bucket seats and a four speed floor mounted transmission...... and yet I owned one. Reason: someone screwed up or at worse was screwing with General Motors. The factory sales rep could not explain it nor anyone else that worked for GM. When registered it caused nothing but confusion as it was JUST a Monte Carlo, no special model which I was told was impossible for that car. Saying NEVER to a gun that was probably FTR'd when most of the readers were either not born or too young to be involved in the industry is a rush to judgement. Perhaps it is likely fake but I can't say it is absolutely 100% fake.

Claven2
08-20-2010, 11:57 PM
It could also be possible that it's the 285th rifle to be stamped that way.

You're kidding right? The eagle isn;t even clutching a swastika - it's like some pathetic melted cross or something. FAKE.

Claven2
08-21-2010, 12:01 AM
Perhaps it is likely fake but I can't say it is absolutely 100% fake.

OK then, let me be more clear. I would stake my entire personal equity AND yours that the eagle in my second to last post above is fake. If some of the other markings are real, then someone sure botched up a capture by adding some incorrect fake waffenampts. Like a previous posted was saying - some blind people don't actually want to see.

Oh, and German inspection marks have never been legitimately recorded with a year under them so I have to say that 1943 mark is fake too.

5thBatt
08-21-2010, 12:51 AM
Hopfully this will explain my thinking on why NEVER is such a dangerous word. For the model year 1978 GM NEVER built a Monte Carlo with bucket seats and a four speed floor mounted transmission......

Just entered "1978 Monte Carlo 4 speed manual with bucket seats" in a feature my computer has, its called "Google" you should try it.

enfield303t
08-21-2010, 03:57 AM
Just entered "1978 Monte Carlo 4 speed manual with bucket seats" in a feature my computer has, its called "Google" you should try it.

I just did Google the car and guess what all the pictures I found show it with a AUTOMATIC transmission not a 4 on the floor. The Monte Carlo was considered in Canada to be for someone wanting a "step up" from a Malibu and not a "sporty" car so they would not offer a 4 on the floor. The listed options from the Flint plant were not available on cars for Canada. The car was ordered by the dealer as a bench seat automatic transmission car but that is not what arrived. It appeared to have a Malibu SS type interior which was not available on a base model Monte Carlo. There was even confusion as to where it was built. I got a super deal as no one wanted it.

But I have digressed from a gun that actually might be legit but of course will go into the unproven forever. I still trust the owner and the story it arrived in a batch of approx 5,000 rifles. Oh and the owner also has a Thompson and two Bren's with Nazi marks.

5thBatt
08-21-2010, 04:39 AM
I found options for 305 V8 with 4 speed manual gearbox, plus option for bucket seats, one site does mention some options like the 4 speed not being available in some places

enfield303t
08-21-2010, 05:30 AM
This could go on forever, the pro's and con's about this gun. I refer back to the posting by Badger, why would you do this as it makes no sense at all. This is not a expensive gun and probably will sit at the asking price for the rest of time? It seems that if something is different then it must be fake I disagree. Just because no paperwork can be found means nothing. I remember while visiting Auschwitz being told that the Nazi's claimed no one was executed at that camp as there was no paperwork to show they did... well we all know in reality they killed scores at Auschwitz. This gun is not a Winchester that someone is trying to convince us was engraved by Nimsche which would raise the value considerably, it is a ordianary No 1 at a price that is reasonable. When I talked to the owner the story of this gun showing up made total sense, and I believe he has "handled" millions of milsurps and found some very strange ones, some many would say are fake as they don't "fit the mold". The opinon of fake holds no more water than people who think it is legit. Common sense suggests that if this gun is fake someone was nuts if they thought it would someday be worth a fortune as it was acquired in a batch of guns purchased for pennies on the dollar. I honestly believe the present owner found it exactly as shown and did not do anything to enhance the value. I will agree to a notion that a Aussie REME with a great sense of "humour " might have let this slip thru the cracks.

Son
08-21-2010, 07:57 AM
Ok, folks- Just in, the information I requested from the OP on FACTS about the rifle in it's current form.

Forget the coachwood, The butt, foreend and handguards are walnut, all EFD manufacture marked and the foreend is marked with the rifle serial. NONE of the woodwork was changed at FTR.

The FTR/52 is clearly marked on the lower left of the receiver butt socket as were all Lithgow FTR's in that time frame.

The barrel is Lithgow made, dated 1952 and serialed to the rifle. The bolt is original EFD and serialed to the rifle.

The metalwork is finished in the same green parkerize as other FTR Lithgow rifles in his collection.

There is no obvious sign of the marking on the receiver being applied after the action was parkerized. No bruising, no raised edges, no chipped finish.

Superbee also informed me that the rifle has been returned, so I feel any further speculation on the authenticity of the marks shouldn't include any reference to him.

Now, everybody with an opinion here, take a step back and re-visit your opinion with the knowledge of these FACTS as provided.
Once again, if there's anything I can answer about this, please feel free to ask.

regards,
Brad.

enfield303t
08-21-2010, 09:53 AM
Son on the serious side thanks for your posting as it is very interesting and informative. I talked to superbee shortly after his original posting and was 99% sure he was going to return the rifle. I also talked to the owner and asked him to hold it for me for 24 hours and in the end decided to let it go. Is the gun authentic, more than likely not but all along my main point was that many strange things happened during WWII and after spending countless hours years ago with the owner of the largest Nazi war collection in the world (no one disputed this fact) I saw things that people said were NEVER produced or NEVER happened. The baffling thing to me still is how it ended up in a shipment of surplus rifles that the owner bought for virtually pocket change compared to their value? I "travel" in a very small circle of shooters/collectors who say nothing but good things about the present owner and that he wouldn't fake anything. This has been interesting and on CGN is a debate about a M44 with Nazi markings, please check out that one.:thup:

In the end I may kick myself for not buying this gun.

Claven2
08-21-2010, 11:05 AM
I can assure you the dealer would not have faked the rifle. I know the guy well and he would not do that. That being said, nobody has shown proof this rifle was in a pallet shipment. It's anecdotal at best. Even the registry didn't exist when those pallets came in so there likely IS no documentation.

The dealer goes to gunshows and shops and buys inventory regularly and after millions of transactions, his memory is not THAT good.

Now as for metal stamps over blue or parkerizing - how many people here have stamped rifles that were blue or parked already? I know I have. Quite regularly, in fact, because I'm a part time machinst and gun owners have often brought me their unserialized guns to be stamped in compliance with the stoopid Canadian registry laws. I've stamped hundreds. Unless the stamps are of low quality and burred up, there IS no finish disturbed from stamping the metal. It is displaced, but not abraded. Parkerizing is either a zinc or manganese phosphate that adheres chemically to the surface of the gun and like blueing it does not flake off when stamped.

villiers
08-21-2010, 11:14 AM
Am I glad that I´m not a collector! I turned down a Luger once as it had an SS stamp on it. My three rifles (2 Enfields and one Mauser) are all in perfect condition and I wouldn´t exchange one of them for all the stamps in China.

Son
08-21-2010, 05:51 PM
I can assure you the dealer would not have faked the rifle. I know the guy well and he would not do that. That being said, nobody has shown proof this rifle was in a pallet shipment. It's anecdotal at best. Even the registry didn't exist when those pallets came in so there likely IS no documentation.

The dealer goes to gunshows and shops and buys inventory regularly and after millions of transactions, his memory is not THAT good.

Now as for metal stamps over blue or parkerizing - how many people here have stamped rifles that were blue or parked already? I know I have. Quite regularly, in fact, because I'm a part time machinst and gun owners have often brought me their unserialized guns to be stamped in compliance with the stoopid Canadian registry laws. I've stamped hundreds. Unless the stamps are of low quality and burred up, there IS no finish disturbed from stamping the metal. It is displaced, but not abraded. Parkerizing is either a zinc or manganese phosphate that adheres chemically to the surface of the gun and like blueing it does not flake off when stamped.

I too have stamped and engraved many weapons with a variety if finishes. It's part of my job. As hard as the parkerizing processes finish is, it still can be cut by a sharp edged stamp. When I asked the question, I was looking to see if it could be proved the stamp was applied after the parkerize- a cut through the finish to shiny metal or any disturbance of the finish would have done that conclusively. All I could do was repeat the answer I got, even though it didn't help the cause either way.

enfield303t
08-21-2010, 08:28 PM
I think the owner has purchased millions of guns but would wager has not done MILLIONS of transactions and personally I know when I experience something very odd I remember the details forever and that is why I believe the owner when he told me how this Enfield came into his possession. Hopefully someday more information will be available on this gun and if I have to "eat crow" I will glady do it, it might be even more interesting if other people have to do the eating instead. :lol:

finloq
08-21-2010, 08:34 PM
It's kind of like chess, the more times that you get beat, the more you learn.
Every time that someone more experienced points out a fallacy of mine, I learn something.
I am though, proud to be a sophist.

Brian Dick
08-23-2010, 08:55 AM
Re-posting from earlier feedback, now with pics attached .....


