How to date a P14 Rifle?

[m4a3sherman]

Hello all- I am not a P14/M1917 collector by any means (I am a Mauser guy!). However, I do have a P14 Rifle that I had always assumed went through Weedon repair only I cannot find the cartouche that indicates which company so I got to wondering more about the rifle itself. Apart from the marking, which may have simply worn off, I am curious of the date of manufacture. I know that Oldguns.net has a database but it seems to only be for M1917's which would be great if I still had mine. So, is there any way or database that one could use to determine when his P14 was made?

Thanks!

[vintage hunter]

Look on the left side of the knox form under the handgard. If the barrel was replaced during the rebuild it won't have a mfg date instead it will have the date of the rebuild. IIRC. Strangly enough, all I've seen or owned that still had their original barrels were dated '16 and were all Eddy's.

[m4a3sherman]

ah! excellent thanks! I just pulled off the HG and it had what looks like a poorly stamped '27 so, a 1927 barrel on it. That's strange to me, that it has a rebarrel date during the inter-war period and so far from either conflict. Either way, I suppose that means there's not really a way to date the receiver?

[vintage hunter]

Who made it?

[m4a3sherman]

The rifle is an Eddystone (ERA), 6 digit serial starting with a 683.

[vintage hunter]

Mine's an Eddy with 6 digit ser.# 604xx. I still has it's original 1916 dated barrel. The numbers are close enough together to assume yours was made in 1916 too, but , you know what they say bout assumptions.:madsmile:

[m4a3sherman]

Fair enough about the assumptions but I am satisfied with 1916 or 1917, it's close enough... Unless! Your rifle has a replacement barrel on it from excessive use and is actually a bit older.... Curse a historian's curiosity!

[vintage hunter]

Yeah, I thought of that too, but, it's all matching and the font is identical on all the #'s. It still has it's volley sights as well so I don't think it ever went through a rebuild. Does yours have a one or two piece handgard? Mine's a one piece and has 4 equally spaced slots bout 2 1/2'' x 1/4'' milled right down the center. I've yet to find out why they're there.

[m4a3sherman]

Mine is a two piece; and that is strange- Northcape's British Enfields Volume 4 by Charles Stratton makes no mention of a one piece handguard but I do not doubt the existence of one; I have seen far stranger things on Brit rifles... perhaps it is an Indian replacement?

[Patrick Chadwick]

I think we can narrow down the date a bit more.

According to Stratton:
Production began January 1916.
First deliveries May 1916.
May 1917*: close to end of production. 1.1 million P14s built. The British had over-ordered and the contracts were terminated.

Ferris give precise dates for the last rifles from the 3 manufacturers: Eddystone June 1st 1917, Winchester June 28 1917, Remington July 21 19i7. Any date markings later than these must be from rebuilding.
December 1916: approval of new bolt with longer locking lug. Rifles fitted with the new bolt have an asterick added to the designation. i.e. Mk 1*E / Mk 1*R / Mk1*W.
As the markings may be so worn as to be unidentifiable, simply measure the left locking lug (the one with the ejector slot).
On Mk 1 rifles this is 0.625" long. On Mk1* rifles it was lengthened by 0.1", so the lug is 0.725" long. These bolts also bear the * marking. It is a very good idea to check this in any case, as a first version bolt will fit in a * model, but the left lug will not be bearing - and single-lug locking is not a good idea!
Since an approved change from December 1916 will have taken some time to work through production into delivered rifles, it is a pretty good approximation to say: MK1 = 1916, Mk 1* = 1917.

Patrick
:wave:

[m4a3sherman]

Hello Patrick, i see that like me, you get around on these forums! Thanks for the continually useful and educating posts. Now to business; mine has the asterisk on the top of the chamber and on the bolt extractor. I know this may be incorrect, but I had always been told that the asterisk was indeed denoting of a lengthened and strengthened bolt but that it had been a sort of conversion that most rifles underwent. I have only seen a precious few without the stamping and they seem to sell for very high. Perhaps you could shed some light on this? Additionally, the receiver on my P14 has a two stamped just a few centimeters above the asterisk; any idea of its meaning? Additionally, Though mine has gone through Weedon repair, I am restoring it to WWI configuration (I just love volley sights) as it does not have the stock neck cartouche (probably faded away) and one can't readily check the barrel date. The replacement volley sights are supposed to arrive today so perhaps I'll put pictures up once I install them and get her going.

[vintage hunter]

I made a mistake, mine has a 5 digit serial number, 60405, and the left bolt lug measures .625''. , still has the volley sights and a mysterious 1 pc handgard. Until recently my interest in milsurp rifles was shooting and hunting with them so I was satisfied with just knowing who made it and when. At one time in the early 90's I had 4 P14's, all Eddy's. In light of Patricks and m4a3sherman's posts I guess I was lucky to have kept the one I have left, I have it simply because it had the best bore of the lot. It's all matching, except rear sight, and has all Eddystone parts. This is pure sreculation on my part but judging by the ser. # it's possible it was among the first batch to be sent over. Patrick, 'Sherm, any thoughts?

[Patrick Chadwick]

Additionally, the receiver on my P14 has a two stamped just a few centimeters above the asterisk


No idea about that at the moment. Pictures please! - I am at present puzzled by what you mean by "a few centimeters above the asterisk"

I do not know, but I find it plausible, that any Mk 1 rifles that were pulled in for overhaul or "Weedoning" would have been upgraded to the* configuration at the same time.

