Question re AIA M10 No 4 mk IV origin

[Cantom]

I had a thought the other day re the origin of these rifles. Could they have been made in China by Norinco?
Are we even sure there is a government gun factory in Vietnam?

What suddenly made me wonder is, the barrel is chromed internally, just like pretty much every gun Norinco sells, even their .45 1911 pistols.

[Claven2]

I have to say - the evidence is overwhelming that it's Vietnam.

[Steve]

Vietnam is what Lawrence Ord in Oz is saying. Them and other Down Under shooters from different parts of the country. The AIA rifles have been sold in Oz for five or six years, starting with 7.62x39s.

There are a few other indications. A complete absence of ANY stampings except for AIA, Brisbane. This lends credence to the statements by American shooters and businesses with which I have corresponded that said the Vietnam connection would be a negative selling point.

Then there are the SDI stamps. Some of the rifles sold in Canada by Marstar bear the Sabre Defence marking originally intended for Nashville. The SDI stamp with "AIA, Brisbane" would have fooled many US buyers into thinking they were Oz made.

My belief in that regard was that it was the US importer's intent to downplay the actual country of manufacture. That would have negatively impacted on sales - had AIA not screwed up and lost the contract of course.

[Cantom]

I have a No 4 Mk IV on the way Steve...you haven't talked me out of it yet.
Hey, where do you live? Want to try my new rifle when I get it? I think you're in Southern Ontario? Email me if you want...we could take it to my club.


Vietnam is what Lawrence Ord in Oz is saying. Them and other Down Under shooters from different parts of the country. The AIA rifles have been sold in Oz for five or six years, starting with 7.62x39s.

There are a few other indications. A complete absence of ANY stampings except for AIA, Brisbane. This lends credence to the statements by American shooters and businesses with which I have corresponded that said the Vietnam connection would be a negative selling point.

Then there are the SDI stamps. Some of the rifles sold in Canada by Marstar bear the Sabre Defence marking originally intended for Nashville. The SDI stamp with "AIA, Brisbane" would have fooled many US buyers into thinking they were Oz made.

My belief in that regard was that it was the US importer's intent to downplay the actual country of manufacture. That would have negatively impacted on sales - had AIA not screwed up and lost the contract of course.

[Claven2]

I'm not saying people shouldn't buy the rifles, but I AM convinced they originate in the People's Republic of Vietnam.

Whether that's any better or worse than the Chinese stuff most people are lapping up is debatable ;)

[Cantom]

I'm not saying people shouldn't buy the rifles, but I AM convinced they originate in the People's Republic of Vietnam.

Whether that's any better or worse than the Chinese stuff most people are lapping up is debatable ;)

I've been to Vietnam 3 times...my wife is Vietnamese. There is junk made there and there's great stuff made there...if the Hams or whoever are doing any QC then the rifles are likely fine.

[Steve]

No, I don't live in S. Ont.

I have had the chance to examine one but not fire it. As I said at my site, my biggest concern is liability. When this word is used or the subject mentioned EVERYONE goes silent. I have trouble buying something when I'm told not to bother with the details. You like it, you buy it.

I was a service armourer and these things interest me. When I research books or articles and the information is being purposely withheld, I have to ask - why? It's the only firearms company in the world that does that. I think that you can appreciate how this could be considered suspect - su****ious. (Odd, the sp!c part of su****ious has stars - now I see why).

The second thing is easier to answer - why the lack of markings? You have to go back a few years. These were originally intended for US sale. After AIA screwed up with 2 of their original US importers, Marstar got the chance but they were - for lack of a better term - second string. The reason that both the Hams and Marstar continue with the obfuscation is because they still wish to sell into the US. It is the largest single market in the world for them. I believe that AIA needs a cooling off period while their less than stellar reputation with US distrubtors is given time to fade from memory. When it does, you can bet they'll try finding a US importer again.

As it stands, there is a lot of ill feeling within the US community regarding anything from Vietnam. In order to sell the rifles, they have to somehow avert the mention of it. That is why there is no marking stating "Made in Vietnam". There is no indication at all of where it was actually made. AIA knew that if the rifle was stamped AIA, Brisbane, people would make that leap and assume Oz was the country of manufacture. It's not illegal as far as I know but it is deceptive. Stronger words have been used by others (especially in the US) but I'll leave it at that.