I was going to keep quiet but what the Hell. I have one of these SMLE's that I purchased several years ago at a show. It's a 1918 SSA with a mismatch bolt in good, original condition. I bought the rifle, not the story and paid a bit of a premium at the time but nothing extreme. It's marked totally different with just a tiny droopy wing eagle, (pre 1941), apparently applied in Liege, Belgium on both barrel and receiver ring. It has a small Luftwaffe eagle stamped on the right side of the buttstock with L.Z.A. stamped underneath it. I showed this rifle to Ian Skennerton and he photographed it at the time. It turned up in his Arms and Militaria magazine in an article by Brian Labudda and was shrugged off publically as a blatant fake and he said the stamps could be readily purchased at Sarco. I did further research and found out that it wasn't true. I happen to know Charlie Steen and he's never sold those type stamps. Ian also met the previous owner of the rifle at Tulsa and was told the story and he phoned me back to say he wasn't convinced it's a fake anymore so there you go. I don't think this one is a fake but I really don't know. I have photos somewhere and if I can find them, I'll get Badger to post them for me. Unfortunately, the rifle has been tainted by an article in a magazine with world wide circulation so maybe it's tainted forever because a self proclaimed expurt says so.

Son
08-23-2010, 09:13 AM
At least they admitted to you they were not sure... Have seen other similar cases, well, best left at that.

enfield303t
08-23-2010, 09:41 AM
Brian, thank for the posting and a very interesting rifle. I agree with your quote of "expurts", seems to me if "they" haven't experienced it or seen it then it must be a fake. I would love to have your rifle and seeing as it is so tainted would you sell it to me at a very reasonable price? :rofl:

Remember Freud was such a great expert...his ideas have had so many holes shot in them they look like Swiss cheese.

smellie
08-23-2010, 04:59 PM
Guys, I have been watching this rifle on three boards. Simply put, I have nothing to add to this debate. I like to get old rifles and make them work. The Lee-Enfield is one of my favourites, but that's about as far as it goes.

That said, somebody really ought to point out that the Lee-Enfield rifle has really been around this old world of ours. Fritz got heaps of them on the Western Front every time some hare-brained scheme for 'straightening the Line' came about or another 'Big Push' took place.... with the concomitant horrific casaualties to our Armies. In Belgium, they are still digging up men and rifles that just, plain disappeared. One of these days they might even dig up a couple of my great-uncles who are still 'missing in action'! So Fritz had lots of LEs, right from 1914 onward. Remember, we RETREATED at Mons, and that was only the first in a line of screaming disasters. The Kaiserliche Schutztruppe in DOA picked up enough just at Tanga that they were able to use the LE as one of their main fighting rifles for the remainder of the Great War.

Now come to the Second Great Bloodletting. Dunkirk. Dieppe. The "Benghazi Sweepstakes" every few months. There must have been at least ONE lost in Italy. The Baltic States were lousy with LEs: the LE and the Ross were their official rifles.

Fritz had his hands on a whole bunch of them at one time or another. That is historical fact.

Now we come to the rifle. I ran into its twin at the Brandon Gun Show about 10 years ago.
"Interesting," was one comment.
"Fake," was another.
"TWO TWENTY-FIVE," was another (in a roar), then, quietly, "Oh well, it does have an awful nice barrel."

The rifle went to Winnipeg and I couldn't raise the money, so that was that. I know the dealer. He is a decent guy and honest. As to the horrific 'premium' he was asking, it worked out to about 25 bucks, 40 at most, but he pays shipping, too.

I have no idea if it was 'real' or not, but it had that smell about it. I would have been MOST happy to have obtained it.

But there ARE more out there,

BTW, I am told (although I do not have one) that the Germans actually manufactured .303 ammunition with lacquered-steel cases. That would tend to indicate a large number of .303 rifles in German Service.

Be even stranger if a few DIDN'T get marked.

FWIW (likely not much).

enfield303t
08-23-2010, 05:08 PM
smellie, I hava a pretty extensive ammunition collection dating prior to the American Civil War but no German made .303. If someone has a spare and wants to part with it I would be willing to buy it at a fair price.

Kev G
08-23-2010, 08:10 PM
Brian some more Luftwaffe .303's ?
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/luft2-1.jpg

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/luft1-1.jpg

pictures stolen from Ebay

SpikeDD
08-23-2010, 09:14 PM
As Kev G ( Excellent photos ! ), Smellie and a few others have pointed out, the Germans did in fact capture many hundreds of British weapons. They were marked and used. I can't see them being used as front line weapons as the munition supply would have been a logistical nightmare, I mean, didn't they have enough trouble keeping tract of and shipping there own stuff let alone trying to remember where some poor soul's were using a .303 ? I'm thinking more likely back line service. That being said, I just thought I would remind everyone that the capturing, marking and use of the Enfield was never in debate or being denied having happened. It was this particular rifle that was in question.

I personally wouldn't be able to tell one way or another if a German marking was fake or not. I would have brought the rifle to the attention of the boards and got the answers I got. Based on those answers, and the fact that I don't know the difference, I would have had to pass on the rifle. As far as "experts" go... we sure trust those whom we consider "experts" here on the Enfield boards, don't we ? Why wouldn't the same exist on other boards ? That's not to say there isn't anyone with out fault or being mistaken... but, where are you supposed to start then ?

curly
08-24-2010, 12:04 AM
I think the bloke second on the left in the second photo is holding the fake stamps from eBay, these Australian cadets seem quite older than ours in the UK.

Curly

jonnyc
08-24-2010, 12:22 AM
"I am told (although I do not have one) that the Germans actually manufactured .303 ammunition with lacquered-steel cases."

Must agree with Enfield303t, no such round has ever been reported or documented in the cartridge world. Between the .303 ammo the Germans captured in the West, North Africa, and the Baltic States, I doubt they needed to even consider producing any.

enfield303t
08-24-2010, 12:24 AM
I think the bloke second on the left in the second photo is holding the fake stamps from eBay, these Australian cadets seem quite older than ours in the UK.

Curly

Curly, great to see you have a sense of humour.:lol: I still have a feeling the gun is legit, maybe worked on by some fool but still legit. One thing is the story I got from the present owner is legit, his reputation according to my friends is impecable.

Peter Laidler
08-24-2010, 05:04 AM
But so far, nobody has ever seen an officially stamped backward facing eagle thinggy or cack handed swastika. And so far, again, no one has been able to give an explanation for such a beast on the rifle. Until those queries are answered, then all of the other points to ponder are simply red herrings thrown in to confuse.

But brilliant photos KG. Can anyone identify the slings or indeed the period/year from the uniforms

enfield303t
08-24-2010, 09:34 AM
But so far, nobody has ever seen an officially stamped backward facing eagle thinggy or cack handed swastika. And so far, again, no one has been able to give an explanation for such a beast on the rifle. Until those queries are answered, then all of the other points to ponder are simply red herrings thrown in to confuse.

But brilliant photos KG. Can anyone identify the slings or indeed the period/year from the uniforms

You are right Peter but possibly we are about to break new ground here. I know of one person still searching for a photo in his collection of printed material (which is beyond huge) who thinks he might have seen a photo of something similiar in regard to one of the markings. I do know the story of how it ended up in Canada is believable and true and seeing as this thread appears to have great life maybe the story will come out in the end.

Badger
08-24-2010, 11:08 AM
Well, it doesn't seem that difficult to locate the stamps ... :lol:

Regards,
Badger

Claven2
08-24-2010, 02:54 PM
Sadly true... :(

Peter Laidler
08-24-2010, 03:23 PM
I've obviously been living a sheltered life.......... Those stamps, available for sale... that's amazing. But alas, none with a cack handed swastika thinggy

Alan de Enfield
08-24-2010, 03:37 PM
Numrich sell the stamps and their eagle is looking over its right shoulder :

Numrich Gun Parts Corp. - The World's Largest Supplier of Firearms Parts and Accessories
(http://gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Search.aspx?filter=stamp+metal)

Hand Stamp, German Nazi Eagle - Use On Metal Wood Or Leather Surfaces.
(http://gunpartscorp.com/catalog/Detail.aspx?pid=811660&filter=stamp+metal&catid=0)

On the MG42 forum they are discussing them as well :

"Look at the pretty Numrich Birdies ! !

Of course there are stamps that people use to make fraudulent k98 rifles. One of the collectors on gunboards.com has a huge collection of the stamps he got from Europe. He does not hump rifles with them, he just collects the stamps (and rifles too). the Numrich stamps are far enough away from the original that they can be spotted by an experienced k98 collector."

bearhunter
08-26-2010, 01:29 AM
Alan de Enfield, that isn't even close to being the same stamp on the OPs rifle. One of the mods here, just got his pee pee smacked by the original owner of the rifle in question, on CGN. I'm surprised, he isn't chiming in here. I suggest you send your links to him on CGN and see what he says and when he aquired the rifle. He has records that go back many years and are federally documented. This rifle is in his personal collection and came from several thousand, he purchased from a warehouse in Europe.
This whole scenario is turning into a ****ing contest. It may have destroyed the value of a credible relic as well. IMHO, the rifle and stamps are legitimate. That is only my humble opinion though. If I could afford that rifle, I would own it, no questions asked, especially, knowing the seller.

bigduke6
08-26-2010, 04:14 AM
But so far, nobody has ever seen an officially stamped backward facing eagle thinggy or cack handed swastika. And so far, again, no one has been able to give an explanation for such a beast on the rifle. Until those queries are answered, then all of the other points to ponder are simply red herrings thrown in to confuse.

