1915 Imperial marked Westinghouse manufactured Mosin

[clarkmilitaria]

Hello,

I just got back from a man's house where I picked up a nice SMLE for a good price, but had some questions about another gun he had. It is a 1915 Imperial marked, Westinghouse New England made Mosin. The bolt matches, but at one point did not, arsenal work? Also on the downside are several stock repairs. I could not make a decision because I thought that those downsides may outweigh the imperial marks and the Westinghouse manufacture. He is asking $140, any opinions on the rifle itself, and more specifically, is it original and a good price?

If any other pictures are needed let me know.

Thanks,
Jim

[clarkmilitaria]

I just did some research and found that the "E" with arrows looking bolt marking designates a New England Westinghouse bolt.

[rambo46]

If the bore is fair or better, buy it. In the northeast, that rifle is going for twice the price. Its not often seen and that looks like a good honest rifle. Good find.

[clarkmilitaria]

The bore was dark with strong rifling, but no doubt it had not been cleaned in years so I think it could turn out well. Any ideas about effects on the value due to the bolt renumbering or the stock repairs?

[Kirk]

The renumbering is typical of Soviet repairs. What is remarkable is that another Westinghouse bolt wound up with your rifle. Check all the parts; Westinghouse used half of the alphabet on their inspection marks but all the marks have the arrow. Check the receiver tang; swivels; sight leaf & base; magazine follower & magazine, etc.

[clarkmilitaria]

Westinghouse used half of the alphabet on their inspection marks but all the marks have the arrow

Would that look like any of these? Might be hard to see, but on the band it looks like an arrow with a letter by it. If you blow the barrel band picture up you can see it much better, I think it is an arrow.

[clarkmilitaria]

Would it be worth the $140 even if other parts are not Westinghouse?

Another question: In my first post, above the Imperial eagle, is that a Soviet mark? From what I have recently read, the SA on the side of the receiver pictured above means the rifle went through Finland. But in order for that to have happened, the rifle would have been captured by the Finnish as they defended themselves from the Bolsheviks trying to take over Finland in 1917, or taken back to Finland by a Finnish member of the Czarist Imperial Army after the fall of the czar. So, would it have gone through a Soviet arsenal (where the renumbering happened as well) and then ended up captured and in Finnish hands, most likely in 1917?

[vintage hunter]

The SA indicates it was captured by Finn troops most likely during the Winter War in 1939-40 and inspected/repaired and reissued to Finn troops. IMO it's worth the $140, the survival rate for US made Mosin's is bound to be low considering their long service lives. There are examples around that are vet bringbacks from Korea and no doubt some ended up in Vietnam as well. Look at it this way, it was made in the USA, sold to Russia, saw action against the Germans, more in the Russian Civil War, carried to Finnland where it was captured and turned against it's former owners and then managed to survive long enough to make the trip back home. Alot of history there. I also have a 1915 Westinghouse thats about 48,000 newer that yours, also a Finn capture.

[HOOKED ON HISTORY]

Very interesting piece. I would buy it.

[Tom in N.J.]

The boxed "SA" means Finish Army property, not how it was obtained. Finland acquired many Mosin rifles through purchase from Germany and other countries who had stocks of them prior to WWII. Some were only good for parts. In the early 60s M91s could be had for 10 to 15 dollars. I have a New England Westinghouse marked one that turned out to be a Chatenault (France, antique 1894-95) receiver numbered to the barrel, and re-matched bolt. Finish stock and many Russian small parts. It is marked twice, one big, one small with the boxed SA. The N.E.W. rifles were originally made in Chicopee Falls, MA, in the Savage-Stevens plant, leased out to the N.E.W. combine.

[vintage hunter]

:banghead:Thanks for the reminder Tom. The ''Finn capture'' term is so often used when talking about SA marked Mosin's that I tend to forget all about the ones that were purchased from other nations.

[Kirk]

Would that look like any of these? Might be hard to see, but on the band it looks like an arrow with a letter by it. If you blow the barrel band picture up you can see it much better, I think it is an arrow.

Here's B, E, F, G & R

3172131722317233172431725

[clarkmilitaria]

Is the symbol on the receiver above the imperial eagle a Soviet mark? If so, then this rifle spent time in the Soviet arsenals. Was Russia included with the "Germany and other countries" that Finland bought 91's from? If so, then I understand it may not be a capture. But, if the Soviets did not sell 91's to the Finnish, then wouldn't this rifle more likely be a capture? Because if it were bought from Germany or another country, why would it have the Soviet mark on the receiver? Germany would have had to capture it in WWI, (or I guess buy it from the Soviets later, but why would they do that?) I may be wrong, but I doubt the Soviets were marking their guns with their symbols while they were still in WWI (The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk being signed 4 months after the Soviet takeover). If the rifle was captured by Germany then sold to Finland later, it would have had to have been Soviet marked within that time period of 4 months.

[vintage hunter]

:dunno:I'm not sure what that mark is and I can find no referrence to it anywhere, mine has it too. But, none of my other Mosin's made by the Soviets do. When I first started collecting milsurps in the late 80's one of the first Mosin Nagants I owned was a Westinghouse 1891. Unfortunatly I no longer have it. It was in extraordinarily good condition(90-95%) with bright shiney bore and no import marks but IIRC it too had the mark on the barrel shank like yours and the one I have now. The condition and lack of import marks suggest it may have been one that was sold off as surpuls in the 20's and had never left the US. I've read that there were Russian inspectors roaming around in the Remington and Westinghouse factories to ensure that the rifles being built here were as good as those being made in Russian factories. This it pure speculation on my part but it's possible the mark in question may be a final inspector or acceptance mark.

[clarkmilitaria]

Well, I just bought it, $140 is a great price in my opinion for that much history and a good rifle. The bore is great, shiny with strong rifling. At least the rear sight is Westinghouse also, I don't know about the rest. Thanks for all of the input.

[Homer2]

I hope you bought it. That's probably a $300 rifle with tons of great history. Finn rifles are mix masters, so I wouldn't change a thing. Trying to get all Westinghouse parts would not help the value, and may actually hurt it. An all original matching NEW can bring $1200. Typical Finns are $250-350. Yours looks above average.

[HOOKED ON HISTORY]

Well, I just bought it, $140 is a great price in my opinion for that much history and a good rifle. The bore is great, shiny with strong rifling. At least the rear sight is Westinghouse also, I don't know about the rest. Thanks for all of the input.


Well done. Another Finn is now in safe hands.