M1, LE to steer clear of?

[that was loud]

Hi all, I'm brand new to milsurp collecting and have an opportunity to get out to a gun show next month so the idea of perhaps acquiring a Garand or a SMLE is simmering in my brain right now. I have absolutely no knowledge of either rifle nor the various models (Mk.?) in the case of the Enfield, and am looking more for a nice historical shooter than an investment.

Any particular models/years/calibres to avoid?

Anything really obvious/dangerous that I should watch for?

Approximate price ranges for good condition or better specimens with appropriate goodies such as cleaning kits?


Thanks for any advice that will get me started.

[Badger]

Well, I'd start with a bolt action rifle and if you're new to milsurp collecting, probably a .303 Lee-Enfield of some sort.

They are abundant at gun shows and if you bargain, you can probably still get a nice one for $350-$450, plus ammunition is still relatively easy to find.

They are steeped in history having been through almost every war in the last 100+ years. They range in manufacture dates from the late 1800's through to the 1970's and if you want to collect them, they seem to hold their value pretty well.

Because of their scope and range of models, you can always find a lot of good research material (and on-line forums) to read about them, which is really what the hobby is all about. A sense of community sharing a common interest in something that is rare.

Mosin Nagant bolt actions are less expensive, but I've heard that ammunition is becoming an issue unless you reload. Also, in my opinion, with the exception of sniper rifles, I don't think their value goes up as much, proportianate to Enfields. I also think Enfields seem to re-sell more easily and quicker than Mosins, but that's just my own opinion.

To get a sense of numbers as to how many of each type of milsurp was manufactured, here's some data out of one of my reference books. This author promotes buying Swedish mausers as a result of the low numbers made, obviously promoting the point that they will be a better investment because of the laws of supply and demand ... ;)


Quantity Manufactured

1. ALL Swedish Mauser Production 804,000
2. M91 Russian 9,360,000
3. M91/30 Russian 17,450,000
4. US M1 Rifle 6,034,000 (approx)
5. US M1 Carbine 6,225,000
6. K98k German 11,500,000
7. No.1 MkIII British 3,000,000
8. No.4 Mk1&2 British 3,530,000

SOURCE: "Neutrality through Marksmanship"
A collector's and shooter's guide to Swedish army rifles 1867-1942 By Doug Bowser


Hope this helps... :thup:

Regards,
Badger

[that was loud]

"Because of their scope and range of models, you can always find a lot of good research material (and on-line forums) to read about them, which is really what the hobby is all about."

I'm finding that there are a lot of people on the forums (here, CGN and elsewhere) that have a very good knowledge of the service history, factories, factory rebuilds, markings etc that I am nowhere near understanding yet. The information on proof marks, armourers, manufacturers is very interesting, just a little above my head at this point.

As far as the Lee Enfields go, which models/years of manufacture have some Canadian significance? I'm off to Milarm to dig through Alan's books and hopefully find something along the lines of a "spotters guide" to help identify the various LE models.

thanks!

[Steve1973]

As far as Canadian significance, Enfield No.4 rifles that were made at the Longbranch factory here in Canada are a good place to start. You can find them sporterized and full wood, though you will obviously pay more for the full wood one. Besides this site, there are several dedicated websites and forums on the Enfield where you can do some research as well.

[sdh1911]

I got to jump in on this fella's, welcome to the sight it is truly a class act. Second, I collect milsurps pretty heavy and what these follows have told you is dead on. I have a slight prejudice for the 6.5 X 55 round shot out of the Swedish guns. It's very forgiving and "extremely" accurate. I have all the models MFG except for one (I'll Let the guys here figure it out) but if I were just getting in and didn't give much mind from which side of the pond you get your guns from, consider the Swed's they are very collectable and shootable-Just my 0.02 cents-SDH

[K31]

If you want a Lee-Enfield, buy a MkIII or III* to start your collection. They are drying up so quickly, you may not be able to afford one in a few years. Just a decade ago, you could still find the odd one for $100 or less. Look at what they sell for now! Shocking.

[bearhunter]

If I were to start collecting all over again, I think I would take the advice of an old mentor.

If you're not going to reload, buy rifles that ammunition is readily available for.

That leaves you open to the venerable 30-06Springfield, 303British and 7.62x51 (308Win)at first look.

Everything else isn't commonly available off the shelf in most smaller centers and even in the larger centers.

One of the very collectible and delightfully accurate rifles not mentioned here is the K31 Swiss, in 7.5x55. Ammunition for this rifle is almost impossible to find, so handloading is a must.

There are lots of others that are cheap and steeped in history, such as Carcanos, Arisakas, Mas36s, Krags (not cheap) etc, again unless you're lucky enough to find a shootable supply of ammunition a handloading issue only.