But brilliant photos KG. Can anyone identify the slings or indeed the period/year from the uniforms

The Tunic is the Flying Blouse (Fliegerbluse) dated around 1940, was issued to flying personnel only, but became popular throughout the Luftwaffe, think this is the second issue, as the first had no pockets or national emblem.

Claven2
08-26-2010, 06:33 AM
Bearhunter - too much faith is being placed in who the dealer was. This, IMHO, is tomfoolery. Dealers are subject to the same ill-advised purchases as we are and despite this dealer's rep, no-one can say he has never been sold a faked rifle. LOTS of faked nazi guns have come from Yugoslavia - on pallets and otherwise.

To date, on the CGN thread, nothing the dealer has said aside from typing in capital letters has changed any of the facts already known about the TWO rifles in question (the other is an M44). Similar stories, same lack of proof of legitimacy.

buy the rifle, not the story - regardless of who the dealer is. If you ignore the identity of the seller, do you still believe this rifle is real? That is what you SHOULD be asking yourself. You know I personally believe it to be a fiction piece, and you are free to believe whatever you choose to believe.

Brit plumber
08-26-2010, 06:56 AM
How much more money over a standard rifle is it? I actually like the look of the rifle even it didn't have the stamps. My German captured Bren was actually less cost than a normaly priced Bren, It came from a big surplus dealer who gave me the option of one of 3 he had for sale. I picked it purely on the fact that it was a Inglis Intermediate gun, and only found the Eagle when I cleaned it. I only found one eagle but there are signs of some scrubbing to the body where other marks may have been.

All in all, I bet this rifle becomes a well documented weapon.

Claven2
08-26-2010, 08:42 AM
It was sold to the OP for $1000 based upon the price on the dealer's website. No idea if the actual price was negotiated down or not.

Peter Laidler
08-26-2010, 09:20 AM
Bearhunter, I and the remainder of the doubting forumers know what you're saying but the facts remain that to date we have no proof of a backwards facing genuine eagle and a cack handed swastika thinggy. Not ever, on any bit of German kit. I have to freely admit that what I know about German kit or even Germany could be written on the back of a postage stamp with a biro and there'd STILL be room for the Lords Prayer. But I do know a lot about the Military FTR programmes, especially the UK and Australia. And the notion that these or any other stamps or markings (except the usual FW or BW markings of course.....) would remain is beyond belief

enfield303t
08-26-2010, 09:31 AM
I think in my humble opinion the owner's story is extremely important in the case of both of these rifles. Both rifles in question came in a lot purchased for almost scrap value so the markings if put on by the original seller had no value so why would you be so stupid to do that. Also if I have read correctly the M44 was stored in a crate since 1947 and the "commies" were too busy beating their rifles into plowshares to worry about faking anything. Stalin was trying to feed some of his new captives (Poles, Czechs etc) and there was so much crap left from the war that was available and legit no one would waste their time faking anything. To all that immediately yell "FAKE" try to think of this logically, the history as told by the original owner is provable by paperwork, I have nothing but trust on his word as EVERYONE I have ever talked to (and not just about this debacle) say he is completely honest. The next logical question is why would it have been done if the person that did it saw no monetary gain? The real sad part is all the negative comments on both rifles has virtually destroyed any chance of these rifles getting a fair shake by collectors and that is sad and so far neither side has been able to prove their point. Experts are only experts in what they have seen and do you believe ONLY what you have seen? I would like to see the Enfield end up being legit but if it is or isn't my main point is to have everyone think logically before they cry out NEVER.

villiers
08-26-2010, 09:57 AM
In contrast to public opinion, German armed forces, once away from their barracks, did not adhere strictly to regulations. Junior officers were encouraged to make their own decisions and other ranks were trained to do the best they could. It is very likely that use was made of a hastily run up, duff stamp on newly captured weapons under conditions on the battlefield. Ex Wehrmacht NCOs I´ve told about this discussion just smile and admit that anything´s likely.

But under present market conditions, collectors want (and pay for) perfectly faked (or sometimes genuine) items and dismiss anything that does not conform to their somewhat vague historical knowledge.

Son
08-26-2010, 10:41 AM
After a bit of digging I found several references to Nazi Eagles over Swastikas. It would seem that the eagle looking over the right or left shoulder has indeed got different meanings.

Now, before anyone jumps up and says this information doesn't include weapons, it does include statues and buildings, belt buckles, flags, helmets, daggers, caps... in fact, almost everything the German army wore- but then, it is a uniform site. Don't take my word for it, have a look yourselves. At the link below, open any type of equipment on the list and then look at insignia for the respective units/ departments. You will see that for the National symbol, the eagle faces right and on Nazi party symbols, the eagle faces left.

Axis History Factbook: Uniforms (http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=4646)

Here's another link that supports the eagle head direction thingy...

German Nazi Eagle Statues (http://www.kwintessential.co.uk/articles/article/Germany/German-Nazi-Eagle-Statues--/4175)

BTW, which of the original pics of the rifle has the swastika backwards? Two of them aren't clear, but I'd stop short of saying they are definitely backwards...


Here's two pics showing hat badges. The one looking over the right shoulder is Police (National symbol) The one looking over the left is Waffen-SS and SS (Nazi symbol)

Peter Laidler
08-26-2010, 10:46 AM
Ah yes Villiers, but what about when you are not in battlefield conditions or in a hasty fraught situation? What about for example, a peacetime factory in 1952, busy FTR'ing many thousand rifles, being out-inspected at each stage by eagle eyed inspectors. The War is over, Korea is just about finished, nothing else on the horizon.

I know people believe what they want to believe but when it comes to faking something up, then there are better and less obvious fakes. That's only my opinion base on my scant knowledge of anything German but a good insight into what we call '.........the bleedin' obvious'

And I can see exactly what Son is saying too. Take the REME badge for example, where the horse looks to the left. Where there is a SET of badges, in the collar for example, then the OPPOSITE one will show the horse facing the right. BUT, like the swastika thinggy, the all important crown wouldn't be defaced.................. Just a thought

enfield303t
08-26-2010, 11:03 AM
I think it is not much of a stretch to put the Enfield and the M44 into the same category so here goes. The 44 is in a depot in a communist country sometime after 45 but before 48. This is a "given" as THE DEALER told us the gun was in a case packed in 47 and he has the paperwork to prove it. Should you disagree with this statement then I think it is only fair you must take the $1,000.00 challenge THE DEALER has put forward and prove this wrong. In this depot is a worker, probably making less than $1.00 a day and has some spare time to have some fun. He has been thinking for weeks how he can financially help someone somewhere in the future and comes up with the idea of marking a few guns with the Nazi stamps he has (unknown to him if stamps are fake or real). He does this with the realization that many many years in the future these guns will have a higher value. This person is not a good communist as he his thinking is capitalist so profit is important for him or someone else. He marks some guns with the expectation that the seller who makes the profit will track him down and share his "booty". And all this time I wondered why communism failed???

Oatmeal Savage
08-26-2010, 02:43 PM
The facts speak for themself, all else is bumph.

Frederick303
08-26-2010, 02:58 PM
I would add, looking at the pictures, that the NAZI markings look too crisp on the buttstock.

I have a FTR 52 from the same batch, and the wood likes very similar to that wood, except it is coachwood, not Walnut. Now the stock in that picure looks sanded, there are dents you can see that have been sanded over, part of the FTR process. The unmarked stock on my rifle was also sanded. Yet on the pictures of the rifle in question, the Nazi marking looks just like new, with no sign of being sanded over.

The final part of the FTR was to soak the wood in linseed oil, which will tend to both darken the crushed area under stamping and also fill them up. You can see some sheen in the picture, the wood does have oil on it. Yet in this case, there is no filling of the NAZI marking, almost as if it had been added after the FTR.....

If that were not enough, the folks that collect 98K rifles think it is a fake stamp marking. Now the 98K collectors have been fighting faking for years, on the Gunboards site they have some very good posts on fakes, as the prices on Germna wepons are far higher than enfields.

Enfield collectors have seen little of this, other than with sniper rifles, due to the generally lower price of enfields prior to the last 5 to 6 years. This rifle seems to be no more than a 200 or 300 dollar rifle (at most), that sold for 900 or 100 dollars because of this marking. One can say the seller is honest, but the collecting world has seen many examples of high end collectors, authors and dealers getting caught creating fantasy pieces or passing on as real pieces that they knew to be fake rather than taking the loss themselves.

There was a very well known fellow about 4~5 years ago who specialized in pointing out fake 98K sniper rifles. He was caught making fake 98K snipers as a rifle that came up for auction that had no scope suddenly became a sniper after he got his paws on it.

One of the main collectors who opened his collection of 98K rifles for pictures in what is considered to be the definitive published book on the 98K was put in an embarassing posiition when the condition of one of his rifles evolved between the first and second edition of the book. It seemed he was making some modifications to his rifles.

In the world of M1 Garands, one of the first published authorites on M1 rifles has been caught "correcting" the parts on samples sold by his firm, that is replacing parts on rifles to ensure ther rifles had the correct dash numbers for the period in which it was first assembled, such is the differnce between correct and non-correct pieces

There is an author of a book on the Indian Enfields which is thought to have generated a number of upgraded or renumbered Lee-Enfield rifles for sale.