A one-piece handguard may be an emergency repair using something adpted from another rifle. Impossible to even guess without pics of the outside and the inside (rivet holes etc may provide clues).

But a P14 Mk 1 (no star) that has kept its volley sight is indeed a comparative rarity. Assuming, for lack of precise information, a regular production (approx 1.2 million rifles in 18 months, half of them from Eddystone), then the number would indeed suggest the first or second month of production. As to the delivery batches - quien sabe?

Patrick
:wave:

[m4a3sherman]

Hello, I will indeed post pictures once I get home this evening from my war-gaming event. My friend in real life and on here, Sht_lee is an enfield collector and the more we discussed the rifle in question at work today, he seems to think that based on one of Skinnerton's books (there are so many to keep up with, but Sht_lee has them all so I just go with it) all of the barrel's produced for the P14's were produced during the initial run. Beyond that, my '27 dated barrel is marked to eddystone which would make the 1927 date an inspection date rather than manufacture date. Add to this, the P14 I received today to pull parts from is also stamped '27 on the barrel and based on the serial number, is earlier production than mine. I've had a hard time locating any other dates on either barrel and am pretty satisfied with 1916 as a general date. Strange things indeed. Anywho, I will get pictures up tonight I hope, cheers!

[m4a3sherman]

Ok, show and tell time.
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/06/f18726f3-1.jpg

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/06/10fb27f9-1.jpg

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/06/d57f34f8-1.jpg

Ok, so there is the two I am curious about- I haven't seen another with a number there but it could be a lot of things and mean nothing so, it's whatever.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Thanks for the pics. You have an Eddystone with what is known a "fat boy" stock. And I am still puzzling over the 2.

From its position and orientation it looks as if it was applied at the same time as the asterisk. Maybe some indication of who/when?

Patrick
:wave:

[vintage hunter]

If the '27 is only an inspection date, what happened to the original manufacture date? If it was'nt re-barreled should'nt it still be there? How bout post some pics of the knox form where the '27 is.

[Tom in N.J.]

I had a super "Fat Boy" stocked ERA, with long range sights, it had the number '3' stamped on the receiver. This rifle had never been Weedon repaired or updated. It now belongs to a lucky teacher in Richmond, VA.
Acording to C.S. Stratton, the '2' on the receiver on a ERA Pattn '14 indicates it has a fourth type receiver, which has to do with a change in the feed ramp.

24089

[m4a3sherman]

Ok, pictures of the bbl markings along knox form soon to come- in the mean time, check out this-

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/06/24dc3903-1.jpg

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/06/2672e827-1.jpg

This is an M1917 Bolt that has unformately had the bolt face torn asunder or otherwise destroyed- What's curious are the markings- They appear to be USMC (US Marine Corps) and a flaming bomb. I haven't been able to find any other examples; does anyone know what this is?

[vintage hunter]

The USMC is for United Shoe Machine Company, IIRC.

[m4a3sherman]

Ach! So misleading! Haha well atleast I know now. So one assumes they were a subcontractor?

[vintage hunter]

I think your assumption is correct. Whats the story on the bolt face?

[m4a3sherman]

No idea what happened to it- I picked through the huge parts bin at a local, somewhat less-than-reputable pawn shop a while back and ended up with a veritable treasure trove of parts and such for almost nothing, and I mean that. I have surplus rifle parts to guns I don't even own and some that I know are for milsurps but that I have no idea about. It was a great score and so I am now on the look out for such things. I wish it was intact as I have never seen one before and I guess they aren't super common?

[A. F Medic]

On page 2 there are some images of his P14. You will see a stamping on the breech. Sometghing like a crown, GR (Rex) crossed banners with a P underneath.

I have a P14 (Winchester W125865) that is all matching as far as I can tell with out field stripping it. Mine has the same symbols except for a BM with a circle around it. I am most interested in the meaning of the crossed banners, P and the BM. I know I could make a decent joke out of the BM.

Mine has the volley sight removed and the gradient sight was cut off. It has a "fat boy stock".. No markings on the stock disc...

[remington]

Hello all- I am not a P14/M1917 collector by any means (I am a Mauser guy!). However, I do have a P14 Rifle that I had always assumed went through Weedon repair only I cannot find the cartouche that indicates which company so I got to wondering more about the rifle itself. Apart from the marking, which may have simply worn off, I am curious of the date of manufacture. I know that Oldguns.net has a database but it seems to only be for M1917's which would be great if I still had mine. So, is there any way or database that one could use to determine when his P14 was made?

Thanks!

Are you looking for any Mausers? I have a Brazilian Mauser in 30-06 caliber with all matching numbers including the stock.

[gew98]

2701927018Here's pics of my 5 digit serialed ERA w/fatboy stock. Matchign throughout , mirror bore and can she shoot !.

[gew98]

Some more if they download here...site is problematic for me.2702927030

[gew98]

couple more.

[A square 10]

OK - show and tell -

my eddy mkI P14's volley sights

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/09/mikesslings002-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2010/09/mikesslings001-1.jpg

shes the bottom one - with her M17 sisters winchester top/remington middle ,

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2007/08/MIKESBAYONETS034-1.jpg


the bayonets and scabbords - have added a FG wwII version for the M1917 series since these photos ,

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/03/MIKESBAYONETS012-1.jpg

[reomack]

All the above VERY god information aside, the best way to date a P14, IMHO, would be to call her up and ask her out to dinner and a movie.:)