Original 1911's ???

[DaveN]

I started collecting in Milsurps with GARANDS and know the differance between an original and a restored and the price differance. Though if not told by seller I most likely can't tell.
It seems in 1911's if a part or parts are not correct ie barrel, safety you know any number of small parts, a owner can find and shazam it can be an original. Or can it? I know if I found one say a 1940 something and all but the barrel was correct I would have no problem replacing it with the correct one (if possible) but if selling I would let buyer know. Yes? Or is it not as important in 1911 land?

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[Johnny Peppers]

By replacing parts you can't make it original, but you can make it correct. It was not unusual for past owners of original pistols to change parts to suit themselves like barrels or grips, and when these are parts that would never have been on the pistol originally I see no problem with changing them. I don't see changing parts on a military rebuild to try and make it original. Original Model 1911 pistols were blued and came with diamond checkered wood grips. When these pistols were rebuilt the finish was changed to phosphate, and in all probability the new grips were plastic. It serves no purpose to go to the expense of finding diamond checkered wood grips or an original type barrel for this rebuild.

[dsk]

Like Johnny said, swapping out incorrect parts with the correct ones will make it all-correct, but by definition it cannot be considered all-original unless the actual original parts were being kept with the pistol somehow. Like many collectors I don't consider it to be a big deal to swap out a part or two to make a pistol 100% correct again, but the ethical collector would disclose what was done to a future owner. Then again, by the time another owner has come along the story will likely be that it's 100% original anyway, so as the buyer you always need to match wear patterns.

Having said all that, taking a pistol that has had major changes (like a refinish) or is in merely fair-good condition and trying to make it all-correct is a complete waste of time and money.

[Harlan (Deceased)]

1911's are only ORIGINAL once - When it is original, the same for all collectible milsurps -

In my experience, M1 carbines are the most difficult to find in actual original condition due to the extensive rebuild and update programs that by far the majority went through after WWII, and ten plus manufactures and post war replacement parts were completely mixed before assembling again. Due to the extremely high prices that 'original' M1 carbines bring these days (BECAUSE they are so rare in reality) , it's become common practice for people to try to bring theirs back to original condition, and there's so much competition for 'correct' parts for so many doing 'restorations'. There are now many completely fake or restamped parts available, especially for the smaller manufacturers. Many 'restorers' restore as a hobby, but a great majority of restored guns seem to be resold soon after they're done with their hobby restorations. You need to become very familiar when buying an M1 carbine that is sold as original, but it's not very difficult with experience - most restorers won't get the type of parts correct for the time period, even if they get the 'correct' manufacture because revisions of parts was so frequent, and manufactures shared many parts. I think many Garands fall closely behind due to their extensive rebuilds and updates, and the high premiums for originals today.

If buying any gun that is being sold as a ORIGINAL, a lot of research and inspection should be done by a real expert. If being sold as an original the seller can easily claim they didn't know, and many times they don't know the guns are not really original. It's a minefield when getting into these, Dave, but sometimes common sense still applies when looking at finish/wear patterns, etc, even if you don't know the correct parts. With the electronic age of selling guns there are often 'paper trails' left on the serial numbers, and unfortunately following the history and sales through gun sites it is showing more and more that guns are being rebuilt. All too often the history of gun sales can be researched and you find 'Originals' that were 'mixmasters' only a few months before. Purchases from gun sites can be followed and sometimes the same buyer's history records a certain gun (mixed) and then not long later it shows up for sale from him or another person fully 'Original' - Regardless, it's wrong, and 'restored' is nothing like 'original'.

[Scott Gahimer]

I prefer to use the term corrected instead of correct parts for pistols that have had parts swapped out. Finish and many small parts can be authenticated as original to the pistol with some knowledge, a lot of experience and a very thorough inspection. Many pistol small parts have wear patterns that mate up with the wear patterns of other parts to indicate whether parts have been changed. Finish type, color, wear, aging, oxidation, etc. all should give an indication as to whether parts are actually correct for the serial range of the pistol. That's where the knowledge and experience comes on. One has to have seen seen enough known original pistols to recognize whether all these things add up to a part being original. It all boils down to opinion in many cases. For an opinion to have any useful value, it has to be offered by someone who has examined enough pistols to know what they look like when they are original. If I were attempting to buy something I, personally, could not authenticate (which i rarely ever do), I would seek the opinion of someone I believed to be a trusted expert, and not believe a seller or any anonymous person offering free "advice" online. One never knows the motive for the free advice/recommendation to buy.

When buying a Garand or M1 carbine, I have always sought out individuals I know to be experienced collectors who can spot things others simply do not have the expertise to see. Reference books and online information, at best, can only indicate what may be "correct". If one is seeking "original", that takes a hands-on inspection by someone with some knowledge and experience.

[DaveN]

Thanks Guy's I forgot about this thread. Your points are well received by me and I'm sure will be of help to others that read it who are in the same boat.

[Bill Ricca]

One of the problems I have with this type of firearm is the designation. I often get a caller asking for a "1911 xyz". My answer is I do not have it. He will then say something like "It is on your web site" or "You had them at the gun show".

That makes me realize he does not specify which model and I then answer that I have only 1911A1 xyz's.

My guess is 90% of the time a guy is speaking about a common everyday commercial or a more available WWII version, he will refer to it as a 1911. In the minds of most of them today, everything is 1911.

I have the same problem with the 03A3.

[A square 10]

i agree with using correct nomenclature to be specific about what you have and what you want , in discussions it seems the tangents are rampent when the clarity of the question is generically incorect ,

[kraigwy]

I'm not too sure about the "Correct" 1911a1s. To me correct means all USGI parts. The 1911s were made to allow interchangable parts. The term "orginal" as in all parts that came with the gun is unrealistic to me. I question that term

I'll relate a couple stories, and this is just one guy, I'm sure there are thousands of simular incidents.

I went to MP school in 1966 at Ft Gordon, this other guy and I screwed up and were put on detail cleaning all the schools 1911s.
We broke down all the part to the pistols and put them in an assembly line. We then went through cleaning all the parts. After wards we went through the guns starting with the frame and going down the line adding parts until we had a complete gun. Then start all over. We didnt come close to getting the orginal parts to the orginal frame. When we were through we had Correct Guns but I doubt there were any orginal guns.

Now fast forward until the 80s. I was in the National Guard, running the AK NG Marksmanship unit. At the time the Guard had Combat Matches where you had to use "arms room" weapons and unit teams. It was difficult for shooters to draw a Unit weapon for training, but the marksmanship weapons came under different regulations. I ordered enough 1911a1s to issue 4 to each BN and seperate company. In addition I orderd 10 for the state team.

Before issuing the pistols to the units I had my best pistol shooters take the guns to the range, switch out parts until they came up with the 10 most accurate pistols for the State Team. Again, there was no concern about getting the "orginal parts" to the frame, but these were all USGI parts, which to me, make them correct.

I know I was one individual, and one out of 50 states, In talking to those running marksmanship programs from other states, I found I was not the only one switching parts to find a more accurate pistol.

1911/1911a1s have been around for about 100 years, I find it hard to believe there are many "orginal" pistols out there. Surely others during the last 100 years have been switching parts.

This is something one needs to take into consideration when someone ask a premium price saying the pistol is orginal. How can you tell.

I will confess, this didn't only occur with goverment issue 1911s. My personal 1911a1 was put together to make it more accurate by my best pistol shooter. Just so happens its a colt frame with a Union Switch and Single Company Slide.

To my knowledge except for the slide and frame, its difficult to tell what company made what parts. Also there is no way to tell if, lets say a Colt slide on a colt frame is the same slide that came from the factory.

Just some thoughts.

[Scott Gahimer]

I taught at the U.S. Army MP School and can assure you most if not all the pistols used at training facilties had already had their parts swapped out before you ever showed up there. Additionally, pistols that were still in service by the 1980's had little chance of still being all original.

However, there are plenty of pistols with original parts that came home with war vets at the end of their time in service. Close examination of parts is required to determine originality. Wear patterns, type and hue of finish, style of parts, oxidation, aging. etc. all add up when someone has inspected enough pistols to know what parts in each individual serial range look like.

Pistols changing hands several times and being heavily used normally result in parts being changed. However, many of these 67-100 year old pistols were issued to few, or only one individual...who, in turn brought it home with them. Many of those pistols saw very little use and were put up until they were finally sold to a collector who recognized an original pistol.

Granted, some collectors are parts swappers. However, many collectors (myself included) believe in preserving pistols just how they are acquired. Some believe they can swap parts and boost value., but any highly experienced collector should know enough about how to inspect a pistol for originality.

The problem most newer collectors face todayis that they've not collected long enough to have acquired many all original pistols directly from the source and they simply haven't seen enough original pieces to know exactly what they look like.