1940 Savage no. 4 mk1?

[clarkmilitaria]

Hello,

I know a gun store owner that recently had someone walk in to his store and offer him a No. 4 Mk. 1 Enfield. He does not really like or know foreign guns, he likes U.S. guns more, but since the Enfield said "U.S. Property" on the side, he bought it for his private collection. I looked at it very briefly and saw that it was Savage made in 1940.

Here is my question: Is it a possibility that Savage made these in 1940? I have done a lot of research and have come up with only the information that a Savage 1941 no 4 mk1 is early, and more valuable than a mk1*, therefore a 1940 example would be very early on, would it not? Throughout my research I did not find one from 1940, so naturally I did not find a price. Any ideas on a ballpark price? Sorry, I cannot say if parts were all S marked and/or matching, like I said, it was only a very brief look.

Thanks in advance for any help you can give me.
Jim

[conec]

Skennerton says that the Chicopee rifles were approved for production on June 14th, 1941. I have never seen a 1940 dated Savage.

[conec]

Did the serial number on the wrist look anything like this?

This is on a 1942 dated No.4Mk1 - the example you describe would have to be a 0C rifle (unless it's really a No.1... :confused:)

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2011/10/P1050013S-1.jpg

[tlvaughn]

The first rifle produced was proofed and fired on July 25th, 1941. Rifle 0C1 (Rifle #1) is a 1941 dated rifle and belongs to a member of this forum, so a 1940 dated Savage would be very unusual. Any chance you can get some pictures and post them?

[clarkmilitaria]

I'll try to get some pictures and post them, but I can't say for sure when that'll happen. The dealer lives around 45 minutes away, so I don't know If I'll make that drive tomorrow just for pictures. When I go up there next, I'll be sure to bring the camera and take a closer look. I thought I read that no. 4's were offically adopted in 1941 but made and issued as early as 1939, but I can't back that up as solid information and I trust your information more...thanks for the input so far.

[clarkmilitaria]

When I do go to take photos, are there any particular spots besides serial numbers and the wrist and receiver markings you would want to see?

[Steve H. in N.Y.]

If it's for sure 1940 then we demand to see everything:)

[tlvaughn]

27255
When I do go to take photos, are there any particular spots besides serial numbers and the wrist and receiver markings you would want to see?

I would want to see the markings on the left side receiver and butt socket. The markings on the 1941-42 MkI's look like the attached pics.

[clarkmilitaria]

Here's what I found: "By the late 1930s the need for new rifles grew, and the Rifle, No. 4 Mk I was first issued in 1939 but not officially adopted until 1941." The citation for this is:
Skennerton (1994, 2), p.5
I got it from wikipedia...I know a lot of people say that it is not reliable, but if that info really comes from Skennerton's book I would assume it is accurate. Does anyone have that book to reference it?
Lee-Enfield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield)
under Rifle no. 4, first sentence.

[jrhead75]

Per Skennerton's "The Lee Enfield" (2007), pg. 310..."The first Stevens Savage .303 No,4 Mk1 rifle was test fired on Friday, July 25th 1941 at the Chicopee Falls plant..."

[conec]

Here's what I found: "By the late 1930s the need for new rifles grew, and the Rifle, No. 4 Mk I was first issued in 1939 but not officially adopted until 1941." The citation for this is:
Skennerton (1994, 2), p.5
I got it from wikipedia...I know a lot of people say that it is not reliable, but if that info really comes from Skennerton's book I would assume it is accurate. Does anyone have that book to reference it?
Lee-Enfield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield)
under Rifle no. 4, first sentence.

Keep in mind that the Wiki article is discussing No.4 production in general terms. North American production (as discussed above) started later than that in the UK...

[clarkmilitaria]

OK, thanks for clarifying. It was just something to keep in mind and I wanted to know if it was valid. I hope to take photos tomorrow.