[Claven2]

FWIW, US BATF regs REQUIRE the importer to stamp the rifles with the country of origin. Australia is NOT the country of origin though, so I think AIA ran afoul of the US importation folks - hence why the batch re-routed to Canada did not get sold stateside (as I understand the situation - which might be less than 100% true, we'll see).

[Cantom]

Lots of Americans seem to have gotten over the Vietnam war thing, it's water under the bridge for most. At any rate, far more Vietnamese were killed/maimed/poisoned than were Americans. They're getting on with their lives and building a country and a future. The US is forging ahead with friendly relations with Vietnam.
Given a choice, I'd consider modern day Vietnam a more friendly nation and less of a threat than China is...I'd rather send my money there. I'm not a Norinco fan at all...I sold my SKS off months ago and don't miss it.




No, I don't live in S. Ont.

I have had the chance to examine one but not fire it. As I said at my site, my biggest concern is liability. When this word is used or the subject mentioned EVERYONE goes silent. I have trouble buying something when I'm told not to bother with the details. You like it, you buy it.

I was an service armourer and these things interest me. When I research books or articles and the information is being purposely withheld, I have to ask - why? It's the only firearms company in the world that does that. I think that you can appreciate how this could be considered suspect. (Odd, the **** su****ious.

The second thing is easier to answer - why the lack of markings? You have to go back a few years. These were originally intended for US sale. After AIA screwed up with 2 of their original US importers, Marstar got the chance but they were - for lack of a better term - second string. The reason that both the Hams and Marstar continue with the obfuscation is because they wish to sell into the US. It is the largest single market in the world for them.

As it stands, there is a lot of ill feeling within the US community regarding anything from Vietnam. In order to sell the rifles, they have to somehow avert the mention of it. That is why there is no marking stating "Made in Vietnam". There is no indication at all of where it was actually made. AIA knew that if the rifle was stamped AIA, Brisbane, people would make that leap and assume Oz was the country of manufacture. It's not illegal as far as I know but it is deceptive. Stronger words have been used by others (especially in the US) but I'll leave it at that.

[Steve]

Ron, did you read my article? Stamps didn't enter into it, at least, according to Tristar. Expired permits was given as the official reason. Tristar had no reason to lie about that.

Was Vietnam a factor when talking about the earlier US attempts at importation? That is still unclear. I could understand the concern US Customs may have had with the country of origin. Tristar and then Sabre Defence in Nashville, TN had thought to import them. The US State Department said no, allegedly because of an expired permit and put an end to that. It seems that, for Tristar at least, things didn't work out. The company had trouble with AIA and terminated their business relationship with AIA. The reason? I was told,"Delivery issues, and inability to work with the supplier. Long periods of no contact at all, and actually un-cooperative." Oh.

[Steve]

Maybe I post on too many veteran's sites but the bad feelings about Vietnam are still very much in evidence. But that's really not important. Advertising is everything.

Based on what I was told by the businesses in the US, the Vietnam issue was one of their concerns. Private citizens expressed that to me as well. If it was not a problem for AIA, why would they refuse to answer? What would Lawrence Ord in Oz have to gain by lying about it? Or other Oz rifle owners for that matter?

It's very disturbing to me that no one is willing to talk about something that should be completely out in the open.

[Cantom]

Ron, did you read my article? Stamps didn't enter into it, at least, according to Tristar. Expired permits was given as the official reason. Tristar had no reason to lie about that.

The guy at the first US distributor(was it Tristar?)told me it wasn't that country of origin thing, he just couldn't get any stock from AIA. He said people liked the rifles and he only had feed problems with one of them.

The Hams have obviously had teething problems with their enterprise. I just hope people (especially influential ones with websites hint hint) give them a chance to make a go of it. In this day and age of anti-gun governments(like n Australia and Canada) and the UN, how hard must it have been to even get to where they are? We are after all shooters on here and I think new gun companies should be encouraged, not destroyed.
Marstar not handing over a free rifle for a test to someone who was being critical of them is not a reason to torpedo the whole company, is it? They may be fine rifles eh?