BE CAREFUL, It's addicting and a lot of fun as well as historically enlightening to collect milsurps.

You will also find yourself the butt of some discrimination from non milsurp shooters, that is until you take a 1908 Brazilian mauser in 7x57, with iron sights to a 100yd shoot that's open to scope sighted sporters as well and take the prises home.

I know you said you were looking for a historical shooter, I would suggest instead a representative of type shooter. Such as one of the later built Lee Enfield No4 Mk2 rifles. Usually to be found in VG to Exc condition at reasonable prices.
The above advice to try a sporterised rifle is good and a very low dollar entry point, but then again, they feel and shoot a lot differntly than a full wood rifle.

The first thing above all else, have fun, I could go on and on about directing your collecting to certain periods or types. That's totally up to you. You will make mistakes, we all have, just suck it back an learn. One thing you will find about this board and the CGN board as well, not only are the people knowledgeable but they have integrity as well. If you buy something from them, they usually stand behind their sale.
That being said, even though there are many knowledgeable people here, there are some well meaning, unknowledgeable persons here as well. Ask for a 10 day, no shoot, inspection period and money back option if you're at all unsure.

bearhunter

[Claven2]

Another option for a "first Milsurp" is to look up frontier taxidermy and order a Russian SKS. These guns are due to arrive in the next month or two, are uncharacteristically inexpensive right now, and shoot inexpensive, readily available ammunition. That way you can shoot A LOT for not much money, have a collectible rifle (DO NOT hang tacticool crap off it), and improve your shooting skills dramatically. At the end of a crate or two of ammo, you'll have a much better idea of wha you like and dislike in a rifle and where you want milsurp collecting to take you.

[happydude]

I'm going to go against the grain and advise that you get a rifle that really appeals to you.

My fist firearm was a Mosin Nagant 1891/30 that I picked up for $145 at SIR. I really wanted a Lee Enfield but I didn't want to make my first firearms purchase over the internet and the local supply of Enfields, at least at major retailers, was nil. Having nobody to guide me, I bought the Mosin because it was close enough. I like my Mosin well enough, but I like my Enfields far more for reasons that have nothing to do with the rifle's performance or ammo.

I would suggest to you that you find out what about a milsurp rifle appeals to you. Is it history, looks, country of origin, familial connection, performance, or is cost a significant factor. Giving us an idea of what you're looking for would help.

I'm not sure from what experience you come from, but I'm going to assume you own other guns. Milsurp shooting and reloading goes hand in hand out of necessity and expense. Current availability of cheap surplus ammo is limited to 7.62x39 (SKS), and 7.62x51 NATO. I highly recommend that you get involved in reloading. If this is not possible, I would suggest staying with a rifle that shoots commercially available ammo. I'm going to assume you're from Canada, at which point I'd recommend an Enfield that shoots .303, an SKS that shoots 7.62x39, a Garand that shoots 30-06, or a Mauser that shoots 6.5mm (Swedish) or 8mm (German). If you reload, and don't mind paying a premium for brass depending on the caliber, the sky's the limit.

As to buying a milsurp, CGN is pretty good but prices can vary from the obscene to steals. I have not personally bought from P&S, but Jean at P&S Militaria is very highly recommended. He's not cheap, but you'll be getting a good quality product.

Oh, and I second the 'you will make mistakes' advice. I stripped the finish on my Mosin and applied a clear coat polyurethane. Heck, when I bought Claven's NRF SMLE last fall I hadn't even heard of NRF (rumor has it they're somewhat rare).

[K31]

And don't fall for the urge to buy cheap sporterized rifles, with the hopes of restoring them. It gets expensive fast!

[that was loud]

I'm trying to lay my hands on as much reading material as I can find to see what exactly catches my eye. I have others in the safe that I would loosely term "milsurp" (SKS's, CZ858, M14's) but nothing with any real "soul" to it.

I do reload for various calibers including 30-06 and .308 so those are options.

I have seen some very nice examples of bolt action rifles from various countries but have yet to learn about their shooting performance. Ideally I'd like to be able to knock down a deer with a 50-60 yr old rifle using iron sights. I think that would be very satisfying, especially with the current obsession with the new "short magnums".

In summary, I guess I'm after a "classic milsurp" that I can appreciate viewing and using.

[happydude]

If you're lazy, you can buy a K98 that has been converted to .308 (Israel made many conversions and they can be had for the $350-$500 range. There are also some .308 conversions of Lee Enfield No. 4s around, these tend to fetch a premium of $800 or so. There are Lee Enfield No. I MK. III's in .308 (Indian) but these are harder to find. P&S Militaria has several Norwegian K98s that have been converted to 30-06. These rifles aren't cheap either, but they're in great shape.

