Australian L4's

[DOD 7.62]

Hi all, does anyone know the history of 7.62 Bren conversions for Australia? As I understand Lithgow only made barrels and mag's as Enfield wouldn't give them the rights to the conversion process. So what did they do? Did they buy complete guns or did they just buy the converted bodies from Enfield and build them using other MA components? How many were there? Any info on the subject appreciated.

Cheers

DOD

[Peter Laidler]

Any other info on the subject............ THere is MUCH info on the subject, hundreds of pages but time and space is short.

Aust purchased almost 1100 L4 guns complete plus some stockpiles bought back from Malaya/South Vietnam(?).
They made barrels as there was no patent protection on them as they were already licenced to make them and it was just a calibre change
Magazines were the same but Oz was careful not to copy the Enfield patented design. Sterling allowed Lithgow to make mags for the F1 free of charge on condition that there were no foreign sales of magazines. Foreign buyers of F1's had to get magazines from Sterling
Oz COULD do the conversion to L4 but there was a huge royalty payment to make. This was to prevent Lithgow undercutting Enfield - as she did with the L1A1's - on foreign sales.
Enfield did formulate the conversion of a Mk1 gun (the experimental L4A7) just for Australia but by then......

Hold your horses because this long sorry saga is about to be published shortly

[DOD 7.62]

Thanks Peter,

Good to here the books not far away, I'll get the full story when it goes to print no doubt, thank you for the info in the meantime. Was / Is there a serial number range for the 1100 complete guns supplied?

Regards

Daniel

[Peter Laidler]

Not that I know of. They were a mix throughout the range because some were 'new' conversions, some old stocks and some from the 60's

[trooper554877]

I know the L4's where a cherished piece of kit for the guys at shooting comps. They won nearly every MG shoot until they finally withdew them form service an dthe last I saw was late 90's early 2000. In a reserve unit. Kept up to then as an enemy weapon with Blank fire barrel. the only disadvantage was the number of mags to be carried. they where issued with a box of 10 but with front line ammo issue being 800 on the gun and about 400 interspersed in the section it became a hassle to carry the mags. Thats why the belt fed was easier to carry and disperse the ammo load. IMHE
Cheers
Ned

[Peter Laidler]

I didn't realise that they'd lasted that long in Oz. All the Infantry Companies had them in Malaya for jungle warfare as the M60 and GPMG/L7 belts made movement really difficult. You could sort-of fit a 44 pattern water bottle pouch onto the L7 to take a 60 round belt but you culdn't do the same to the M60's.

Yep, the Bren was certainly the thing for the jungle

[trooper554877]

I didn't realise that they'd lasted that long in Oz. All the Infantry Companies had them in Malaya for jungle warfare as the M60 and GPMG/L7 belts made movement really difficult. You could sort-of fit a 44 pattern water bottle pouch onto the L7 to take a 60 round belt but you culdn't do the same to the M60's.

Yep, the Bren was certainly the thing for the jungle

yeah for sure they kept the ammo clean and dry and where certainly used or issued as a second gun in the section in the tropics. 2/4RAR definately used them in the late 80's for this purpose. Thye where not disliked by any stretch of the imagination it was just that the frontline ammo issue changed and was a bit hard to cope in mags. definately did not detract from a beautiful weapon and besides the mag 58 would be my LMG of choice.

cheers
Ned

[tankhunter]

And as far as I know. Apart from Museums in Oz being offered a few free of charge.
NO guns were allowed to be sold off to the Public for deactivating & the like.
All went for the chop under the guillotine.....:crying:

The cleaning kit's webbing equipment & some mags were sold off though.
Not as nice as a complete gun though!......:(

[tombear]

Since I've got a de-ac one did the NZ L4s come from the same sources as the Australian ones. Or where they all new made?

ATB

Tom

I've picked up a few Aussie Bren bits, Tool roll, straight 30 rd mag, L2A1 type long sling, pouches, manual.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2012/07/ausl4rolllabelled-1.jpg

[Peter Laidler]

Are you saying that you've got a deactivated L4 or a deactivated NZ L4 Tombear? I operated with NZ troops during the same era and outside NZ, they were sourced from pooled Ordnance stocks but internally, they were a one-off purchase with spare parts presumably being supplied by Australia in the same way as spare parts for the L1A1's. Don't forget that there were only a few parts that were specific to the L4 series so it didn't cause a logistical problem

[tombear]

Hi Peter
As he knew I was looking for one Mike Priest had one of the live guns he had got from New Zealand chopped for me. I could have got the wrong end of the stick but I.m pretty sure he said New Zealand.

The body is a standard Enfield done Mk 3 with the original "BREN Mk 3" struck out and with "GUN M/G 7.62 mm L4A4" above and "MG 43GA" below. Behind the sight is UE 73 over and A19775 below UE55 A326 which is struck through. There's a profusion of marks near the barrel nut on the left and 79 arrow H followed by a large 72 on the right.

The butt slide is also a Mk 3 and has UE 73 A 19775 along side the selector switch. Behind the pistol grip is a Z and arrow

The barrel is marked CF 7.62mm A19775 a Enfield D mark 72 MG 5526 On the top of the barrel is FB351. No markings have been removed or struck out although there aresome are very hard to read small ones.

The barrel nut is rather worn and has A19775 in electric pencil.