[tiriaq]

One of the stories is that the barrels are US made, having been left behind when the US left Vietnam. Supposedly Mini-gun barrels. I have no idea if there is any truth to this story. I do not know what the dimensions of such a barrel are, and if it could be used for this purpose. This would explain the chromed bore, though. I am unaware of anyone making a "match grade" rifle barrel with a plated bore.
It is very common for manufactured goods to contain parts made in various countries. No one even questions quality when Winchester and Browning guns are made in Japan, and so marked. The big difference here is the secrecy and evasiveness. The rifles are not inexpensive. It would be nice to know that there is an ongoing supply of spare parts, that there is a manufacturer standing behind the product. The US distributor's marks on rifles imported into Canada does not suggest fresh ongoing production, but rather an unsold batch that happened to be on hand.
As far as Norinco goes, these rifles look better finished than any Norinco product.
I would not expect all the parts of a firearm or any manufactured product to be made entirely in one facility, under one roof. Every manufacturer contracts out. As far as a "Made in ...." label goes, the definition is a technical one, based on regulations which specify the amount of production, content, etc. that took place in that country. Has anyone seen one of these rifles that actually has a "Made in ...." stamp on it?

[Steve]

As I said, failure of these rifles entering the US had nothing to do with Vietnam as far as the US gov't was concerned. Tristar referred to expired permits. The businesses were only concerned with Vietnam at first insofar as it might have affected their sales. AIA it seems was much more worried about it however.

Tristar was the first company. SDI was the second.

The Hams (owners of AIA) are NOT new to business. Their business was started in 1993 as Australian Collector Arms. In 1996, the AIA name started being used. This was when they were selling to Oz only. How many years of teething are allowed?

Let's be clear on a couple of things here. At first, I was actually excited to lend a hand. I was thrilled at the prospect of handling a brand new Lee Enfield clone. Marstar asked me to review the rifle, after they discovered who it was that emailed them for information regarding prices and availability.

I NEVER asked them if they wanted me to do an article. Further to that, had I been LOANED a rifle, I would only have been able to keep it after finishing the contracted review, if I paid for it. The price would have been less than retail, but certainly NOT free.

As I was working up my story, it was necessary to gather some information and ask questions. Simple stuff I thought. One of the questions was, "What is the country of origin?" That question was not well received. When I asked about product liability, you would have thought I had attempted to conjure up the devil! John St. Amour didn't communicate with me after questions were raised. I was given over to another person.

When people started ducking for cover, examining the rifle became secondary. This whole thing has nothing to do with brand new businesses or anti-gun governments. It has to do with answering a couple of easy questions. It has to do with truth and honesty.

Consider this: recently, Remington started importing Zastava rifles. They are being marketed as their Models 798 and 799. They announced publicly where they got them. Same with their Spartan line from Russia. No need to hide that info and Remington didn't try.

The fact of the matter is, no other firearms company on the planet hides this sort of information. They freely give it out to anyone who asks. You can write Remington. You can email Remington. You can phone Remington. They do not run or attempt to hide from consumers. Same with the other rifle makers.

Why is AIA hiding?

[Steve]

Has anyone seen one of these rifles that actually has a "Made in ...." stamp on it?

There is NO "Made in Vietnam" or "Made in Australia" stamp. On the left side of the action, this is stamped - "Australian International Arms - Brisbane, Australia"

[Claven2]

Well, I am certainly willing to give the rifle's a chance. In my case, I never buy a new car in the first year of production as I know it will have lots of bugs.

With these new Enfields from Australia, I may one day buy one, but I want to see their real world track record better established first. Just my personal opinion. (which in no wayu reflects the official opinion of milsurps.com - for the record ;))

[Oatmeal Savage]

Steve, I visited your site and read your article, well done and informative.

OS

[Steve]

You're welcome.

I do not hate this rifle. Unlike some that have said that they are a poor copy of the original and rail against them, I think that they could be a great, updated version. Until someone that represents AIA answers my very simple questions, I will not buy one. They are potentially dangerous. Sadly, their silence sounds like a warning siren.

There's a line from the TV show Friends I believe that said, "It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye!" How true.

[bearhunter]

Don't let the "Made in Vietnam" moniker scare you.
The AIA rifles are darn good.
The fit, finish, reliability and accuracy are excellent and commensurate with their price.
I have an M10 B2 Match.
It's very accurate and has low recoil due to its weight and basic design
The components are well made and tough.
I'm not sure of the metalurgy used in the rifle and its corresponding parts, but if the appearance of the rifle is any indication, there's not thing to worry about.
I can't see there being any problems with the AIA No 4 style rifles that wouldn't be found with any other No 4 made in Canada, USA or England.
The Vietnamese have had a long relationship with martial firearms and their care. The Aussies aren't slouchses either.
As far as my rifle goes, other than a heavier than I like trigger pull, they seem to have worked out all of the bugs.
No it's not a normal No4, the receiver is beefed up, the steel in it "may" be superior to the originals, the front sight is clamped to the barrel and the rear top wood is held on with barrel clamp springs.
If it's to much of a variant for your particular tastes, so be it, but don't knock it as far as reliability, quality, fit/finish or accuracy are concerned. bearhunter

[Steve]

I don't think that anyone here is concerned about where it's made. I disagree about the price however for reasons already stated at my site. Metalurgy is the big sticking point for me, which walks arm in arm with liability.

No one has owned and fired one long enough to judge its ability to sustain in the long haul. We'll have to wait for that.

No one has "knocked" it. Myself and some others have asked questions. Questions which have not been answered. The bling has blinded more people than the others who quesiton it. When the questions are answered, we'll see.

[Dimitri]

Ever since they were talked about on CGN and they became avalible to the Canadian shooting public I've been wondering to get one or not. I'd really like a 308Win version of the No.4 rifles so these did seem like the best opinion. But a little while ago since the talk on CGN I came to my senses about getting one. For many reasons, cost was a big factor not because of its 800$ price tag. But because for 800$ I'd buy one without question the moment I had enough in the bank if it was made in Australia, Canada or the US but I wouldn't buy one made in Vietnam or China etc for that much especially when I can buy a Norinco M14 type rifle for half that. As well as a few other things like missing bayonet lugs and stripper clip guides making it for me not a clone of the No.4 but a sporter rifle. Sort of like calling a Win M70 (or any other Claw Feed Mauser type action) a K98k if you dressed it in the right wood it just isnt the same.

As for the issues in Quality Control at whatever factory in Vietnam is making them, only one good way to test that to buy a gun and feed it a few proof loads, I'd start with the standard 70,000PSI and see how many of them it can take before failing. :D Or you could get it tested for its composition and the like if you had a much bigger budget. But that would be less fun anyways! :thdown:

Dimitri

[stencollector]

We recently gave away a no4mk4 as a doorprize for the Battle of the Bulge shooting match here in Shilo. I had a chance to observe the rifle up close, and there were a few minor cosmetic weak points that I found. The rear sling swivel screws in to the buttstock did not seat fully in to the tapered holes of the swivel base. Also , the front sling swivel looked a little amatureish where the loop was welded to the swivel piece. It certainly was not up to the LongBranch standard of finish. Grind marks over the weld were very evident.
Small points, sure, but on a $800 rifle, I would have expected a level of workmanship equal to the mass produced wartime rifles.
Can't say as I'm too keen on the allen head bolts holding the front sight base in either. The whole front sight base looks a little square for my liking.
I can be a hard man to please. Personally, I would take a DCRA converion LB Enfield with a Sterling mag for about the same money.

[gunguy56]

I bought an AIA M10A2 a couple years ago. It was imported by Tristar. I paid $600 US at retail. I subsequently tracked down the designer of this rifle-Bruce Gentner. His email is: brucegentner@optusnet.com.au . The AIA M10A2 was in 7.62x39, and used AK mags. The rifle would not feed until I shortened the stock AK mag spring. Now it feeds OK. The rifle is really well made, no surplus parts. The teak stock is nice. Overall, I'd give it a 9 out of 10. Accuracy with WOLF 122gn HP ammo is 2-3" at 100 yards from the bench with scope. WOLF 154gn SP ammo was 1-2". Great hunting carbine, although a bit heavy. From email correspondence with Mr. Gentner, he admitted the teak stocks were, in fact, made in Vietnam. He wouldn't specify where the metal was made though. It's my guess that it is Vietnam-maybe a plant set up with help from their commie buddies from Red China. Gentner did say that AIA had problems with Tristar and he had to sever the relationship. I'm guessing that the country-of-origin was an issue too. Very few were imported. If the new Marstar imported .308 AIA's are made as well as my AIA M10A2, I'd say get one if you can. Doubt if any of us in the USA are going to see any, though.....