[tlvaughn]

Here's what I found: "By the late 1930s the need for new rifles grew, and the Rifle, No. 4 Mk I was first issued in 1939 but not officially adopted until 1941." The citation for this is:
Skennerton (1994, 2), p.5
I got it from wikipedia...I know a lot of people say that it is not reliable, but if that info really comes from Skennerton's book I would assume it is accurate. Does anyone have that book to reference it?
Lee-Enfield - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee-Enfield)
under Rifle no. 4, first sentence.

I'm going to assume that they are referring to the No4 Trials rifles. To quote Skennerton referring to ROF-Faz, ROF-Maltby, and BSA-Shirley, "These three factories commenced manufacture of the new rifle in 1941". As far as North American production, he states the following about Long Branch, "By 30th June 1941, the Long Branch factory had a staff of 735 and the first five rifles had been completed and submitted for tests and trials". And as stated above, the first Savage rifle was test fired on July 25, 1941.

Instead of quoting from the internet and the books, lets see how fast we can get some pictures posted. The problem you will run into without the pictures is that to date, not one 1940 No4 MkI has ever surfaced from any of the above - Faz, Maltby, BSA, Long Branch, or Savage.

We are a visual bunch here, so get us some pictures. :D

[Peter Laidler]

I say don't bother with the pictures and settle down all of you forumers out there. While I'm no historian by any means, I can tell you that it's definately not a Savage 1940.......................

[tlvaughn]

I say don't bother with the pictures and settle down all of you forumers out there. While I'm no historian by any means, I can tell you that it's definately not a Savage 1940.......................

I agree PL, you are just more direct than I am. :thup:

With that said, I have also learned to never say never with Enfields!

[muffett.2008]

Yep, now you've thrown down the gauntlet for some bugger to stamp one on and try to pass it of as the almost unobtainium.

[clarkmilitaria]

I called the owner today and got voicemail twice, so he was not in, and got no calls back. After all, it is Sunday. Based on your advice I'll just ask him over the phone to look at the gun to see if it truly does say 1940. If it does, I'll get photos, if not, then I won't bother. And if someone really wanted to stamp on 1940 they would...and most likely not as a result of this thread. This thread was intended only as a question of if a 1940 no. 4 is possible, because when the owner handed me the gun he said "its 1940" and I'm pretty sure I saw 1940 as well. No harm meant.

[Lance]

For your enjoyment. Here is OC68 (68th rifle built at Savage) that was just sold on gunbroker (converted to a sniper). Sadly sporterized. Plus her sister OC64, FTR'd in 1949, also an ex-gunbroker that was sanded and urethaned. Both dated 1941.

[Roger Payne]

I would concur with PL, Lance & TLV etc. However, I don't doubt the poster's sincerity. I just wonder if '1940' might feature in the serial number & have been mistaken as the date? Also, many users of enfield rifles, particularly post-WW2 stamped rack/inventory numbers into their rifles (there have been a number of posts on this very forum). Some decent photo's will no doubt solve the mystery....

ATB

[clarkmilitaria]

You could be correct, like I said, it was a brief look. But, I'm not going to let it go until I know for certain if I was mistaken about the date, although I hope I'm not. I know it seems extremely unlikely, but that is why I posed the question here in the first place.

[newcastle]

this whole thing is exactly WHY people love Lee Enfields and old gun collecting in general.hours of poring through ols pawn stores, gun racks, gun store back rooms etc etc thinking that this time, you might find a gem or missing link or experimental rifle.

[conec]

this whole thing is exactly WHY people love Lee Enfields and old gun collecting in general.hours of poring through ols pawn stores, gun racks, gun store back rooms etc etc thinking that this time, you might find a gem or missing link or experimental rifle.

Like the time I found (in a SoCal gun shop) a very nice No.1 Mk.V being sold as a run-of-mill No.1 Mk.III*. The cash could not leave my wallet fast enough.

[newcastle]

I did exactly the same here in San francisco. - $200 it was, but I'd just started collecting Enfields and thought that it would be easy to find another, so I sold it at a nice profit - took me 6 years to find another.

[clarkmilitaria]

You all were right; I finally was able to look at the rifle today and upon closer inspection it was actually 1942. However, the 1942 was worn pretty badly and I see why I thought it said 1940. The serial number was 1CXXXX (not sure on the number of x's but that's close) and aren't the 1C numbered rifles slightly more valuable? Thanks for all of the help.