The Swiss K31, from what I hear, shoots very well and is mighty accurate. Brass and dies can be had from TradeEx but it's not cheap. They use .308 bullets so at least that shouldn't be a concern. Would probably make a good deer rifle.

If you're looking for that classic look, the Lee Enfields might do the trick. Brass and ammo is available at pretty much every small shop around the country and .310/.311 bullets are usually available. I prefer the open sights of the No. I MK III to the peep sights of the No. 4 but that's personal preference. They can both be had from $300 to $500.

For Mosin Nagants, brass is harder to find but good quality stuff can be had, at $100 for 100 pieces last I checked, from Hirsch Precision. It's 7.62x53 but it's what you need. Bullets are standard .310/.311 (same size as the .303 Enfields). Accuracy is acceptable, maybe not the greatest but good. The sights on these aren't so great in my opinion, and they may not be up to hunting requirements but I'm sure you'll find many an animal downed by these.

Perhaps the best would be a Swedish mauser, either the short barreled model M38 (light, handy rifle) or long barrel M1896. The 6.5x55 cartridge they shoot is very accurate, recoil is pleasant, and the 140grn bullets have taken plenty of deer. These guns tend to be very accurate and in good condition. Prices tend to be cheaper at $250 to $400. Brass and bullets are usually available, as are dies and loaded ammo. You have to like open sights though.

Enfield Pattern 1914s or Model 1917's use a mauser type action and tend to be very accurate. The P14s are in .303 and the M1917's are in 30-06. They're long and heavy and thus may not make great hunting rifles, but if peep sights are your thing then these would do the trick. Prices vary from $250 to $500 or so, quite a bit of variation in these for some reason.

If you're not adverse to tracking down, or making, brass/bullets for other types of rifles, like the French Mas rifles or the old Kropatschek rifles than the world is your oyster, but the above mentioned rifles tend to have easily available ammo and brass.



I do reload for various calibers including 30-06 and .308 so those are options.

I have seen some very nice examples of bolt action rifles from various countries but have yet to learn about their shooting performance. Ideally I'd like to be able to knock down a deer with a 50-60 yr old rifle using iron sights. I think that would be very satisfying, especially with the current obsession with the new "short magnums".

In summary, I guess I'm after a "classic milsurp" that I can appreciate viewing and using.

[that was loud]

If you're lazy, you can buy a K98 that has been converted to .308 (Israel made many conversions and they can be had for the $350-$500 range. There are also some .308 conversions of Lee Enfield No. 4s around, these tend to fetch a premium of $800 or so. There are Lee Enfield No. I MK. III's in .308 (Indian) but these are harder to find. P&S Militaria has several Norwegian K98s that have been converted to 30-06. These rifles aren't cheap either, but they're in great shape.

The Swiss K31, from what I hear, shoots very well and is mighty accurate. Brass and dies can be had from TradeEx but it's not cheap. They use .308 bullets so at least that shouldn't be a concern. Would probably make a good deer rifle.

If you're looking for that classic look, the Lee Enfields might do the trick. Brass and ammo is available at pretty much every small shop around the country and .310/.311 bullets are usually available. I prefer the open sights of the No. I MK III to the peep sights of the No. 4 but that's personal preference. They can both be had from $300 to $500.

For Mosin Nagants, brass is harder to find but good quality stuff can be had, at $100 for 100 pieces last I checked, from Hirsch Precision. It's 7.62x53 but it's what you need. Bullets are standard .310/.311 (same size as the .303 Enfields). Accuracy is acceptable, maybe not the greatest but good. The sights on these aren't so great in my opinion, and they may not be up to hunting requirements but I'm sure you'll find many an animal downed by these.

Perhaps the best would be a Swedish mauser, either the short barreled model M38 (light, handy rifle) or long barrel M1896. The 6.5x55 cartridge they shoot is very accurate, recoil is pleasant, and the 140grn bullets have taken plenty of deer. These guns tend to be very accurate and in good condition. Prices tend to be cheaper at $250 to $400. Brass and bullets are usually available, as are dies and loaded ammo. You have to like open sights though.

Enfield Pattern 1914s or Model 1917's use a mauser type action and tend to be very accurate. The P14s are in .303 and the M1917's are in 30-06. They're long and heavy and thus may not make great hunting rifles, but if peep sights are your thing then these would do the trick. Prices vary from $250 to $500 or so, quite a bit of variation in these for some reason.

If you're not adverse to tracking down, or making, brass/bullets for other types of rifles, like the French Mas rifles or the old Kropatschek rifles than the world is your oyster, but the above mentioned rifles tend to have easily available ammo and brass.


The 6.5x55 sounds interesting, as does the K31. I guess I'm off to Milarm for more reference material!

Thanks for your input.:thup: