New Argy 91

[Calfed]

I've always had a soft spot for the slim, elegant Argentine M1891 Mauser.

I glommed this tonight at an on-line auction.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/02/Argymauser1-1.jpg

description was a bit spare..
1891 Mauser rifle. 7.65 cal. SN:A5181. Appears to have matching #s, unknown hand guard, polished top of receiver.

Better pics and description when it arrives

[Patrick Chadwick]

The handguard looks like it was "recycled" from an 1891 Argentine cavalry or engineers carbine.
With a bit of patience you should be able to find the right handguard, which has the same style - two rings for spring wire clips - but is, of course, somewhat longer.

:wave:

[fishn861]

Nice looking rifle. I too like the 91 argy. I passed on a complete matching lowe at a Saturday flea mkt for 150$ 2 years ago. I recently picked up one with the barrel cut to 23" and stock cut to just infront of the barrel band. Havent shot mine yet. Enjoy your rifle. fishn

[Calfed]

The handguard looks like it was "recycled" from an 1891 Argentine cavalry or engineers carbine.
With a bit of patience you should be able to find the right handguard, which has the same style - two rings for spring wire clips - but is, of course, somewhat longer.

:wave:

Thanks, Patrick

I've found a source for the longer handguards but am trying to resolve which is correct. I've seen some information that indicate that for the early 1891 Mausers, rifle or carbine, the short handguard is correct. Apparently the handguard was lengthened for later series. This rifle is an "A" series, which I presume makes it a fairly early manufacture.

---------- Post added at 11:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:16 AM ----------


Nice looking rifle. I too like the 91 argy. I passed on a complete matching lowe at a Saturday flea mkt for 150$ 2 years ago. I recently picked up one with the barrel cut to 23" and stock cut to just infront of the barrel band. Havent shot mine yet. Enjoy your rifle. fishn

Thanks fishn.

I just glommed a sported 1891 Argy that was paired with a Finnish Mosin M28 as part of a "two-fer" auction lot. I was planning on selling the sported Argy, but am not sure what they go for these days.

Here's a pic of the "two-fer" lot
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/02/M28finn1-1.jpg

Any thoughts about sported Argy 91 values, in light of your recent purchase, would be welcome.

Steve

[Patrick Chadwick]

I've seen some information that indicate that for the early 1891 Mausers, rifle or carbine, the short handguard is correct.

I was not aware of that, but looking again and comparing the handguard carefully with my Argentine "baby" Mauser, your information is obviously correct - there is more wood in front of the front wire than on the carbine. I would be grateful if you would cite the source of that information - Ball and Olson both show only 1891s with a handguard that reaches up to the barrel band.

Patrick
:wave:

[Calfed]

I was not aware of that, but looking again and comparing the handguard carefully with my Argentine "baby" Mauser, your information is obviously correct - there is more wood in front of the front wire than on the carbine. I would be grateful if you would cite the source of that information - Ball and Olson both show only 1891s with a handguard that reaches up to the barrel band.

Patrick
:wave:

I ran across this information from Colin Webster's Argentine Mauser book:

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/02/Argentinemauserhandguard-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/02/Argentinemauserhandguarda-1.jpg

Credit to "beanstrung", who posted the above here:
Argentine Model 1891 - Proper Bolt and Stock Configuration? (http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?134587-Argentine-Model-1891-Proper-Bolt-and-Stock-Configuration)


I'm not familiar with Webster's book, but it looks like it might be interesting for the Argentine Mauser aficionado.

[Patrick Chadwick]

I have seen the book in a catalog, but the price here is steep. Ah well! Another one for the "must have one day" list.

:wave:

[Calfed]

I did a little checking and apparently Argentine Mauser Rifles 1871-1959 is to Argentine Mausers what Crown Jewels is to Swedish Mausers

[Jim]

My Argy seems to have one foot in early and another in the late. I have the early model hand guard, with a late model bolt shroud. The rifle is all matching right down to the cleaning rod.
The hand guard was attached with a couple of brads when I got it. I was fortunate in being able to separate it w/out doing much damage. The wire slots in the stock match those in the hand guard btw.

Mine is an "M" series rifle. I know the handguard is out of position. I did not have it fastened when I took the pics and I hadn't noticed it had moved.
21040 21041 21042

[fishn861]

[quote=Calfed;162534]Any thoughts about sported Argy 91 values, in light of your recent purchase, would be welcome.

Steve[/quote)
Steve I got mine for $140 hope this helps

[fishn861]

Does anyone know where to get headspace gauges for one of these? Thanks fishn

[Patrick Chadwick]

My Argy seems to have one foot in early and another in the late. I have the early model hand guard, with a late model bolt shroud. The rifle is all matching right down to the cleaning rod.

