B.L.R and a bunch more stenciled characters on '42 Savage No.4 Mk1*

[Longbranch303]

So we all know what BLR means, but what about the rest of the marking on this 1942 savage No. 4 Mk1* stock. Rifle is 100% all matching. Looks like it was shot dirty (quite a bit of blueing rubbed off sides of bolt). Grampa was in the Navy and we believe he picked this up on his 1946 goodwill tour of europe on the USS Houston.

Thanks in advance for any help in deciphering these markings:
29489

[Peter Laidler]

61/2-BWS is very probably certified as BLR by examiner/inspector 61 at 2 Base Workshops REME (I'd need to look up where exactly it was). However, BWS was the code for (40) Base Workshop Singapore but that was much later

[Longbranch303]

That would be extremely interesting if you could look that up. It might confirm the story behind this rifle. Im in the process of restoring it, and so far it's 100% all Savage '42, except the lower forestock, which is marked "L" and "40", which I take to be Longbranch 1940, so somewhere along the way, it got that that replaced, but all else matches.

At the moment, im debating whether it's better to keep the original, but rusted Savage magazine, or swap for a much nicer, but non-original British one I picked up. My nephew wants the original one as it's a family heirloom, so im leaning towards giving him that and swapping for the nicer one, since weapon is not 100% Savage. What do you think?

Anyway, Ive been searching around and according to this website:

REMEDistrictWorkshops (http://british-army-units1945on.co.uk/REMEDistrictWorkshops.aspx)

2 Base Workshop1946 – 1956 was in Eygpt: K and D Camps, Tel-el-Kebir, Canal Zone


Now, here’s an interesting historical tidbit from the US Navy historical website:

http://www.history.navy.mil/danfs/h8/houston-iii.htm

[the USS Houston] sailed 16 April 1946 for an extended goodwill tour of European ports, visiting cities in Scandinavia, Portugal, Italy, and Egypt.

Looks like grandpa may have picked up this No.4 in the Egyptian canal zone, rather than in England as family lore suggests…

[muffett.2008]

What makes you say the longbranch handguard was not original? my recollection was that there was parts swapping between Savage and Longbranch, therefore the part could well be correct. It's not a Garand in disguise is it? (read forestock for handguard)

[Longbranch303]

What makes you say the longbranch handguard was not original? my recollection was that there was parts swapping between Savage and Longbranch, therefore the part could well be correct. It's not a Garand in disguise is it? (read forestock for handguard)

This is a '42 Savage Mk4 No.1* with all the other wooden pieces showing the enclosed "S" stamp. I guess its possible Longbranch sent 2 year old forestocks / handguards to the Savage factory in '42 as part of their original production. Seems more likely to me that it was swapped onto this rifle later, so do you have further info on this?

[Peter Laidler]

Hey Longbranch, your rifle is as original as it's going to get with a pedigree like this. It's a genuine wartime rifle and you know it's history that's marked there for all to see. IF (and it's a big if...) the fore-end has been changed, it's been changed by some British Armourer in a dusty old tent in the middle east after it's arrived there on a ship that's ploughed it's way down the Atlantic and through the Med to get it to where it was needed. Look, if it ain't broke, don't fix it..................

[Longbranch303]

Very cool! thanks fellas for the information and encouragement here.

Barreled action is all cleaned-up, re-blued, oiled, and put back together. It's one smooth action! Waiting for the stock refinishing products, double-check the headspace, then it's off to the range!

By the way, I just found the Discovery channel "top ten" show raking the SMLE the #3 battle rifle ever, behind the M-16 and AK-47, but really it seems to me that it's historical importance and length of service makes it trump both of those others in the "big picture" of world history.

[Longbranch303]

One more thing.....…I had to share this.

Peter, I think you are correct about Tel-el-Kebir. :cheers:

I just got the butt plate off, and look what’s inside!!

29515

This is a really fantastic piece of history here!!

[Peter Laidler]

All that AND you're looking to refinish it......................... Can we all assume, sadly, that you've already obliterated the workshop markings? The trouble is that now, when you want to dispose of it or pass it down to your kids, there'll be hard nosed forumers out there wanting to buy but without the proof, they'll be saying to themselves............. 'great story' but something else will be telling them 'make sure you buy the
rifle and not the unproven story' I'd leave it well alone. Anyone else out there in forumland agree with me?

Many years ago, No5 rifles with the Malaya Command - 40 Base Workshop markings/date stamped into the butt were considered to be the least desirable. Today, with a known and proveable history, they command a premium

[jona]

What makes you say the longbranch handguard was not original? my recollection was that there was parts swapping between Savage and Longbranch, therefore the part could well be correct. It's not a Garand in disguise is it? (read forestock for handguard)

As far as I have been able to determine, Savage did not use Long Branch parts in its production. When Savage ceased producing No. 4s, all of its left over parts were sent to Long Branch, so for 1944 production Long Branch, it is very common to see Savage parts on their No. 4s.

[Brit plumber]

That would be extremely interesting if you could look that up. It might confirm the story behind this rifle. Im in the process of restoring it, and so far it's 100% all Savage '42, except the lower forestock, which is marked "L" and "40", which I take to be Longbranch 1940, so somewhere along the way, it got that that replaced, but all else matches.


It cant be dated 1940 as (Unless I'm wrong) Longbranch didnt make No.4s in 1940, in fact I dont think anyone was producing them. Wasn't 1941 the first year of production (Excluding trials No.4s)

[Longbranch303]

Can we all assume, sadly, that you've already obliterated the workshop markings?

Peter,

Heck no, no way we are going to obliterate any markings at all. How could you assume that???