Not saying the seller is dishonest, simply saying that the rifle must be judged on its own merits, who the seller is and his statements does not really have any bearing on the rifles correctness. This rifle looks bad, plain a simple.

Peter Laidler
08-26-2010, 03:09 PM
I know it's going off the actual subject for a moment and not wishing to follow the red-herring line of thought. But, of all the hundreds of thousands of brand new container air-dropped Sten guns captured, where they fell, after the French resistance was fully compromised. Have any of those ever appeared with wermacht/nazi markings. I don't know, but I did examine about 4,000 siezed/bonded Stens prior to the little book being published. And I never saw one!

The captured air dropped guns were put into store and issued. As I understand it, these seized guns were used to equip the 'new' Norwegian Army in 1945

Claven2
08-26-2010, 03:18 PM
Also if I have read correctly the M44 was stored in a crate since 1947 and the "commies" were too busy beating their rifles into plowshares to worry about faking anything. [...]

the history as told by the original owner is provable by paperwork, [...]

The real sad part is all the negative comments on both rifles has virtually destroyed any chance of these rifles getting a fair shake by collectors

1) You have no proof either of these rifles was crated in 1947. The Enfield was clearly not as it was FTR in 1952. The dealer AT NO TIME has claimed he can prove the m44 was crated in 1947, or at least he hasn;t in writing on a forum - only that he can prove it came to Canada in a pallet from Yugoslavia. He actually typed pallet on CGN - not crate.

2) paperwork which nobody has seen since he probably doesn't have it. He only has the importation records I'll wager. Even if the crate has 1947 stencilled on it, can you or he prove it wasn;t opened since 1947? $1000 is steep, but I'll take his bet for $100 in cash that he can't prove to me the M44 crate was packed in 1947 and not opened since.

3) The rifles are being publicly scrutinized for the first time. They are getting their fair shake, even if you do not agree with the results.

villiers
08-26-2010, 03:20 PM
The Sten and the German Mauser copy (Gerät Neumünster) were issued to the Volkssturm (home guard) which was not a Wehrmacht unit. Their equipment towards the end of WWII was nondescript and these weapons were not likely to have been stamped in accordance with Wehrmacht regulations.

Gerät Neumünster:-

Claven2
08-26-2010, 03:25 PM
Should you disagree with this statement then I think it is only fair you must take the $1,000.00 challenge John has put forward and prove this wrong.

Because someone offers a challenge that he knows most people can't afford to match in order to stifle debate, we are supposed to just all nod and agree the rifle is a rare legitimate capture? Is that truely your position?

I prefer to examine the facts to draw my conclusions.

The capture mark in question has a cross, not a swastika. It's eagle doesn't match eagles on any other german weapon and nobody can produce a photograpgh of any other weapin with an eagle that looks anything like that one. Beneath it, three numbers were individually stamped similar to a waffenampt, except, the genre of eagle in question is not a WaA eagle but rather a proof eagle that is poorly executed. It just does not match any of the known ways in which germans marked captured rifles. It does not match German markings at all. The Nazi symbol is a swastika, not a cross.

Put simply, there are more things pointing to it being a fake and only "mabye they..." and "what if..." statements supporting it being real. This is pretty shaky ground to justify paying $1000 for an FTR'd cadet rifle.

Claven2
08-26-2010, 03:30 PM
The Sten and the German Mauser copy (Gerät Neumünster) were issued to the Volkssturm (home guard) which was not a Wehrmacht unit. Their equipment towards the end of WWII was nondescript and these weapons were not likely to have been stamped in accordance with Wehrmacht regulations.

Gerät Neumünster:-

but we are expected to believe (by the same dealer who sold this rifle) than a 1945 M44 was captured and marked with no fewer then 9 German eagles.

Peter Laidler
08-26-2010, 05:23 PM
Ah yes Villiers, but they were CAPTURED AND STORED by the wermacht. Then presumably issued to the volkspeople by them. Yes?

I don't want to cloud the real issue with this side issue. I just toss it in as a further point to ponder.

finloq
08-26-2010, 07:05 PM
I would be very interested in seeing the top of the barrel on the M44. Looking for one of the Soviet refurb markings from the 70's massive refurb program.

Claven2
08-26-2010, 09:36 PM
Since you asked, here are the pics of the other rifle under discussion from the same dealer.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

Claven2
08-26-2010, 09:49 PM
In the case of the above rifle, the WaA's at least look quite good. What I feel makes this one suspect are the following:

1) No less than 4 eagles on the receiver ring, three of which appear to be firing proofs with no number and one of which has a number, WaA241. WaA241, according to Backbone, seems to have been retired as an inspector in 1935, 10 years before this rifle was made.

2) Nobody seems to have seen a captured arm marked with the german designation number for that model on the receiver or anywhere else, but this one has it. Oddly, the three numbers (457) all seem to be in different size font from each other.

3) The WaA on the bayonet lug is highly suspect to me since the Germans didn't manufacture that parts, so difficult to imagine they gauged it and inspected it there.

4) the rifle was made some time in 1945, apparently captured, returned to a heereswaffenampt depot, inspected and stamped 7 times, then returned to the front line for issue and in that short time, it managed to end up with no two parts matching each other in serial number.

5) the buttstock has been sanded, no shellac remains on it and the soviet factory cartouche is obliterated. This suggests some level of rework which the Germans would not have done in 1945. If it happened after the war, one would think the eagle on the wrist would no longer be there.

On the positive side, it doesn't show signs of Soviet rework. It does not have the dish cuts behind the rear band, its a wartime M44 stock, no diamond or square refurb marks on the receiver or barrel shank, bayonet lug consistent with 1944 or first half 1945 manufacture and it has the added bonus of being built on a recycled earlier hex receiver.

It's a relatively collectable non-refurb early M44 even without nazi markings.

finloq
08-26-2010, 10:13 PM
Yep.
Stock has been sanded and refinished.
Missing the Soviet refurb stamps, but is a complete mismatch: Bolt, Barrel, Magazine, Butt Plate, etc.
Is it a trick of the light or does the receiver blue seem mostly intact, while the barrel's has been polished much more.
The Germans stamped the carbine all over, but left the Soviet crest and then the Soviets left the German stamps?

Claven2
08-26-2010, 10:28 PM
Supposedly it was crated up in Yugoslavia after the war and hadn't been touched since 1947. In other words, it supposedly didn't go back to the Soviet Union, but stayed in Yugoslavia after the war. Either way, I don't get how it got so mismatched - clearly someone refurbed it and didn't bother re-numbering the parts to match, which just screams pot-war balkans rework to me. If the bolt was swapped along with the stock, how did they end up with the same WaA inspector's stamp on them, and why WaA241 which supposedly was not used after 1945?

Lots of unanswered questions on this rifle too, I'm afraid.

enfield303t
08-26-2010, 11:01 PM
Peter on the serious side where did you see that hundreds of thousands of stens were air dropped and captured? I am only asking as I saw a documentary on the Military Channel of how the French underground was compromised and I forget the number of weapons they said were captured but seriously in was in the thousands and I quite sure they said 10,000 rounds of ammunition. I think I would have remembered if they had mentioned hundreds of thousands. This documentary was on in the last couple of days.

Thanks

enfield303t
08-26-2010, 11:12 PM
I think if the guns were shipped on pallets they would have been crated and the crates would be packed on pallets. Shipping from a old iron curtain country would never have been loose weapons. I categorized the guns only on the strange markings and not that they were from the same era or storage depot. I know the Enfield did not come in a crate dated 1947. I am just happy that this thread is getting a life of its own as the more that see it the more knowledge will be shared. I'll say it again, I have no problem believing something is very strange at the least with these two guns, just won't believe something very strange NEVER happened.

jonnyc
08-26-2010, 11:39 PM
Ok, just to set the stage, I have BA's in History, and International Relations, and a Master's in History. I've been teaching all sorts of military history at high school level for 17 years. I have been collecting and studying milsurps for at least 25 years. I've seen and read the opinions of lots of very knowledgeable people in books, in the flesh, and on-line. I feel comfortable saying "never" over the idea that a rifle made in Russia 1945 could have been issued to a Soviet soldier, captured by the Germans, overhauled and inspected, and reissued to a German, all between January and May 1945. I don't believe the Germans would have had the time, manpower, or inclination to make such a rifle possible, they had much more serious things to deal with.
I have seen and heard some pretty strange things in my life, but NEVER is no problem for me under the right circumstances.

enfield303t
08-27-2010, 12:37 AM
I think it is only fair to say that the post by Son thickens the plot, I just found it as I have been working and my friend bearhunter called me to tell me about it. I read the last postings a hour or so ago but didn't know the one by Son existed 'till now. Thanks again Son your post just makes sure this thread is gong to last even longer.

Son
08-27-2010, 02:07 AM
I think it is only fair to say that the post by Son thickens the plot, I just found it as I have been working and my friend bearhunter called me to tell me about it. I read the last postings a hour or so ago but didn't know the one by Son existed 'till now. Thanks again Son your post just makes sure this thread is gong to last even longer.