[Cantom]

I bought an AIA M10A2 a couple years ago. It was imported by Tristar. I paid $600 US at retail. I subsequently tracked down the designer of this rifle-Bruce Gentner. His email is: brucegentner@optusnet.com.au . The AIA M10A2 was in 7.62x39, and used AK mags. The rifle would not feed until I shortened the stock AK mag spring. Now it feeds OK. The rifle is really well made, no surplus parts. The teak stock is nice. Overall, I'd give it a 9 out of 10. Accuracy with WOLF 122gn HP ammo is 2-3" at 100 yards from the bench with scope. WOLF 154gn SP ammo was 1-2". Great hunting carbine, although a bit heavy. From email correspondence with Mr. Gentner, he admitted the teak stocks were, in fact, made in Vietnam. He wouldn't specify where the metal was made though. It's my guess that it is Vietnam-maybe a plant set up with help from their commie buddies from Red China. Gentner did say that AIA had problems with Tristar and he had to sever the relationship. I'm guessing that the country-of-origin was an issue too. Very few were imported. If the new Marstar imported .308 AIA's are made as well as my AIA M10A2, I'd say get one if you can. Doubt if any of us in the USA are going to see any, though.....

I've already sent him an email and suspect I won't be the only one...thanks for adding something new on this.

[bearhunter]

Cantom, I have the Match model rifle, I really like it. There don't seem to be any safety concerns with it at all. No set back on the lugs or receiver guides.
Steve brings up some very pertinent questions.
If these rifles hadn't been used for many years by many Aussies, I would probably not have bought the rifle.
As I said, I do own one, I'm not telling you to buy one either, but mine is a real jewel. No regrets.
These rifles will probably not be available for much longer. I think that once their gone, that's it.
They aren't cheap and are not within reach of a lot of people. I think that these will be the last lee enfields produced and may just be the best of them. Bearhunter

[caper]

I recently bought a longbranch one at CGN as my first rifle, looking foreward to getting my paws on it. Steve makes some good points but his conspiracy theory website seemed a little too much for me to swallow. I'm new to the shooting scene but it seemed to me AIA just wanted its transition to a new market to go as smooth as possible and it backfired on them. (the dismal reports I have read about the 7.62x39 platform probably didn't help either) No big mystery there. I suspect that the .308 will do well and eventually the market will accept it for what it is, another good rifle.
As for liability, what do you think would happen if a norinco M14 blew up in someones face? Far more likely in my opinion, but hasn't dissuaded too many shooters.

[Cantom]

I recently bought a longbranch one at CGN as my first rifle, looking foreward to getting my paws on it. Steve makes some good points but his conspiracy theory website seemed a little too much for me to swallow. I'm new to the shooting scene but it seemed to me AIA just wanted its transition to a new market to go as smooth as possible and it backfired on them. (the dismal reports I have read about the 7.62x39 platform probably didn't help either) No big mystery there. I suspect that the .308 will do well and eventually the market will accept it for what it is, another good rifle.
As for liability, what do you think would happen if a norinco M14 blew up in someones face? Far more likely in my opinion, but hasn't dissuaded too many shooters.

That conspiracy theory thing was WAY overblown. I found it less than fair personally.

[AUSSIE]

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q61/VICTOR_BRAVO_2007/a10a.jpg

Love these guns dudes!! Never seen one fail to feed, fire, extract or eject ever!! You all been conned if you think these things aren't reliable!! No probs more for us Aussies to keep!! YeeeHaaaa!!!!

[Claven2]

How are the 7.62x39 versions holding up in Oz? We still haven;t got them yet here in Canada, but I suspect it's more from our government's paperwork requirements than a supplier issue.

[Stevo]

Given the way the prices of Lee-Enfields keep sky-rocketing in Canada, I think the AIA rifles will start to look more and more attractive to shooters.