We are planning to do a simple green or maybe rottenstone wipe-down of the stock (avoiding the painted BLR stencils), followed by uniform re-oiling, and then finish with a firearm specific urethane coating:

Gun Sav'R CUSTOM OIL GUNSTOCK FINISH - Brownells
(http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=5529/sku=209-101-014/Product/Satin-Gloss-14-oz-)

Likewise, we stripped down all the metal parts, 00 steel wool and Hoppe’s to remove surface rust, then hand applied Oxpho-Blue as needed.

Except for the conscientious decision to finish off the stock with a modern urethane coating (which is designed to preserve the wood yet keep the traditional look), have I in any way given you reason to think I’ve strayed from the correct procedure here?


Jona,

I have to agree and think you are right as a matter of lex parsimoniae, that it seems much more likely the 1940 stamped LB part was at some point later installed on the 1942 Savage rifle, rather than it sitting unused for two years, then transferred to the Savage plant for installation into a new Savage rifle.

[Longbranch303]

It cant be dated 1940 as (Unless I'm wrong).....

Here’s a close-up of the bottom of the forend, with the markings in question appearing on either side of the swivel band groove.

29517

[muffett.2008]

Are there any markings inside the barrel channel of the timber?

[Longbranch303]

Are there any markings inside the barrel channel of the timber?

Gentlemen,

The plot thickens!

The only other markings on the forend are the rifle’s serial number stamped laterally just below the metal at the top of the forend; and

just above the serial number (between the serial number and the metal) is….


…..a very small, lightly stamped “S” in the correct square Savage font.

So, what the heck is going on here?

[BushyFromOz]

Barreled action is all cleaned-up, re-blued, oiled, and put back together.

:confused:

[muffett.2008]

So, what the heck is going on here?
What's going on is what I wrote earlier, parts, including woodwork, were interchanged between the two factories on a supply and demand basis.

[5thBatt]

The L & the 40 (rack no??) are independent stand alone stamps & probably have nothing to do with each other, there is a L stamped in exactly the same spot & of the same style/size on my 1923 EFD MkV SMLE but i can be sure the woodwork was not made by Longbranch

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2012/01/picture002rt-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2012/01/mkvmain-1.jpg

[Longbranch303]

Well, this is getting interesting now...!

[muffett.2008]

Not wanting to get into a slanging match over this, but this subject has been dealt with before, a simple search of the archives will unearth it.
Try typing in Longbranch/Savage parts exchange, or go straight to 1941 Long Branch [Archive] - Military Surplus Collectors Forums (http://www.milsurps.com/archive/index.php/t-21013.html)

A further reference can be found in Strattons book Vol.2 No.4 and No.5 rifles, page 104, points to watch for.......Handguards with L/B markings have been found on Savage rifles, and handguards with S markings have been found on Long Branch rifles, as well. Evidently, the two factories traded wood fairly frequently, and both shipped rear handguards to the British factories as well. endQuote.

[Brian Dick]

Polyurethane is NOT the way to go Longbranch .303. Raw linseed oil is the ONLY original finish. Don't get too violent in the woodwork refinish. Wash it carefully with the simple green and dry well. Then carefully rub out the woodwork with RLO and fine steel wool, staying off the painted markings. Put as many coats as your heart desires but PLEASE don't use polyurethane. I've got arthritis in my hands and arms from removing that crap from original military rifle woodwork over the years!! Yuck.

[Peter Laidler]

I agree with Brian. NEVER but never varnish rifle woodwork. Linseed oil and if you're in the mood and good at it, just a sniff of french (or button) polish

[Longbranch303]

Havent really gotten started with the woodwork yet, but this is the specific product I was considering:

Gun Sav'R CUSTOM OIL GUNSTOCK FINISH - Brownells
(http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=5529/sku=209-101-014/Product/Satin-Gloss-14-oz-)

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2012/01/p_209101014_1-1.jpg

A super-tough, professional-looking stock finish applied in only hours without runs or sags. Fills as it coats so you won't spend extra time cutting-back or sanding in. Dries to the touch in only 45 minutes and can be recoated in as little as six hours. Specially formulated, oil-modified urethanes resist scuffs and scratches but provide the look and feel of traditional, hand-rubbed oil finishes, without all the hard work. Will not cloud or discolor with age; dries to a uniform satin finish without the aggravating splotches so common in many aerosol "furniture" finishes.

[Brian Dick]

Save that plastic stuff for your favorite hunting rifle. Go to the hardware store and get some raw linseed oil and do it correctly. The whole key is to NOT get in a hurry.

[Beerhunter]

All that AND you're looking to refinish it......................... Can we all assume, sadly, that you've already obliterated the workshop markings? The trouble is that now, when you want to dispose of it or pass it down to your kids, there'll be hard nosed forumers out there wanting to buy but without the proof, they'll be saying to themselves............. 'great story' but something else will be telling them 'make sure you buy the
rifle and not the unproven story' I'd leave it well alone. Anyone else out there in forumland agree with me?
I wholeheartedly agree. By current standards, these guns are antiques and so the standard question should be asked (as with any antique): clean off the patina and historical markings or not? Close to 100% of the time the answer is no.

Next provenance (BTW, has anyone noticed that people pronouncing it in French lately?). Without provenance an artefact is just another floggle-toggle Mk.1A, or whatever. For example, EVERYTHING that we take into our museum is labelled as it comes though the door. So that my successors do not have to spend a year (as I did) trying to ID strange bits of computer and where they have come from.

[Longbranch303]

I have linseed oil and this spray stuff on the way already from Brownells...my thought was that the latter would be a good high-tech way to better preserve the wood, but I think you are right, let's just go traditional. There's no need to rush into a high tech "solution" for a problem which may not really exist, so I think we will just put the spray on the back shelf, perhaps for another future project.