Mauser M71 cavalry carbine at the range

[villiers]

Have now taken it to the range twice. There´s a choice of 50, 100 and 300 metres. Started at 50 and found that it shoots so high using the lowest flip-up sight setting that it´s impossible to test the rifle´s accuracy.

Can´t try it out on the 100 metre range as there´s a stiff financial penalty for damaging the target return mechanism. The 300 metre range might be the best option.

Re-loading is not much of a problem, now that I´ve got a sizer. Is neck sizing an option?
I´m using 446 grain bullets and intend to cast my own once they´re used up.

Think I´m now a bp convert.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Patrick, three tips for all ex-service Mausers, of which an awful lot were zeroed for something like 300 meters.


Can´t try it out on the 100 metre range as there´s a stiff financial penalty for damaging the target return mechanism.
Surely not a problem - you are presumably shooting way over the top, not down below?

1) Try holding the blade as low in the V as you can, while maintaining a reliably repeatable position. If you can get used to this, it will not only bring the POI down but also provide better centering of the aim.

2) Tack a second "Spiegel" (i.e the 26x26 cm target insert, for those who don't speak Mauser) below the black on the main target. This enables you to get some shots actually on the paper. Do this at 50m first, so that you can judge whether or not you are actually going to endanger the target return mechanism at 100m. My club was also very sceptical about BPCRs at first, and I had to demonstrate that I could get all shots in the black at 50m before they allowed me to use the 100m range.

3) Get an extra high K98k foresight blade from (for instance) Frankonia*. The Mauser foresight blade was never changed from start to finish. I have the K98k extra-high blades on the M1971, the M1871 Jaeger, the M1891 Argentine Engineer's Carbine, 1908 Brazil Mauser, and the K98 Israeli from FN in 7.62mm. One size fits all! It may look a bit odd on a carbine with foresight ears, but it brings the POI down into the black.


Is neck sizing an option?
- Neck-sizing is the only option.

If you look at the fired cases you will probably see that the shoulder only bears a vague resemblance to that produced by the full-length sizing die. Neck and shoulder curvature and shoulder angle can be sufficiently different that, for instance, I have to use different case lots for the M1871 and the Jaeger. Full-length sizing really overworks the shoulder area, and will become expensive in cases.
As I have not yet discovered such a thing as an M1871 neck-sizer, I simply turn down the nut on the full-length sizer about 1/2 a turn.

Patrick
:wave:


*If you are likely ever to get another old Mauser, get more than one!

[villiers]

Thanks, Patrick!

The full sizer die for the M71 really does squash it down to what I´m sure is about 0.5 mms.
The cavalry carbine doesn´t have a dovetailed front sight, it´s part of the sight protector/nosecap.
I thought of using two paper targets (one beneath the other), and this works at 25 metres. But I have to aim way too low at 50 (was thinking of making myself a slip-on front sight just for trial purposes).

I haven´t got my bp license yet (the course is in Oct.) but have prepared the cases. Needed to expand the case mouth in order to take the bullets ... but now need a crimper to to get the shape back.

Think I´ll just progress to the 300 metre range at Wannsee and see what happens.

Still waiting for the Werder cases from Buffalo Arms.

Patrick

[Patrick Chadwick]

Still waiting for the Werder cases from Buffalo Arms.

Try Horneber - he makes just about everything in BPCR cases!

Patrick
:wave:

[villiers]

Got them from Reimer Johannsen (and he got them from Horneber). Just hope they last a life time (only a couple more years for me). Wonder which of the two (the M71 or the Werder) I´ll keep.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Wonder which of the two (the M71 or the Werder) I´ll keep.


Patrick, I presume that was an academic question. You are, of course, going to keep both. And to further your budding BPCR "shorty" collection, how about this?

http://egun.de/market/item.php?id=3481490

It gives you the excuse to get yet another set of obscure dies (or get inventive!).

Patrick
:wave:

[villiers]

Hadn´t seen that. But it´s not a cavalry carbine (with a saddle ring and "Stutzen" type fore end). There´s another one that´s perfect: Swedish cavalry Mauser: http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=3476686 (although I´m averse to Swedish weapons)

Don´t know what to do about the `71 shooting so high that it´s almost impossible to compensate. Could it be that the ballistic curve is so much higher with bp? Haven´t shot the Werder carbine yet (the Frankonia black powder course is on the 20th of next month). Have ordered the brass from Buffalo Arms. Can´t find it anywhere else. Just hope it doesn´t go high like the Mauser.

[Patrick Chadwick]

There´s another one that´s perfect: Swedish cavalry Mauser:

Yes, but... it's been altered to 7x57. Which knackers the collector value. So it might go for a reasonable price. Original M94 carbines in 6.5x55 seem to fetch shocking prices (for shooters, that is).