I don't care which way the discussion goes- I have very little knowledge of the German and Nazi equipment and marking practices, and find it all quite interesting. There's been a few assumptions/ assertions made, especially by some of the earlier posters, that have been taken as gospel. The "eagle facing the wrong way" was mentioned here, but rammed down the throats of the inexperienced on another board. I hope that my post may have re-opened a few eyes at least.
Finding out the rifle is still bearing it's original walnut, and not the assumed '51 FTR coachwood, took the wind out of a couple of sails over there too.
I still cannot see a picture here that convinces me a swastika is backwards. Could someone please tell me which one to study and I'll try some photoshop magic on it. I'm not sure the eagle's head should be such an issue now...

Homer2
08-27-2010, 03:18 AM
Milsurp rifles were captured, stamped and used by opposing nations. There are literally thousands of Mosins and other soviet weapons that bear Nazi stamps.


Where? I have seen plenty of WW1 captured stamps on Mosins from Germany and Austria, but never seen a legitimate WW2 German marked Mosin. That M44 is really sad. If it weren't stamped by someone with ADD, it would be a nice example of an unusual Mosin and quite desirable.

I would love to see an example of a Nazi marked Mosin for comparison. There have been plenty of Finn marked [SA] 91/30's that were recaptured by the Soviets and imported with the last batch of refurb rifles. If there were truely Nazi marked Mosins, there would be ample examples showing up with refurbs and other places. No such thing as far as I have seen.

Germans definately used SVTs, Mosins, TT-33s, and such. Were they property marked? How many of those have turned up?

Buy the rifle, not the story. It's called a Criswellian Fallacy to have to prove something didn't happen. The burden of proof is not on the skeptic.

Criswell's Razor - TCS Daily (http://www.ideasinactiontv.com/tcs_daily/2004/10/criswells-razor.html)

villiers
08-27-2010, 04:00 AM
Ah yes Villiers, but they were CAPTURED AND STORED by the wermacht. Then presumably issued to the volkspeople by them. Yes?

I don't want to cloud the real issue with this side issue. I just toss it in as a further point to ponder.

Yes Peter, they were captured and stored by the Wehrmacht ... but not ISSUED to Wehrmacht units. When the time came, they were broken out of storage and handed out to the local Volkssturm. (From what I´ve heard, they were then discarded in the nearest ditch).

To get back on topic: the immediate re-issue of captured weapons (i.e. Enfields) would necessarily entail a quick armourer´s check and cursory application of acceptance stamps to indicate permitted use. Don´t really think that those responsible would have had latter-day US collectors in mind while doing their job under improvised or front line conditions. B*ggered stamps are not all that uncommon.

Claven2
08-27-2010, 06:41 AM
I think if the guns were shipped on pallets they would have been crated and the crates would be packed on pallets. Shipping from a old iron curtain country would never have been loose weapons. I categorized the guns only on the strange markings and not that they were from the same era or storage depot. I know the Enfield did not come in a crate dated 1947. I am just happy that this thread is getting a life of its own as the more that see it the more knowledge will be shared. I'll say it again, I have no problem believing something is very strange at the least with these two guns, just won't believe something very strange NEVER happened.

As far as I am aware, it is this dealer's standard practise to destroy the crates in the country of origina and either box or palletize the guns to cut down on freight costs. This is exactly what they just did with their Chinese SKS shipment. In any event, no way they kept the crates since the 1990's, so again, I wait to see proof this was in a crate never touched by human hands since 1947. I suspect I will wait forever.

Claven2
08-27-2010, 06:47 AM
I still cannot see a picture here that convinces me a swastika is backwards. Could someone please tell me which one to study and I'll try some photoshop magic on it. I'm not sure the eagle's head should be such an issue now...

This is the one that bothers me the most. All other eagles face left on the rifle, this one faces right. Now look at the wreath and the "swastika". Given the clearness of the strike of the whole stamp, do the wreath and swastika look kosher to you? Now someone please show me a WaA on any other german arm where the inspector numbers are punched individually with ring-collared hardware store type number stamps in arial font.

http://www.milsurps.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15004&d=1281874241

villiers
08-27-2010, 08:00 AM
A hastily botched stamp on a captured rifle for use by some semi regular unit on guard duty somewhere. One could hardly expect Wehrmacht armourers in war time to go the full Monty on refurbing scrap metal.

jrhead75
08-27-2010, 08:19 AM
Just a couple of question on this, since I haven't been following all it's permutations on all the boards...has there been even one experienced collector of WWII German militaria that buys into this rifle? Where are the others like it, or did the Germans only do the one? Does anyone here really believe that the Germans would have had the time, resources, or inclination to do up that Mosin like that at any time in 1945?

I'm honestly amazed that this is still being debated.

Claven2
08-27-2010, 09:36 AM
To answer your question, no. No well known German militaria collectors have weighted in on the "it's real" side fo the arguement on any ofthe threads I've been following. The only guys who are siding with the "it's real" camp are the Enfield and Mosin guys, and typically the newer collectors from what I can discern.

All I can say is if guys like bearhunter or enfield303t believe it to be legitimate, they should contact the dealer to purchase it because I think the OP returned it, if I'm not mistaken. He posted here it in the first place due to doubts about its authenticity.

Son
08-27-2010, 10:42 AM
This is the one that bothers me the most. All other eagles face left on the rifle, this one faces right. Now look at the wreath and the "swastika". Given the clearness of the strike of the whole stamp, do the wreath and swastika look kosher to you? Now someone please show me a WaA on any other german arm where the inspector numbers are punched individually with ring-collared hardware store type number stamps in arial font.

http://www.milsurps.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=15004&d=1281874241

Ok, where would a German rifle be when it was stamped? At the end of a production line at the factory perhaps? Why would a captured rifle go to a factory that doesn't make them? The stamp looks more like it's damaged... not "factory" quality. Not an inspection by someone who has his own special made stamp?

Enough speculation from me... until there's more facts.

Oh, I'd say the OP posted here hoping to get treated reasonably (which he has), not flung against a wall and stoned for being a blasphemer.

Claven2
08-27-2010, 01:02 PM
Ok, where would a German rifle be when it was stamped? At the end of a production line at the factory perhaps? Why would a captured rifle go to a factory that doesn't make them? The stamp looks more like it's damaged... not "factory" quality. Not an inspection by someone who has his own special made stamp?
[...]
Oh, I'd say the OP posted here hoping to get treated reasonably (which he has), not flung against a wall and stoned for being a blasphemer.

There are really only two possibilities for where the rifle would get stamped. One would be a rear echelon arms depot and the other would be a repair facility. Rifles captured and re-issued in the field out of necessity would not have gotten stamped at all. Arms edpots and repair facilities would have had proper heereswaffenampt inspection staff right up until mid-1944 (after which the liklihood of ANy capture stamps goes WAY down as those units were pilfered to supply personnel to the Eastern Front.). Heereswafemampt inspectors used proper stamps which were readily available to them. they didn't need to "improvise". Like any beurocrat today, they would not allow anything into the field where a soldier or arms inspector would not be able to positively identify a "safe to use" marking as being legitimate.

Certainly no inspectors would add their inspection number under and eagle with individual stamps. Purpose-made WaA stamps with the numbers already underneath were provided and were required to be used.

I also don't think anyone has stoned either the original poster or the dealer. Healthy discussion about the pieces involved and their authenticity is to be encouraged, but similarly, it doesn't help to spend too much time on "What if...." type fanciful imaginations and musngs. The methods and tools of the WaA are well documented in dozens of books on the subject and if a piece desont; fit that pattern, at best it's suspect. At worst, an obvious fake.

RobSmith
08-27-2010, 01:03 PM
The fact that they would have been quickly discarded would not have been hard to believe. If you extrapolate from WW1 stories and those caught with "sawback" bayonets and the rumors of particularly harsh treatment that they received, it's not hard to see how similar rumors would have quickly circulated regarding those caught in possession of captured "enemy" equipment ...


Yes Peter, they were captured and stored by the Wehrmacht ... but not ISSUED to Wehrmacht units. When the time came, they were broken out of storage and handed out to the local Volkssturm. (From what I´ve heard, they were then discarded in the nearest ditch).

Kev G
08-27-2010, 02:20 PM
I think the German use of captured weapons is well documentated,I believe someone (Son ?) has allready posted a link to the Axis History forums which has an ongoing thread dedicated to photographic evidence of this (mainly Soviet small arms).
Whether any captured small arm was checked and stamped by an inspector I don't know.Apart from giving it a 'once over' it seems not allot more could be done without having gauging limits for every type and calibre of weapon that might be encountered ?
I am more familiar with Waffenampt inspection stamps (WaA followed by the inspectors number under a stylised eagle) e.g WaA63, as used in German and German controled factories as a production QC mark.
If the number 283 is supposed to be an inspectors number it is undocumentated AFAIK and have never encountered an inspectors number done with individual punches as allready mentioned.
As for what is inside the wreath underneath the eagle I haven't got a clue but the best image I have tinkered with to get a clearer view is as a negative.
I'm curious as to what the 'comma' type marks are on the wood going against the grain,are they typical of a timber type , sanding or insect damage ? Has this any bearing as to whether they are under the stamp ?

ATB Kevin

jrhead75
08-27-2010, 03:20 PM
There certainly isn't any question at all that the Germans used captured weapons and equipment...they did without a doubt. But literally every marked piece I've seen that was considered genuine by collectors of such things had been marked very discreetly with nothing more than the occasional waffenampt inspection stamp and possibly a letter or two...often obscure enough in meaning to cause debate in their own right. More often than not, they aren't marked at all.

