M38 Carcano Carbine, 1939

[Midmichigun]

Guys,
As luck would have it, I came across a boltless M38 Carcano!:thup:

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3871.jpg

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3870.jpg

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3869.jpg
I am missing 3 screws along with the bolt.

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3867.jpg
Great photo of the peeling paint! If you look at some of the photos, you can see that they managed to splash some of the paint onto the blue!:o

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3860.jpg

---------- Post added at 10:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:33 PM ----------

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3872.jpg

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3864.jpg

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3880.jpg

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3879.jpg

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3878.jpg
The year is 1939. I found this "39" also stamped on the underside, I guess it is a year stamp also???

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3876.jpg
Inner arsenal/ inspection marks. As you can tell, the blueing is great on this rifle!

http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3874.jpg
The buttstock is the worst part of the rifle... and has left stains on the wood. The door opens, so it does function!:thup:

[jmoore]

:thup:Looks like you have a good project. But I was expecting something a bit shorter. Generally these are referred to as M38 "short rifles". The carbine is yet more stubby. (Might help you find the correct nose cap screws as well.) The 7,35 round I like, but ammo availability is poor.

In actual fact I may have one of your screws as my M38 carbine's nose cap screw is too short. So I've a part to find as well.

[Midmichigun]

Jmoore,
Please take me to school, and I would appreciate a Moderator changing the title of my post if I am in error.

I don't know much about the Carcano... did no research (beyond looking for bolts).... and simply bought it! I was under the impression it was a carbine... Big oops for me! :)

Should I be looking for a regular rifle bolt for it then?

What is the deal with the brown paint? Should I leave as is... or strip it.... My impression is that the finish is actually BLO on a European Walnut...

Back story is that I saw it Saturday on a rack with a bunch of M1/ M14/ 1903 stocks. Asked the price.... the lady figured it was "something Italian". I saw the Terni stamp, and figured it was some sort of Carcano (?)! The price was pretty low.... so I drove back on Sunday... wherein the price was up $15.00.... But I did get it for the Saturday price...

I have several "SA" stamps on the metal... my impression is that this shows a finnish provenance?

I have been able to find many parts for it via the 'net... but any help is appreciated! I am posting here, to gain insight on what I stumbled onto! :)

[Patrick Chadwick]

As jmoore has pointed out, you have a short rifle "fucile corto M38". Made in 1939, year 17 of the fascist era - as shown by the Roman numerals XVII. And the number T7759 is in the right range for Terni production of that period. The FP on the barrel is probably the supplier F. Pedrotti.

The bolt will be basically the same as on a normal M91, but with a turned-down bolt handle as used on the "moschetto M91". In fact, since the Italians made some of these short rifles by converting M91s, including bending down the bolt handle, I see no reason why you should not do the same.

With the wood, you are in luck. You have what I call a treacle rifle - the treacle being the brown paint/floor varnish that has been sloshed over the wood. And which has probably helped to preserve it! If you dismantle the rifle and strip off the paint with a non-aqueous jelly-type paint stripper (use gloves and natural bristle brushes!) you may find that this
33534
turns into this

33535

- requiring only a wipe-over with a rag moistened with natural turpentine and a few drops of pure linseed oil to produce a very pleasing finish. But do not, at any stage, use wire wool or sandpaper on the stock, or soak it in water, as that will cause the arsenal ring stamp on the wood to disappear. And this stamp, if you clean the wood as suggested, may provide important information.

As to SA marks. The Finns stamped SA as a property mark on the barrel ring. They had no need to stamp SA on small parts. So if you have SA marked on various components, I suspect that this is no more than a parts supplier identification mark. But a clear SA on the barrel ring does indeed indicate Finnish ownership.

Have fun, and let us see how it turns out!

:wave:
Patrick

[Midmichigun]

Guys,
Great information. As to the bolts, I found a source who says the following:

"Vintage Italian military Carcano bolts. We have both Carbine (bent down bolt handle) and Rifle (straight handle) available. Interchangeable with both the 6.5mm and 7.35mm caliber firearms. "

My impression is that I can either use the Carbine (in my short rifle) or the Rifle (and perhaps bend the handle down) from this source?

As to the paint, is this then "factory" or applied by the Finns (I appear to be SA marked). It sounds like this condition has been noted before with the Carcano's? Should I cover this great wood, or cover with brown paint!

What type of slings are available. My source lists "M91 rifle" slings, but doesn't mention if they fit short rifles.

[vintage hunter]

The correct bolt for your rifle would have a turned down handle. The paint was most likely applied by a former owner after it left military service.

[Patrick Chadwick]

As to the paint, is this then "factory" or applied by the Finns (I appear to be SA marked).


Neither factory nor applied by the Finns. Painted stock wood is a sign of that notorious fudger known as Bubba.:thdown:
As far as I know, no original military rifle manufacturer ever applied paint to stock wood. Most common is linseed oil, sometimes shellac, urushi lacquer, tung oil, linseed oil/wax mix - all have been used, but PAINT :eek: - I think not. And you can see why - it is flaking off.