(My bold marking)

That seems to confirm my hypothesis that the factory was using up component stocks. Like I said before, in different terms, the real manufacturing world is about economics and practicality, and not about what will be regarded as "correct" by collectors more than a century later!

:wave:

[Calfed]

Mine is an "M" series rifle. I know the handguard is out of position. I did not have it fastened when I took the pics and I hadn't noticed it had moved.


That is a fine looking Argy, Jim. Have you shot it much?

---------- Post added at 06:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 AM ----------



Steve I got mine for $140 hope this helps

Thanks, fisn

---------- Post added at 06:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 AM ----------


Does anyone know where to get headspace gauges for one of these? Thanks fishn

I had Pacific Tool and Gauge make me a field gauge in 7.65 x 53 a few years back. It wasn't cheap (about $50-$60), but I think they may be charging less to subsequent customers after making up the first one.

[fishn861]

Thank you. I will try and contact them. I contacted Forster and they said they could not help me. I have'nt contacted Clymer yet.

[fishn861]

That is a fine looking Argy, Jim. Have you shot it much?

---------- Post added at 06:09 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:07 AM ----------



Thanks, fisn

---------- Post added at 06:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 AM ----------



I had Pacific Tool and Gauge make me a field gauge in 7.65 x 53 a few years back. It wasn't cheap (about $50-$60), but I think they may be charging less to subsequent customers after making up the first one.

Thanks again. I just ordered my Gauges from Pacific Tool $27.00 each plus $5.00 shipping. They were very helpful.

[Calfed]

PTG is a good outfit. I'm sure you will be happy with your gauges.

[Calfed]

The new rifles arrived today, including the 91 Argy, and I am delighted. All of them are nice, including the Argy:

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/03/Argy18910011-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/03/Argy18910031-1.jpg

Nice muted tiger striping over the whole stock and matching numbers, including the cleaning rod
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/03/Argy18910051-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/03/Argy18910041-1.jpg

Bore is bright and the bluing is almost perfect, except where the crest was removed :x
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/03/Argy18910161-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/03/Argy18910201-1.jpg

[Patrick Chadwick]

My, that is a really pretty stock! Such a pity the crest was removed.

:wave:

[Calfed]

My, that is a really pretty stock! Such a pity the crest was removed.

:wave:

Yep. I've not seen a long rifle M91 Argy with an intact crest. I have seen a few of the carbines with the crest intact, however.

[Calif-Steve]

i think early-on Argentine law mandated the removal of the crest. Most of the latter sales of the M98's will have the crest. I did see quite a few of the M98's in Argentina 15(?) years ago when there on vacation.

[DaveN]

Pardon my ignorance, but what crest? And Why was it removed? And by whom?

[Patrick Chadwick]

Pardon my ignorance, but what crest? And Why was it removed? And by whom?

Well what you call it - crest, coat of arms, emblem, insignia, badge or whatever, is a matter of nit-picking definition for connoisseurs of heraldry. It is the decorative looking bit that is roll-stamped onto the barrel ring of many South American Mausers (and a lot of others). If you get a copy of "Mauer Military Rifle Markings" by Trence Lapin, you will find quite a gallery of these markings. The Argentinian one shows two hands clasped together around a staff on top of which is a Phrygian cap (think French revolutionary style) within a wreath surmounted by a rising sun. Don't ask me to explain the iconography of it all - I haven't a clue!

In the last photo of Calfed's post you can see that the barrel ring is almost as bright as the bolt - the ring has been scrubbed to remove the national symbols.
On the various parts you can see little marks that are puzzling - until you know that they are the clasped hands from the national crest (or whatever it is correctly termed...)

As to who/when/why - for that, there is a very fine book all about Argentine Mausers, which unfortunately would cost me as much as a rifle - so I haven*t got one (yet!). Maybe someone who has can answer that part of your question. But I believe that at one time, Argentine law required the national emblem to be removed if the rifle was sold out of service.

It is a pity that a fine rifle has been spoilt by removal of the crest. Some people with more money, space, and friendlier gun control laws collect Mausers from different countries, just for the crests, like others collect stamps (of the paper kind). They can be really attractive.

Patrick
:wave:

[Calfed]

I have a number of M1909 Argentine Mausers that still have the crest on them. This crest is the same one that was originally on M91 Argentine Mausers. All of my '09 Mausers still nave the crest and I have never seen an '09 with the crest ground off.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/07/09Argy40111-1.jpg