[tlvaughn]

Savage MkI's seem to bring a little more than Savage MkI*'s. Of the 1.2 million +/- No4's made by Savage, only approx. 10% were MkI's.

[breakeyp]

I am glad this has been settled as I would be most upset if there was an OC0.5 in front of my 0C1. But then again it would not suprise me either.

[tlvaughn]

I am glad this has been settled as I would be most upset if there was an OC0.5 in front of my 0C1. But then again it would not suprise me either.

You own one of the three rifles on my Savage Wish (but will never own) List. The other two are the one-millionth Savage rifle and a 1941 Savage T converted to an L42 (0C109).

[dieppe42]

conec: just as a FYI, I came across a (matching) MkV barrelled action at a small gunshow last Saturday.....the owner was looking for a full set of wood.....

[tbonesmith]

conec: just as a FYI, I came across a (matching) MkV barrelled action at a small gunshow last Saturday.....the owner was looking for a full set of wood.....


He should get onto EFD in the UK for a repro set.

[Bindi2]

What is so special about OC109 and where is it hiding

[tlvaughn]

What is so special about OC109 and where is it hiding

0C109 is a No4 MkI T and is the only Savage I have seen that was converted to an L42. I did not know a Savage L42 existed until I saw some pictures of it from an auction in Australia -- are you the new owner?

[Bindi2]

0C109 is a No4 MkI T and is the only Savage I have seen that was converted to an L42. I did not know a Savage L42 existed until I saw some pictures of it from an auction in Australia -- are you the new owner?

YES i am

[tlvaughn]

YES i am

Congratulations -- :bow:

I have the picture from the auction as my desktop background on my computer. I work for an Australian owned company, maybe one day if I ever get invited to the corporate offices you will let me hold it!! How close are you to Sydney?

[Bindi2]

Congratulations -- :bow:

I have the picture from the auction as my desktop background on my computer. I work for an Australian owned company, maybe one day if I ever get invited to the corporate offices you will let me hold it!! How close are you to Sydney?

About as far west as you can go and still be in Australia. Which company (confidentiality is OK)

[tlvaughn]

About as far west as you can go and still be in Australia. Which company (confidentiality is OK)

BORAL - I work for a division in the US named Boral Building Products.

[Bindi2]

BORAL - I work for a division in the US named Boral Building Products.

Ok know them. Bought a couple of their ex fleet concrete trucks without bowls 2yrs ago. They are now farm trucks.

[breakeyp]

For what is is worth, L42 based on Savage 0C915 lives with me. I also have L42s made from Long Branch and Enfield Trials actions. Apparently they were made up with what ever came to hand during the conversion process.

[tlvaughn]

For what is is worth, L42 based on Savage 0C915 lives with me. I also have L42s made from Long Branch and Enfield Trials actions. Apparently they were made up with what ever came to hand during the conversion process.

Thank you, I was only aware of 0C109 since it was the only one I had seen and very few Savage's were converted to T's. If there are two, may be there are three, so maybe I do have a chance to obtain a Savage L42. 0C1 and the one-millionth are a different story, I will only obtain those in my dreams.

[Peter Laidler]

I have the other L42 based on a trials action. The bodies subject to conversion were all given a most thorough detailed and close examination equivalent to the old FTR screening whereby after conversion, they had to deliver a further 80% life. Any that couldn't fulfill this criteria was rejected. I've mentioned this before but there were several other trials T's submitted but were rejected due to the different rear sight configuration. Longevity, serviceability and standardisation were the basic requirements

[jmoore]

There must be at least three Savage L42a1s as a friend of mine sold one a several years back. Delivered to a fellow at Knob Creek, IIRC. Why I did not buy it is a giant mystery...Cash poor at the time?

[Gav]

You own one of the three rifles on my Savage Wish (but will never own) List. The other two are the one-millionth Savage rifle and a 1941 Savage T converted to an L42 (0C109).

I saw that rifle at auction in May this year, nice looking rifle indeed.