Expected accuracy with a Bren?

[gravityfan]

Does anyone know the specified or expected accuracy of a Bren, MkI/II in particular?

My iron sight shooting isn't good, but I'm wondering how much of my 4 moa is the Bren, and how much is my shooting.

From a fixed device like a Ransom Rest, what should it be capable of doing?

Cheers.

[Peter Laidler]

I'll look up the technical spec for the accuracy test but it's well outside the spec required for the rifle. Have you got the EMER handy Tankie? Or Skippy?

[skiprat]

OH if only...... I have a few Bren gun spares (labled "Bren 7.62mm") thanks to more armourers not doing their job properly and not disposing obsolete spares
.... but all my EMERs have gone to the shredder!!!!!!! as its....." all in the AESP now" how little they know..
I don't even have EMER s for the No8 rifles that I need to maintain...
"THEY" KNOW BEST

[Peter Laidler]

I know just what you mean Skippy........ I'll have a look in the library copy. If you can find a No8 EMER it'd be useful

[tankhunter]

Pete, The user handbook states for the Bren: Range 25 Yds: MPI in Relation to Point of Aim: Sights set at 200 Yds: 1.1/4" above & & 1" right. & fall of shot NOT Exceeding 1/2" Below.
Range: 100 Yds: MPI in Relasion to point of Aim: Sights set at 200 Yds: 5 Inches Above & 1" to the Right, Ideal. & fall of shot NOT exceeding 2" above or below.

There were eight sizes of foresight available for the adjustment of vertical erroes. Each size gives a theorectical alteration of 3.48 or approx 3.5" at 100 Yds on a MKI & II. A MKIII would be 4.5".
at 25 Yds A MKI & II it would be 0.87 or Approx 7/8ths of an inch. A MK III would give you approx 1".

There were eight sizes of foresight blades available. .46, .43, .40, .37, .34, .31, .28, .25.

[gravityfan]

100 Yds: fall of shot NOT exceeding 2" above or below.

So that is about 4 moa, then? It doesn't mention an acceptable width of the pattern, might one assume width=height?

Thanks indeed for the foresight info. Very useful.

Maybe I'll re-mount the home-made dovetail picatinny mount and try with a scope to reduce my aiming errors.

Cheers.

[Peter Laidler]

You might be interested to know that the very last version of the Bren, The L4A9 had a dovetail mount on the left hand side so that it could take the night sight. Used in the watchtowers and along the borders in Northern Ireland. Not too successful because the heavy sight would tip the Bren/L4 over to the left and fall on the actual night sight, cracking the OG lens (£250 or so.....) and shearing off the screws that hold the inverter housing cover in place. The IIW sight bracket dovetail effectively meant that the Bren had gone full circle

How is your picatinny rail mounted?

[tankhunter]

[QUOTE=Peter Laidler;153657]You might be interested to know that the very last version of the Bren, The L4A9 had a dovetail mount on the left hand side so that it could take the night sight. Used in the watchtowers and along the borders in Northern Ireland. Not too successful because the heavy sight would tip the Bren/L4 over to the left and fall on the actual night sight, cracking the OG lens (£250 or so.....) and shearing off the screws that hold the inverter housing cover in place. The IIW sight bracket dovetail effectively meant that the Bren had gone full circle

And that Bracket looks VERY similar to the one on the L7A2 (GPMG). BUT, it is made from steel, & the L7 variant is Aliuminium! (Just for Bren Spotters!) LOL!

[Kev G]

The SS20 night sight is expensive but available,if you have an L4A9 to put it on.
How widely issued (if at all ?) were the AAAD sights cos I'll been looking for donkeys years and never had a sniff !

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/01/AAAD-1.jpg

ATB Kevin

[skiprat]

there was a AAAD sight (as above) on evilBay last month, it went for £51 I just missed it ..but it did go to a good home

[Peter Laidler]

Interesting KG. I've seen them things but just assumed that they were for the L7/GPMG. I never thought of the Bren/L4 fitting. A 30 round mag and Bren isn't my idea of taking on aircraft. We have a couple of L4A9's

[Kev G]

there was a AAAD sight (as above) on evilBay last month, it went for £51 I just missed it ..but it did go to a good home

B****** ! what was it listed under ? If you know the home it went to would there be any chance of getting some pics please ?