Could it be that the ballistic curve is so much higher with bp?

By heavens yes! - Patrick, are you shooting the M71 with nitro!!! - No wonder the shots are going up into the stratosphere.

BPCRs have a trajectory that is not a lot flatter than a well-fed muzzle-loader. That is to say, more like a howitzer than a .223.
Seriously, until you shoot the M71 carbine with BP there is no point in worrying about the POI or the grouping. Any nitro powder has a savage rate of onset compared with the kind of BP one needs for a BPCR.

That is bad news in a system with a single side-locking lug.

When you get your BP license, see that you get a small bottle of Swiss No. 4 and another of Swiss No. 3, as you will need to do some load experimentation. Swiss No. 4 is what I prefer for the long M71, but No. 3 may be better suited to the carbine length.

Patrick
:wave:

[villiers]

27090 NO! I´d never use nitro in it. I got someone to load 60 rounds with BP and I´ve only got three left to last me to the end of next month. Went to the Wannsee range this morning, set up two targets (one above the other) and got it all worked out for 100 metres. It´s still too high. Great fun turning the range into a battlefield with smoke. What I really need is something to go over the front sight to increase its height. Otherwise am greatly please to have worked my way into the black. Just hope the Werder works even better. If it does, the Mauser `71 will have to go. The 33/40 Gebirgsjäger is on Hermann Historica today (I´ll never be a collector).

[Patrick Chadwick]

Getting BPCR carbines on target at 100 meters



http://www.milsurps.com/images/tacticalgamer/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by villiers http://www.milsurps.com/images/tacticalgamer/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?p=207075#post207075)
Am still pondering on the problem of how to get the sights lower on the M71 & the Werder for 100 metres (don´t want to do any permanent alterations). Is the only alternative a much lower charge ... and what should I use as filler?




Components of a solution:
1) Get a much higher foresight. On the M1871 rifle and Jaeger (http://www.amazon.de/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?__mk_de_DE=%C5M%C5Z%D5%D1&url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=jaeger) (I have both) you can use an extra-high foresight blade for a K98 (http://www.milsurps.com/'http://www.milsurps.com/content.php?r=123-germany\'bGermany)http://www.milsurps.com/autolinker/images/link6.gif!
On a carbine M71, the blade/ears assembly may look like a single block, but please check if that is really so. If it really is a single block, then you can try the following, which worked successfully on a friend's Mauser: file up a piece of mild steel to wrap over the top of the blade from fore to aft (the result looks a bit like a muzzle/sight protector, but much thinner) and glue this on with a "liquid metal" epoxy. Clean the metal parts with acetone before gluing, to ensure a firm bond. The fore-aft wraparound is important to prevent the recoil from breaking the bond.

2) Practise the "fine sighting" aim, as used in the 19th century, i.e. burying the blade right down in the backsight V, as I have described elsewhere.

3) Use a reduced load. For a repeatable filler volume that will not choke in the neck of the cartridge case (any granulate), burn (wool), melt (plastics), or scour the bore (semolina), use one of the VFG Kal. 44/45 Reinigungsfilze (the ones that have a little hole in the middle for the cleaning rod screw tip). They seem to have a very consistent length. Adjust the powder volume to suit, so that a bit of the felt is still in the neck section, i.e. not completely down in the wider section, where it would be loose. All on your responsibility, of course!

4) Or abandon the whole business and give me the carbines:D

Patrick

P.S: I am going to copy this over to the BP forum, for the benefit of others who may have the same problem.

[villiers]

Really can´t do much about the foresights on the Werder or the 71 cav. carbine as the blade is an integral part of the sight base (which, in turn is soldered onto the barrel). I always keep just the tip of the foresight in the V, so can´t get it lower than that. At present there are three solutions to the problem: (1) to drill a minute hole in the top of the foresight blade and use a pin with a glass bubble (2) to soft solder a brass plate to the front of the foresight (this was originally done to the Jäger rifles and maybe also to the carbines) and (3) ... think I´ll take your advice and use a `45 felt cleaning plug as a filler and see how that works (it´ll most likely produce a ballistic curve like a mortar). As you mentioned ... `tis a bit nippy at the moment on the range (and it´s about 20 kms on the motorbike) so will spend the time re-loading (neck sizer made by Triebel).

[Patrick Chadwick]

(3) ... think I´ll take your advice and use a `45 felt cleaning plug as a filler and see how that works
- That is certainly the easiest option to try out.


(3) ... it´ll most likely produce a ballistic curve like a mortar.
- Which seems to be what you need.


(3) ... `tis a bit nippy at the moment on the range
- The technical term is "brass monkeys weather".