Not too long ago, I lucked into a pretty good "closet cache" when an old friend of mine was given a bunch of things by his father in law, a former combat engineer with the US 7th Army (IIRC). He'd fought through southern France and into Austria, and "liberated" a small pile of rifles that they took from the survivors of a Volkssturm unit that had been defending a building of some sort. I ended up with most of the firearms (German, French, Italian, Belgian, & Czech), and the only indication of German use I could find on any of them was one tiny waffenamt on the CZ-27 (probably produced under German occupation), and what appears to be an old '88 Mauser sling on a Carcano 91/38.

It's been nearly 25 years since I've dealt with any 3rd Reich stuff, but even I can say without any doubt that somebody messed up what appears to be a very nice rifle with fake German markings. I'll gladly change my tune if even one "known" experienced German collector blesses it, and am in fact curious as to why the OP didn't take this to any of the German boards (or did I miss something).

bearhunter
08-27-2010, 05:26 PM
The Germans, issued captured Mosins, back to captured Russian troops that had the choice of starving to death, in the camps, or being sent back to the Russians, unarmed, where they would be executed out of hand, as per Stalin's orders, pertaining to individuals that surrendered. At least, fighting for the axis powers gave them a few meals and a slim chance of survival, rathr than none.

There were also, Finn vollunteer units, fighting with the Axis troops that carried Mosins. Your guess is as good as mine, as to how many were captures and where they came from.

As was mentioned before, International Firearms, brought in a whole whack of M44 and M38 Carbines, bearing Axis stamps. The lot referred to here, supposedly came in in 1993-94. I have a 94 catalogue and it doesn't show the capture marked rifles. I seem to remember them coming in much earlier, more like the early eighties.

Never say never, when it comes to milsurps. Peter L, that is a comment you use quite often, is it not?

I know a couple of fellows, that served on the Russian front, from 1943 - 1945. One is Russian and one is German. They know and like each other very much. They respect the hell out of each other as only opposing combatants really can. They were great fishing and hunting partners, until the Russian had his stroke. The German isn't really mobile any more either. I talked to him recently about the discussion here. He just laughed at how foolish it all is.

He remembered the ragged and starved captured Russian troops being sent into battle, alongside the Wermacht troops. He was both POed, because they had just been fed a hot meal of porridge and he hadn't, he was scared they would turn on him and he felt very sorry for them, all at the same time. They were huge eyed, frightened skeletons, many with only rags on their feet for shoes. They were sent ahead of the Wermacht, to get the Soviets to use up their ammunition, which was usually in short supply. Most of them didn't even raise their rifles to fight back. The one thing they all had in common, they died hard and well. That was his description, not mine.

Both the old soldiers, hated the war. Hated the fighting and by the end of the war, both knew it was for nothing. Just a group of Sociopaths in charge of two very powerful fighting machines, delving as deeply as possible into their insane fantasies, all the while taking the "sane" people along for the ride and infecting them with their insanity. It really isn't that hard to envision.

Uli, commented on the Lee Enfield, with the police stamp. He just said, there is nothing more near sighted and anal than a police weapons tech. They stamped or painted everything they ever used. At the very least, there would be some kind of mark, even their boots and pencils. That really looks to be a municipal police stamp.

The axis stamps on the M44 and M38 rifles, could have been put on by the captured Russians, on the orders of the Germans, before they were pushed onto the battlefield. There are so many scenarios at play here as to make most of these discussions futile. IMHO, those rifles have a better chance of being legitimate than not.

jrhead75
08-27-2010, 06:08 PM
The axis stamps on the M44 and M38 rifles, could have been put on by the captured Russians, on the orders of the Germans, before they were pushed onto the battlefield.

Are you seriously suggesting this about the 1945 dated M44 illustrated in this thread?

Brian Dick
08-27-2010, 06:14 PM
I remember a story from Graham Johnson who had CanAm Enterprises in Ontario for many years. He had a 1" Canadian "C-Broad Arrow" electric brand used for marking shipping crates and such during war production which now resides here in my office. He told me that back in the 60's he took one P-14 from a pile and branded one stock. The damned thing must have sold several times over the course of the show where it was stuck in the middle of the pile and the story got better with each change of hands. Caveat Emptor.

bearhunter
08-27-2010, 06:25 PM
I'm not suggesting anything one way or the other. I'm saying never say never. It can and does, come back to haunt you. The scenario, I envisioned above, is more than possible, that particular rifle, sat in storage since 1947, it has been documented and proven to that time period. It isn't a one off, by a long shot. There were literally thousands of those carbines, bearing those marks, sold in Canada on at least two separate occasions. Back when FACs, were pushed, ungently, into law, there were several turn in drives, for unwanted weapons in Canada. I was surprised at how many were turned in. Thousands of bubbaed and whole Lee Enfields, Mausers and above all Mosins. Almost all were junk grade or lower. Many, that looked decent had rusty bores, from shooting corrosive primed ammunition.
Later, when they decided to push the long gun registry on Canadians, they had several more pogroms and amnesties to turn in unwanted firearms, for those that didn't want to get a license. Again, Mosins were prolific by their numbers. Most, again, were beaters. The ammunition, wasn't in plentiful supply and a lot of people just got rid of them, the easiest way possible. Turning them in.

Brian, I respect your opinion but you are talking about a "one off, rifle". There really were thousands of the above mentioned Mosins sold in Canada, at bargain basement prices. If I recall, there was a discount for quantity.
I saw several Mosins with those stamps in the piles. After all, the first batch, sold for under $30. International also sold the ammunition. I won't say there aren't unscrupulous individuals out there but I think you fellows are getting frighted by your own shadows.

jrhead75
08-27-2010, 10:00 PM
I won't say there aren't unscrupulous individuals out there but I think you fellows are getting frighted by your own shadows.
And with sincere respect I would suggest that when the scenario of German troops handing a Mosin and a Waffenamt stamp to Russian prisoners before sending them into battle seems even a remotely likely one to explain away unlikely markings on a milsurp rifle, it's probably a good idea to avoid shadows (or reaching for one's wallet) for a while.

Bottom line...I guess everyone's got the inalienable right to hand their money over to whomever they choose.

bearhunter
08-28-2010, 12:49 AM
jrhead75, can you think of a quicker way to indentify the good ones from the bad ones? Quick, easy and identifiable to both sides. None of the Russians, with the axis marked weapons, would be able to just mingle in with the rest of the gang, unless they managed to capture another rifle.

villiers
08-28-2010, 02:54 AM
Just another item of useless information:-

Germany was only in a position to re-introduced its law governing ballistic testing of weapons (Beschussprüfungs Gesetz) in 1951. Up until then, the few weapons permitted for use by police, other law enforcement agencies and para military units controlled by the Allies were limited to surplus and redundant Allied items that were accepted for use by German armourers and STAMPED. As no new stamps had been issued, the old Nazi Wehrmacht stamps with more or less defaced Nazi emblems were generally used until new stamps were devised some time after 1951.
PS
Most were later sold on the open market and the leading German publication DWJ regularly contains articles on the subject of the various stamps to be found on these weapons.

jrhead75
08-28-2010, 03:33 AM
jrhead75, can you think of a quicker way to indentify the good ones from the bad ones? Quick, easy and identifiable to both sides. None of the Russians, with the axis marked weapons, would be able to just mingle in with the rest of the gang, unless they managed to capture another rifle.

How would a Russian soldier carrying a pickup MP-40 or K98 mingle with the rest of his "gang"? It happened all the time. I doubt very seriously that anyone was checking stamps on Mosins at the time.

Considering the confusion of a battlefield, and the ease of losing one's weapon to malfunction or damage, checking stamps on rifles doesn't seem to be a very efficient way of discerning allegiance.

Peter Laidler
08-28-2010, 05:41 AM
Just a minute chaps.................... Aren't we getting extremely side tracked here? The point of the thread is the captured and later FTR'd Nazi marked No1 rifle. The simple facts are some think the marks are genuine but can't say for certain why they feel that way. Many others say it's a load of old tosh and say with a degree of certainty why they feel that way

finloq
08-28-2010, 06:43 AM
Just a minute chaps.................... Aren't we getting extremely side tracked here? The point of the thread is the captured and later FTR'd Nazi marked No1 rifle. The simple facts are some think the marks are genuine but can't say for certain why they feel that way. Many others say it's a load of old tosh and say with a degree of certainty why they feel that way

"Yes Virginia, there is a Santa Claus."
You are right, Peter.

bigduke6
08-28-2010, 07:27 AM
As I,m having a bit of a clearout and taking some pics for another thread, thought I,d put these up from some Mauser parts to compare, stamps on the magazine followers from a CZ and a FN mauser, one thing is clear the numbers are individualy stamped.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/DSCF3197-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/DSCF3199-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/DSCF3201-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/DSCF3206-1.jpg

Peter Laidler
08-28-2010, 08:27 AM
See what you mean Big Duke, but we're talking about a backwards facing eagle thinggy, cack handed swastika whatsit and nazi marks that have remained on a FTR'd rifle during the factory THOROUGH repair system in 1952.