I don't usually mention things until I have got one but with this item I had given up on.......oh well :-(

ATB Kevin

---------- Post added at 11:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 PM ----------

Serious question - how many rounds could realisticaly have been aimed at say a low flying Skyhawk with a faster rate of fire GPMG and an L4 ?

atb Kevin

[Peter Laidler]

I went on an AAAD course and an Air gunners course at Manorbier in Wales. It was two weeks. The first week at Barton Stacey the last week, live firing. We were shooting at a drogue towed by a Meteor from GPMG and .30" Browning on the AAAD course and fired thousands upoin thousands of rounds and recon we got through just less than a belt, say, 200 per pass of the drone. Many tried to hit the Meteor but all failed. As I recall, the guns were loaded and ready but you couldn't step up to the gun until the Meteor had passed and the whistle blew, then all 20 MG's opened up until the whistle blew again and youi stopped firing when, presumably the drogue was out of range. The 40mm's carried on firing for a bit longer.

The air gunners course was similar but fired from inside the doors of a hovering helicopter at a drone, out to sea.

At the end of the course they told us how many hits on the drogue we'd achieved. Sadly, although much beer was consumed and maybe a couple of hundred thousand round of .300" and 7.62mm ball and tracer was fired, no hits were achieved. But good fun was had and when you're 23 or so, that's all that counted. There was a bit of a sequel to this. Many years later, in the early 80's, not long after I'd been Commissioned, I had to act as the enemy in some big exercise in Germany. As we (the REME) usually had L4 Brens, this time I was to use a GPMG. A Parachute Regiment Sergeant was giving us the once over with the GPMG, saw me looking a bit non plussed (and probably complacently bored.....) looked over and in a condecending way asked '......does Sir know about these....... or fired one before?' I didn't answer but nodded. I told him afterwards and we both had a good laugh! Fired one before..................... Fired one before..........., fired hundreds of thousands of rounds through them And of you counted the .30" Browning through the tank machine guns.............................

We did a lot of aircraft recognition and a test etc etc to justify our existences but while I recognised a BEAR, a HOOK and a HIND, I never saw one unless they looked like a big flourescent orangy yellow drogue whizzing past 400 yards in front of me.

The lessons were - so said - taken from the lessons learned by the VC and NVA in SVn who mercilessly opened fire with all they had on ANY aircraft. On the basis that the VC didn't have any air support (thank christ.....) and they often scored hits that could hole fast jets enough to peel the skins back which caused even greater damage.

On that note, who was the USMC Phantom pilot who flew from Tan Son Nut that we left behind on the other forum. Anyone remember him? I think he was the part owner of a Mustang.

Where were we now.................. Oh yes, accuracy of the Bren

[skiprat]

I was the attached armourer to an air defence Battery with the Royal Artillery and was on the firing point while the students fired the 8 GPMGs at the little remote controlled aircraft. 30 round bursts 1 in 1 tracer. (had a few goes myself).
we had a couple of units turn up with L4's.... after de linking (the GPMG ammo) and then loading their ammunition into their magazines it was a one magazine burst of fully automatic fire......:super:
the gun was fired from the hip with the weight of the gun supported with the sling over the shoulder. with the left hand holding either the bypod legs or the carrying handle folded out to the side.
The "gun number two" had to be quick with the mag changes, and direct where the gunner was to aim (looking at the path of the tracer) he also had to hold the shoulder of the gunner to stop him walking backward (with the recoil)
I cannot remember having to repair any of the L4's but many of the GPMGs blew off their gas regulators or lost their extractors.

accuracy of the bren....... we did hit the sky

[Peter Laidler]

You hit the sky, we hit the sky..........., that's accurate enough isn't it Skippy? As far as I was concerned, I didn't have to hit his aeroplane, he just had to run into my bullets! And anything flying West at below 1,000 feet was fair game

[skiprat]

yes but it was FUN ...FUN, I tell you ...... where has the fun gone ....... (all at Warminster by the sounds of it,,,,)

[Peter Laidler]

You cannot believe how tight and controlled range days are........ I used to take my son when he was a Cadet at school (even when he wasn't I have to admit too...) and he'd shoot all manner of stuff that we were trialling, from rifle grenades (UGL's) to, well, everything. Under the eye of the small arms school of course but now it's all 'current and competent' and whatever this that and the other. Even the impromptu competitions at the end of the day to use up the ammo have gone now.

Where have the good times gone...............

Anyway forumers of the world. What was the name of the USMC Phantom pilot again................................

[tankhunter]

Where indeed has all the FUN gone? It all went out the Window with the bean Counters & That Crap agency. 'Health & Safety'!!! All about, 'If you follow the rule book to the letter, your umbrella is up. And your Bomb proof becuae you have complied!' Common sense is not allowed. And blind automitons are the order of the day! Fun!.....That a Dirty word in the OFFICIAL British Army (PLC) !........