Should I cover this great wood, or cover with brown paint!
Thou canst not be serious! :nono:Get rid of that crud, and let's see the wood. If the before/after photos of the treacle rifle didn't convince you, I give up!


:wave:
Patrick

[Midmichigun]

Thou canst not be serious! :nono:Get rid of that crud, and let's see the wood. If the before/after photos of the treacle rifle didn't convince you, I give up!


:wave:
Patrick

HA HA! They call me "Billy the Beltsander" on other forums! :madsmile::madsmile:

Seriously though Here are some cartouches that I found under the "gack"....
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3902.jpg
It says Terni, and I am trying to work out the rest! :confused:
This appears to be a PB...
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3900.jpg
I can't make out this one... I thought it was a boxed SA, but upon closer examination... it isn't..
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3901.jpg
I do have staining under the paint at the buttplate area...
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3909.jpg
No way to deal with it beyond bleaching the wood.... not a good choice... so I am probably going to just leave it.
Overall photo of the stock with a basic coat of BLO!
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/100_3911.jpg

[jmoore]

Wood looks about right, colorwise, and is in good overall shape. If the bore's that good, then you will have a very nice specimen. Fortunately, bolts aren't generally serial numbered (there are exceptions- but not for this model) so if you get one that works in your rifle and looks of proper vintage it'll be a fine save. (The pre WWII bolts have a nicer finish usually, sometimes with color case hardening evident.) The bolt's extraction cams sometimes need work or swapping about to get good primary extraction and smooth operation, but anything is better than nothing at this point.

[Midmichigun]

Jmoore,
Thanks for the suggestion on the bolt!
As you can see the upper handguard color doesn't match the rest of the stock. Not a big deal.
I have a line on my missing screws, but it appears that I have to buy the end nose, to get the screws! Middle band is also missing its screw, and I might have to purchase an entire band to get a replacement. However, Springfield Sporters does list parts separate... I have heard mixed reviews for them especially on the customer ordering end.
The bore doesn't look that great, but I am still soaking the crud out. But it may be a shooter still.

[smellie]

You guys all live in the Excited States and you are so DARNED lucky!!!!!!

Springfield Sporters has enough Carcano parts to fix any number of the things and the prices are great. They have all the parts for the TS-38 and they have complete bolts, both types.

There should not be much trouble in fitting a Bolt. The Italians kept things VERY tight in the Bolt Department. The likeliest problem you might encounter would be a bolt which is a tad too tight. Quickest fix for that is just to dress a few thou off the upper surface of your Shellholder when you FL size your brass after the first firing. Factory ammo you can generally cram in somehow; it comes out a lot easier than it goes in; that's how you know when to dress that shellholder.

I just wish we could talk some sense into your and our Idiot Politicians and Power-mad Petty Bureaucrats: WE aren't The Enemy..... and our money spends very well. We just aren't allowed to get parts for ANYTHING from a US source, unless we order it through a Dealer.....who has it sent to a Broker...... and then to him........ and you end up paying $15 for a $3 part...... if most of them can even be bothered with our small bits and pieces. Right now, I need so MANY parts which are available plentifully and inexpensively in the USA...... and likely there are another 50,000 like me in this country. For the most part, the Canadian importers love it like this. This country has a long tradition of keeping the competition OUT and the prices HIGH... and most of us don't like it.

Apart from my rant (which helps nobody), I do hope this is some help.
.

[Midmichigun]

Smellie,
I haven't purchased a bolt or sling for the rifle yet. I am debating on the $$, since I am SOOOO close on finishing my 1920, 1903 Springfield.
I would just hate to get caught up with, "Gee we sold the last bolt".... type scenario... if I don't move on it soon.
I am not a Carcano collector, but may look into it further. These are interesting rifles, with a pretty nifty history. As the other MAJOR WWII weapons continue to become over collected, eventually these should go up in price a bit.... for right now tho... I think I have found something I can afford to collect!! LOL!
I agree 100% on your assessment of Govt interference... :)

[Patrick Chadwick]

I am delighted to see that the treacle rifle turned out so well. As jmoore wrote, the wood looks fine, so leave it as it is and just feed it a few drops of linseed oil every week or so.

[Midmichigun]

Folks,
How exciting! I was able to source a Carcano bolt this past week!
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/101_4089.jpg
I did opt for the turned down bolt as suggested.
Here is another photo of the semi completed rifle...
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/101_4088.jpg
I also sourced clips for the rifle... and some screws....
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss141/midmichigun/M38%20Carcano%20Carbine/101_4090-Copy.jpg
Not its onto slings and bayonets.

[Bionicback321]

I was able to get all the Carcano parts I needed for my M38 at Numrich. They sell the middle band with screw and ring for the sling.