The "why would I spend $800 when I can get a real LE for $400" arguement is starting to lose it's relevance.

That reminds me, I need to get out and shoot mine. Definitely need to try it out to 500m this year.

[Cantom]

Given the way the prices of Lee-Enfields keep sky-rocketing in Canada, I think the AIA rifles will start to look more and more attractive to shooters.

The "why would I spend $800 when I can get a real LE for $400" arguement is starting to lose it's relevance.

That reminds me, I need to get out and shoot mine. Definitely need to try it out to 500m this year.

Do you think they'd make a good Ranger rifle Stevo?

[Stevo]

Do you think they'd make a good Ranger rifle Stevo?


Given that they're essentially no different from a .303 No 4, I think they'd be a suitable replacement. Durability would still be a question due to their newness but I don't see any obvious weak points over the .303.

Pros:
-Chrome lined bore is a plus, should lead to longer barrel life when maintenance is not regular or thorough.
-Detachable magazine design. Given the procedures we are expected to follow when shooting (ie: remove the mag when clearing rifle), the M14 type mag and release is easier to operate and less likely to damage feed lips from repetive removal/insertion.
-Scope mount. Many Ranger's (at least in my Patrol, and I include myself in this) eyesight is not what it once was, due to age, and the ease of mounting a low power scope or RDS would be a definite advantage, IMO. When I find an S&K mount for a decent price, I'll try my Aimpoint out on my issue No. 4.

Cons:
-Cost. Obviously they're more expensive than No 4's available on the world surplus market. But not necessarily forever as the supply of rifles diminishes.
-Durability. Unproven.
-Weight. My No4 Mk4 is at least a full pound heavier than my issue LB.
-Spares. While there seems to be spares available from Canadian dealers at this time, factory spares may not be available in the future. That could be remedied by contracting a Canadian company for them, like was done with Diemaco/Colt Canada for No4 spares.

All in all, there could be worse choices for a replacement Ranger rifle. I'm pretty much convinced that the .303 No4 will soldier on for many years with no replacement. Rifles in the system that are deadlined or in poor shape will need to be rebuilt in order to keep up with demand, however.

[AUSSIE]

In Australia where the AIA M10 is widely available there has never been any question of durability with these guns! They are absolutely bombproof!

[Bearman405]

Are any of the 7.62x39 carbines in Canada?

[Stevo]

Are any of the 7.62x39 carbines in Canada?

Nope.

[limpetmine]

I bought an M10-A2 today, (in the USA) and had the opportunity to buy two.
I may yet go back and get it in a few weeks if it is still there. The $699.00 price tag, plus 8% is pretty steep. The wood on this thing looks like a handmade Pigeon grade rifle. The wood around the grip looks like burl, and the tiger striping is nothing short of fabulous. I'm not to keen on buying stuff from the 'Nam, but Enfielditis overruled me. I'm looking for an M10-B2 or -4, but it sounds like none of these made it in. Is this correct, that only the carbines got in ? Were they all -A2's or did some -A1's come in also? Mine has the stated
engraving on the side, AIA, Brisbaine, with no country or origin.
Interesting thread. I'm glad I felt the urge to head to the store at lunch today!

[Cantom]

I bought an M10-A2 today, (in the USA) and had the opportunity to buy two.
I may yet go back and get it in a few weeks if it is still there. The $699.00 price tag, plus 8% is pretty steep. The wood on this thing looks like a handmade Pigeon grade rifle. The wood around the grip looks like burl, and the tiger striping is nothing short of fabulous. I'm not to keen on buying stuff from the 'Nam, but Enfielditis overruled me. I'm looking for an M10-B2 or -4, but it sounds like none of these made it in. Is this correct, that only the carbines got in ? Were they all -A2's or did some -A1's come in also? Mine has the stated
engraving on the side, AIA, Brisbaine, with no country or origin.
Interesting thread. I'm glad I felt the urge to head to the store at lunch today!

Nice grab! None of the 7.62x39 rifles ever made it into Canada AFAIK.
Hope it feeds okay, they were reputed to have feeding issues. Maybe you can let us know!

Wonder what it would look like with a long AK mag on it? :)

[Digger]

Well I just got my 3rd AIA. I'd really like the 7.62x39 version though if they ever make it here.