Good luck! - And let us know how it turns out.

:wave:
Patrick

[Emri]

Hey Patrick,

If you see this posting, how about looking at the Mauser forum and helping me out with a M/71 question I posted there.

Thanks,

Emri

[Patrick Chadwick]

Whichever you meant, Patrick said it all. And I am not qualified to say anything about prices where you live, apart from the general rule of thumb that what you pay in dollars, we pay in euros !

:wave:
Patrick

[Emri]

Whichever you meant, Patrick said it all. And I am not qualified to say anything about prices where you live, apart from the general rule of thumb that what you pay in dollars, we pay in euros !

:wave:
Patrick


Actually, the question was directed to you as you seem to be on top of the European arms and know your stuff. Yes, trying to compare prices would be a bit inconclusive, but I really don't know if it is a $50 or $500 (US) rifle. I have learned from a magazine article that "Amberg", stamped on top of the barrel chamber area, is the Bavarian state arsenal where it was built. I,ve had no response to my other questions yet. The mentioned article was more of a history lesson about European conflicts than about the rifle.

Thanks again,

Emri

[villiers]

Have scratched away the crud and found that ... both the Werder AND the M71 carbine really do have dovetailed front sight blades. So, all is not lost. Just have to find blades that fit (or have dovetails that are a bit bigger and can be filed down).

[Patrick Chadwick]

Just have to find blades that fit


Search "the usual suspects" for extra-tall blades for the Kar98. I have fitted these to Mausers from the M1871 BPCR right through to the FN-Israeli, including the Argentine Engineer's Carbine. It may look a bit odd if the blade comes up above the ears, but it works! It seems that Mauser dovetail dimensions stayed constant for a century.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Patrick, here are some photos of the tall K98 blade in the Argentine Engineers Carbine.

33172

33171

The M71 carbine is probably very similar, and as you can see,
33170

it may be necessary to file the ends of the dovetail to provide some left-right clearance for adjusting the windage.

:wave:
Patrick

[villiers]

Thanx again Patrick (for the info that Mauser used the same measurements). I was a bit wary of the blade dovetail expanding the dovetail base on the rifle (as happened to me once previously with a P08). I´ve got some Mauser K89 front sight blades. Not worried too much if the dovetail´s a bit smaller as I can stick them in with Loctite. Will post a pic of the finished product.

[Patrick Chadwick]

if the dovetail´s a bit smaller as I can stick them in with Loctite.


You might regret the Loctite later if you want to shift the blade. If the dovetail is loose, the best way of tightening it is to peen it on the bottom surface at a couple of spots, close to the edge, with a well-pointed centre punch. If you have one of the spring-loaded type that "snaps" when you press hard enough, you can do this very sensitively without needing a hammer, repeating until you get enough friction.

[gunner]

27090 NO! I´d never use nitro in it. I got someone to load 60 rounds with BP and I´ve only got three left to last me to the end of next month. Went to the Wannsee range this morning, set up two targets (one above the other) and got it all worked out for 100 metres. It´s still too high. Great fun turning the range into a battlefield with smoke. What I really need is something to go over the front sight to increase its height. Otherwise am greatly please to have worked my way into the black. Just hope the Werder works even better. If it does, the Mauser `71 will have to go. The 33/40 Gebirgsjäger is on Hermann Historica today (I´ll never be a collector).

Would fit fine in my safe!

Great Thread!

[villiers]

Pity about that Ulrich! I can´t recommend Herm.Hist. The 33/40 didn´t achieve anything like the one on eGun (just a few days left and the price is going through the roof). Think I´ve got the front sight problem finally worked out and can now find out how accurate the M `71 and the Werder are.

[gunner]

Thats the problem with the Auction houses. I´m sure that the M`71 will be a good shooter! They normally are.

[jon_norstog]

I've never heard of a Mauser that wouldn't shoot the eye out of anything you could see. That carbine will shoot closer than you can hold it!

jn

[villiers]

342873428834289I´ve come to terms with the Werder cav. carbine in the meantime. I´ve fitted it with a higher front sight and worked out my own re-load (cast the barrel with CerroSafe and had a mold made). Can´t say that it´s spectacularly precise ... but ok. (the target is standard 10 inch at 100 metres).

Can´t say that the M `71 is any better. But have sent in the CerroSafe cast and am waiting for the mold. It´s got a new front sight blade but I´m not satisfied with the re-loads and I can´t yet get satisfactory results on the target so will have to wait till I can make some bullets.

The Werder mechanism is a source of great joy. It comes out for cleaning, comes apart and looks like something from a jigsaw puzzle but is easy to do once it´s understood.

Suppose you can´t expect too much from either of them (the Werder´s not much more than a stocked pistol)