I don't know about the true importance of a swastica symbol in the realms of the nazi era and not being an ardent follower of the royalist cause, I should imagine that it was held in the same sort of 'esteem' as the Coat of Arms or the Crown symbol or, say, the union jack flag. And if that was misused or defaced then people would feel a bit miffed or in England. '.........somewhat peeved!'

Kev G
08-28-2010, 08:40 AM
I'm not saying I have never seen a series of numbers made up from individual number punches to make up a numerical sequence.
I was infering that I had never seen a Waffenampt inspectors mark that was used that included the inspectors number made up from individual punches.(prefixed by WaA)
I'm by no means a German markings expert :lol: but isn't a waffenampt only a waffenampt if it is marked WaA ?
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/WaA63-1.jpg

ATB Kevin

bearhunter
08-28-2010, 09:09 AM
Peter, a description of the mark and a diagram, were submitted on one of these pages, by Son, showing the mark, to be legitimate and a police mark. All in line, with legitimising the marks on the OPs rifle. I'm really not an expert on any of this stuff but I've seen things in other countries that would drive us all to distraction. I know better, as do you, than to scream FAKE. There is just to much doumentation and history, behind the seller and the rifle, originally in question. There have been other facts, pointed out, like the type of wood the butt stock was made from, that would have been changed to coach wood during an FTR. Just to many things pointing to the authenticity of the rifle and this thread, hasn't proven anything one way or the other. I will agree to disagree and respect others opinions. I've learned a lot from this thread and there is a lot of knowledge and value here. I've also learned we have become far to suspicious and may have misrepresented, what could easily be a legitmate part of a rifles history, as well as devalued it significantly.

Claven2
08-28-2010, 09:17 AM
As I,m having a bit of a clearout and taking some pics for another thread, thought I,d put these up from some Mauser parts to compare, stamps on the magazine followers from a CZ and a FN mauser, one thing is clear the numbers are individualy stamped.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/DSCF3197-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/DSCF3199-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/DSCF3201-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/DSCF3206-1.jpg

'fraid not mate. Those stamps are NOT WaA inspection numbers, they are SERIAL numbers (the last two digits). Nearly all K98k followers have those until almost the end of the war. If those ones don;t match the rifles they are on, it merely indicates a mismatched part. In the case of the "49" follower, the WaA number looks to be 28. In the case of the "10" follower, the WaA mark is a tine "1" touching the eagle's claws. The other marks are a manufacturing mark and the serial number.

Claven2
08-28-2010, 09:18 AM
I'm not saying I have never seen a series of numbers made up from individual number punches to make up a numerical sequence.
I was infering that I had never seen a Waffenampt inspectors mark that was used that included the inspectors number made up from individual punches.(prefixed by WaA)
I'm by no means a German markings expert :lol: but isn't a waffenampt only a waffenampt if it is marked WaA ?
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/WaA63-1.jpg

ATB Kevin

No, some have just numbers, but they are integral to the stamp.

Claven2
08-28-2010, 09:21 AM
by Son, showing the mark, to be legitimate and a police mark.

Please point that post out - I think we all missed any post by Son proving the mark is legitimate??? I saw a post by him saying some police eagles face right, but that is far from proving that mark is real. The swastika is NOT anything but a blurry cackhandled swastika with hand-stamped inspection numbers under it - which seems to not have been used on any other rifle anyone can produce.

Or am I missing something?

Also standing by to see any other example with a Nazi eagle surmounting a capture year.

bigduke6
08-28-2010, 02:02 PM
Think I should of said a bit more when i posted the pics, First I have to hold my hand up and and say I dont know anything regarding the WaA stamps/ marks etc, I put the pics up mainly to do with the eagle and to show original stamps (as far as i know).

If we go back to the page 1 of the thread it shows a pic of an eagle on the action, was trying to compare that with the ones I posted.

Peter, can understand your point regarding FTR etc, and would agree that never come from a workshop after FTR with them stamps, the one on the action stands out too proud to have been missed, even if the armourer had had a good skin full the night before.

Am no wiser on the stamps/impressions on the butt this could of been done/changed at anytime. One thing i must say is the Pics Kev G dug up of the Luftwaffe are excellent and wonder what bayonets they would of been issued with?

Brit plumber
08-28-2010, 03:39 PM
I'm not saying I have never seen a series of numbers made up from individual number punches to make up a numerical sequence.
I was infering that I had never seen a Waffenampt inspectors mark that was used that included the inspectors number made up from individual punches.(prefixed by WaA)
I'm by no means a German markings expert :lol: but isn't a waffenampt only a waffenampt if it is marked WaA ?
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/08/WaA63-1.jpg

ATB Kevin

Kev, Is that a Bren Mk1 sight drum? If it is, I'm off to check mine out!

enfield303t
08-28-2010, 03:43 PM
Let's not get too hasty in regard to saying the stampings on the No1 should be the only thing we talk about. All stampings are important as they may give more evidence to all the guns that they appear on. The post by Son on the eagle is great news for anyone with a open mind. I think we should all thank Son for this important evidence that something strange was going on and not just with the No1. This thread is not going to go away quickly as some may wish due to more and more evidence showing up daily. There seems to be a bit of paranoia here if something new shows up. Just because a boisterous small group call FAKE doesn't mean it is. I think the posting by Son brings a tiny big of legitimacy to the Enfield which is still on very shaky ground and I admit that. I would like to see the gun proved legit but am encouraged that people who really want to get to the bottom of this are doing lots of research. Just think if everyone would have stopped writing the minute it was called fake much of the facts that have been divulged would not be known to all who read this thread.

Claven2
08-28-2010, 03:57 PM
At the end of the day, shy of someone being able to show another rifle with similar markings to the Enfield in question that is less suspicious overall (i.e. not a result of a post-war rebuild program where the nazi marks somehow survived), I doubt anyone will be able to DIS-prove it's a fake.

In any even, enough serious questions exist about this gun, I believe the onus is on the people who believe it is legitimate to prove it with some form of documentable evidence. So far, all the solid evidence has either had no effect or a negative effect on this rifle's claims to legitimacy. That's pretty telling in itself, but no matter what happens, I suspect several posters here will never believe it's a fake - even if someone posted that they were the one who humped the rifle and showed photos of the stamps they used to do so.

Oatmeal Savage
08-28-2010, 04:08 PM
To quote the experts on here and Gunboards "its a turd".

finloq
08-28-2010, 04:13 PM
At the end of the day, shy of someone being able to show another rifle with similar markings to the Enfield in question that is less suspicious overall (i.e. not a result of a post-war rebuild program where the nazi marks somehow survived), I doubt anyone will be able to DIS-prove it's a fake.

In any even, enough serious questions exist about this gun, I believe the onus is on the people who believe it is legitimate to prove it with some form of documentable evidence. So far, all the solid evidence has either had no effect or a negative effect on this rifle's claims to legitimacy. That's pretty telling in itself, but no matter what happens, I suspect several posters here will never believe it's a fake - even if someone posted that they were the one who humped the rifle and showed photos of the stamps they used to do so.

100% true. Some people believe what they want to believe. Perception is reality.

NOT FOR THE SQUEMISH:

I was the foreman in a murder trial, where the suspect stood over the victim (a cab driver) and shot him [a second time] in the head, because: "He was still moving!". Security camera footage, the suspects sister (who witnessed the murder) testifying against her own brother, cell phone recordings, etc.
11 of us voted guilty and 1 lady voted innocent becasue she looked at the 19 year old gang member and: "I don't belive such a nice looking boy could commit such a crime."

Sometimes truth has a difficult time overcomming desire.

jrhead75
08-28-2010, 05:34 PM
In any even, enough serious questions exist about this gun, I believe the onus is on the people who believe it is legitimate to prove it with some form of documentable evidence. So far, all the solid evidence has either had no effect or a negative effect on this rifle's claims to legitimacy. That's pretty telling in itself, but no matter what happens, I suspect several posters here will never believe it's a fake - even if someone posted that they were the one who humped the rifle and showed photos of the stamps they used to do so.
Absolutely right. There will always be enough people perfectly willing to force fit a scenario to even the most unlikely of objects...thus the humper/counterfeiter will always have a booming market.

So far, not one experienced collector/expert on WWII German weaponry has spoken out in favor of this rifle.

Not one other example of a known legit example showing anything resembling this marking scheme has turned up.

Nobody has disputed the fact that the Germans captured a lot of Allied materiel, and marked/used some of it, so documentation that they did is not really evidence of anything related to this particular rifle.

When someone brings a heretofore unknown historical object to light, the burden of proving it's authenticity lies with them. So far, nothing even closely resembling reasonable evidence has been presented on behalf of this rifle. "It could've happened this way..." does not proper evidence make.


Just because a boisterous small group call FAKE doesn't mean it is.

An "interesting" interpretation of the various debates that this rifle has triggered to say the least...

Claven2
08-28-2010, 08:48 PM
I just found the gunboards thread. Anyone know who mrfarb is? Here's a hint. If I'm not mistaken, he runs latewar.com and co-wrote the recent "Kriegsmodell" which is widely regarded as THE book on late war German weaponry. It has essentially supplanted the latter half of Backbone of the Whermacht.

Here's what he has to say as a purely German and German Capture rifle collector:


I collect rework 98k's and "beute waffen", booty weapons as the Germans called them. These include French rifles, Belgian, Czech, etc. These booty weapons usually consited of weapons used within the country they were captured, and SOME went through repair depots and were marked. One thing remains pretty consistent- German marking procedures. I'll just tell you the markings on this rifle are not consistent with any known German doctrine in regards to booty weapons or standard infantry arms. The "waffenamt" on the bottom of the stock is fantasy, and not consistent with any I have seen. My take, if you bought this thinking it was original, I'd get my money back.

villiers
08-29-2010, 10:33 AM
I just found the gunboards thread. Anyone know who mrfarb is? Here's a hint. If I'm not mistaken, he runs latewar.com and co-wrote the recent "Kriegsmodell" which is widely regarded as THE book on late war German weaponry. It has essentially supplanted the latter half of Backbone of the Whermacht.

Here's what he has to say as a purely German and German Capture rifle collector:
I collect rework 98k's and "beute waffen", booty weapons as the Germans called them. These include Frenchicon rifles, Belgian, Czechicon, etc. These booty weapons usually consited of weapons used within the country they were captured, and SOME went through repair depots and were marked. One thing remains pretty consistent- German marking procedures. I'll just tell you the markings on this rifle are not consistent with any known German doctrine in regards to booty weapons or standard infantry arms. The "waffenamt" on the bottom of the stock is fantasy, and not consistent with any I have seen. My take, if you bought this thinking it was original, I'd get my money back.

and:

`To quote the experts on here and Gunboards "its a turd". ´

With all due respect for the "experts" quoted above, I remain somewhat sceptical. I would look for a qualified opinion on e.g. Garands from a North American author and thus on Wehrmacht stamped Mausers from a German whose knowledge of the events during and after WWII I would expect to be more extensive and relevant (the German spelling of the author quoted above leaves much to be desired).

Having read through most of the above postings, it would seem that the Enfield could quite possibly be legitimate although there is no proof that it is. A collector would certainly need proof of verification to justify the purchase price or to make a profit on its sale.

Even if weapons with similar markings came to light, this would not be definite proof of authenticity.

But even if its commercial value is limited, it has provided the basis for fruitful discussion.

Peter Laidler
08-29-2010, 04:05 PM
Good, well thought out argument there Villers but following that, it comes back to the old adage of '..............buy the rifle and not the story'. And I'm still not convinced. But it has been a much thought provoking thread.

What has bveen interesting too is that we have had many usually silent forumers coming out with opinions. And this is a GOOD thing. In the Army we say that EVERY Officer in the meeting MUST speak his turn and make his views known.

canuck98k
08-29-2010, 04:23 PM
For me, the big kicker is when someone of Mr. Laidler's experience says this rifle would not have made it through an FTR program with all those dirty birds.

Any stories regarding how such a rifle 'could' have slipped through are just that. Stories.

It would also appear that two rifles, a Lee Enfield and an M44, have come from the same source with the same story and the same mark up.

If it looks like a fake and it quacks like a fake... well then... it's a fake.

finloq
08-29-2010, 04:34 PM
If I presented a No.4 with an painting of a lopsided bull on the stock as a Picasso original, it might be real; without proof however, it might just as well have been painted by my 6 year old cousin.
In any event, it would not have opened up such an interesting and enlightening debate. Thank you, Superbee, wherever you are.

Claven2
08-29-2010, 05:02 PM
@ villiers: If you know anyone still alive (Richard Law is dead) with more knowledge of what happened to German weaponry, their variations and markings, including the capture and volkssturm rifles than Mike Steves (mrfarb's real name) then I implore you to contact the man and have him weigh in.

As it stands, Mike is the author of the most recent and authoritative reference book in existence on this subject and he considers it to not be a legitimate capture rifle. I honestly don't know what people are expecting in terms of additional expert opinion?? It's as it Peter Laidler told someone they have a fake No.5 Sten and then that person trying to argue with him that he's wrong, or Scott Duff telling someone their Gas Trap garand is a repro and that person refusing to even consider Scott might be right.

In absence of your knowing of a more authoritative source, Mike is THE expert on this stuff.

Kev G
08-29-2010, 07:53 PM
Kev, Is that a Bren Mk1 sight drum? If it is, I'm off to check mine out!

No afriad not Chris,it's a dot coded ZB26.

atb Kevin

OxfordAndy
08-31-2010, 07:12 AM
Just to reinforce the point made above by Son......here's a picture of a Feldgendarmerie badge removed from the original owner's tunic by my father-in-law in late 1944 when the original owner "no longer had a use for it": Clearly the eagle is facing left:

20429

For comparison, here, on another of his souvenirs (SS EM Dagger), the eagle is facing right:

20430

And for avodance of any confusion, these are 100% genuine relics handed down to my son by his grandfather who took them off the original owners. He had no need or reason to fake these...they were readily available at the time and did not have the fiscal value that may be attributed to them now :D

enfield303t
08-31-2010, 10:56 AM
Thanks to Son and OxfordAndy the problem of the eagle facing the wrong way (in the opinion of many) is solved. Seeing as this part of the puzzle is solved we can hopefully find more information on the other strange markings on the Lee Enfield.

jrhead75
08-31-2010, 12:26 PM
Since the eagle in the police emblem that OxfordAndy posted is facing opposite of the ones in question on the rifle, I'm not sure what would be "solved". But no matter...the direction the eagles are facing never was the real issue here.

In the "opinion of many", things were settled when Mr. Steves weighed in. His first quote on the issue:
"I'll tell you what, that is about the most hokey stamps I've ever seen. Not real folks, someone boosted it up for profit (although not sure who would want something like this). Germans didn't put dates under eagles."

Once again...why wasn't this rifle brought up in any of the Third Reich collectors' forums (fora?)? That seems to me to be the place for this debate...although I suspect it would be a very short one there. Has there been even one experienced collector of WWII German militaria that has spoken in favor of this rifle? That's certainly where any real and relevant historical evidence on German protocol and regulation with regard to the marking of captured weapons is likely to come from.

The more appropriate issue for this board would seem to be whether or not a rifle would make it through the Australian Army's formal FTR process in the 1950s with enemy capture markings, spurious or otherwise, intact (Personally, I don't think it would have).

OxfordAndy
08-31-2010, 02:15 PM
jrhead75, I have no dog in this fight.

The point about the way in which the eagles are facing is being used as proof positive that the rifle has been faked.

The point of posting the pics above is to prove that there is no "right or wrong" way for the eagle to face. Party and military emblems, or even different parts of the German armed forces, had variations on the eagle emblem.

Take a look at any wartime pictures on a wide range of subject matters covering emblems on buildings to uniforms and decorations, you will find the same thing.

There maybe other reasons to question the authenticity of this rifle but to seek to use the direction of the head as "proof positive" that this is a fake seems unwise to me.

jrhead75
08-31-2010, 02:30 PM
There maybe other reasons to question the authenticity of this rifle but to seek to use the direction of the head as "proof positive" that this is a fake seems unwise to me.
I agree...that's kind of my point. The issue of the "wrong-way facing eagle" was a bit of a red herring all around. It all started with one poster over on Gunboards saying something to the effect of "Isn't the eagle supposed to be facing the other way?" and got carried on from there.

The direction the eagle's facing is the least of that rifle's problems...

5thBatt
08-31-2010, 03:29 PM
Question, would eagles facing in different directions on the same weapon point more towards it being a fake than legit?
This is a true Q as i have no idea.

jrhead75
08-31-2010, 06:42 PM
I've looked through the photo collection on the CD/ROM I bought from BobinOhio (k98 collector of some note on GB), detailed photo studies of approx. 30 rifles. Several with prewar Weimar eagles, and including a couple foreign capture/make Mausers pressed into German service. I also took a good look at my own '42 BNZ closet find K98, and my copy of Law's "Backbone of the Wehrmacht". Every single eagle I've seen stamped on a rifle is looking to the viewer's left, that is...over it's own right wing. Not one is looking the other way. So I'd have to say yes...a "backward" facing eagle would at least seem to point to fakery in this context.

sprog
08-31-2010, 06:50 PM
This thread is dragging on for so long (with no indication of resolution) on so many Forii(?) that I am tempted to say that a discussion on cordite by Ed H. & GunnerSam would be a welcome relief. :rolleyes:

jrhead75
08-31-2010, 07:22 PM
Well I'll agree that this thing has grown considerably longer legs than it warrants. That said...IMO, one of the more important functions of these boards is to help the less experienced avoid spending $1000 for a $250 gun...not that there won't always be someone determined to hand over their hard earned cash to the "creative anachronism" artistes anyway.


a discussion on cordite by Ed H. & GunnerSam would be a welcome relief.
Just don't say that 3 times out loud...:ugh:

Badger
08-31-2010, 07:34 PM
Ok, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm exhausted ... :surrender:

I know now how it feels to watch a dog chase it's tail ... :lol:

Lots of great participation and comments from experts, serious collectors and the rest of us ... :dancingbanana:

So, I'm going to close this thread and leave it for posterity and future members to read, who have yet join to share in its wisdom. :thup:

Thanks to everyone for keeping it civil and not letting the inevitable "thread creep" from getting to bad ... :clap:

Regards,
Badger (Doug)