Since he didn't want to chop a perfectly good 7.62 block Mike chopped a bog standard .303 and put that in. Irronicaly I did once have a brand new 7.62 block held for me in NZ but the amount of hassle it would have took to get it fitted put me off doing anything about it.

I'd actually prefare for it to be UK issue as it would fit in the collection better but unless he meant it came from a dealer in NZ I've always assumed it was one of their service guns. It came over in 2004.

It could really do with a full cosmetic refurb as its showing it's use. To that end I've collected all the parts you can legally replace in the uk all shiny new, woodwork, sights, mag well cover, screws and nuts. Just need someone to do the hard bits!

Can do pics if anyone's interested.

ATB

Tom


Are you saying that you've got a deactivated L4 or a deactivated NZ L4 Tombear? I operated with NZ troops during the same era and outside NZ, they were sourced from pooled Ordnance stocks but internally, they were a one-off purchase with spare parts presumably being supplied by Australia in the same way as spare parts for the L1A1's. Don't forget that there were only a few parts that were specific to the L4 series so it didn't cause a logistical problem

[Peter Laidler]

Just strip it, bead blast it and put it in the hot phosphate tank. (there will be a sheet metal fabrication place somewhere local) Paint it with satin black exhaust paint and put it in the oven at 200+ degrees for a couple of hours and it'll come out like new. Thereafter, you're not going to use and abuse it like an Army gun anyway.

Thinking back, I don't think I saw L4's in NZ as the LMG's were were using at the time were .303" Brens and L2A1's. On ops of course, we all had L4's. The Australian supplied L2, 30 round rifle magazines seemed to work in our L4 Brens OK

[tombear]

Well that sounds doable as they say, apart from with the barrel pinned on fitting it in the oven isn't a runner unless I get a job at the pizza parlour....

Somewhere I still have that can of suncronite a certain party once sent me.

I also have that 1945 matching serials Mk 3 to do as well, oops.

ATB

Tom

[Woodsy]

New Zealand certainly had quite a few L4's and they were in service with the Territorials well into the 1990's but were dropped by the Regulars in the '80's. Most were exported but a small number were given to the Army museum who kept two or three for themselves and sold the reamining six or seven to local collectors. My one was the last one they had for sale. They were all Enfield converted L4A4's. All of the new spares that I have seen for them have also been Enfield rather than Aussie parts.

[tombear]

Yup, all the parts on mine are straight Enfield made one. Are their any specific to NZ marks I should be looking for?
I vaguely remember something about where the serial ison the butt slide? I may be dreaming that one....

ATB

Tom

[Peter Laidler]

We did start putting the serial number of the gun on the left side of the butt slide but this could only be engraved and NOT stamped there as it was a bit thin and could/would distort. I was involved in the investigation to impliment this change. It was because some workshops didn't have the old original deep engraving machine to engrave the rear of the butt slide by the rear buffer and in any case, the buffer tube part was problematical and obstructed the rotary cutter ......... anyway.....

Stamping the number in the original position also caused problems especially with used but reconditioned butt slides because the old original number might have been filed off several times and the material made thinner. There was a school of thought that there wasn't even a real reason for the butt slide to be numbered! The butt slides fitted and worked/functioned or they didn't. There were no real diamensional or operation problems. Anyway, we decided that it could go on the butt slide. This was in the late70's and if you look at the miscellaneous instructions you will see my initials as part of the drawing reference.

I only saw NZ L4's on operations but while in NZ we had 303 guns. I don't remember L4's in the big Ordnance Depot at the NDOD either but this was in the 60's and those on ops had no specific NZ marks, nor did our L4's with the Battalions although I can only speak for 8 and 4 RAR. But in my opinion, the L4 was the best variation of the magnificent beast....... without doubt!

[tombear]

Thanks for that Peter!

Here's the butt slide engraving on mine,

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2012/08/serial-1.jpg

Sorry it took so long to reply, been preoccupied with my silly little balsa and tissue planes!

ATB

Tom

[Peter Laidler]

That's the place............ Another reason was that the butt slide could easily be salvaged and re-used by simply barring out the old number and there was plenty of space to re-number new.

[Brit plumber]

The NZ guns came from a specific contract with Enfield.The remaining guns I know of are listed here.

UE73A19699
UE73A19703
UE73A19719
UE73A19721
UE73A19722
UE73A19723
UE73A19725
UE73A19726
UE73A19728
UE73A19732
UE73A19743
UE73A19745
UE73A19747
UE73A19750
UE73A19769
UE73A19774
UE73A19775
UE73A19804
UE73A19806
UE73A19831
UE73A19837
UE73A19840
UE73A19845
UE73A19848
UE73A19852
UE73A19860


Its also possible that Aus also had a contract with Enfield for L4s too,

UE72A18539
UE72A18605
UE72A18841

[Peter Laidler]

Australia did have L4 guns but these were before the UE73A time as we had them in the 60's. I understand that eventually Oz purchased over 1000 new build (on ex Mk3 bodies of course) L4A4's plus the stocks she acquired when the Poms pulled out of Malaya. NZ also had some at the same time although in my time there we had .303" Mk1's and 2's

When I was making a few 'semi-official' enquiries about NZ Brens, it transpired that NZ acquired some Aust L4's in the mid-late mid 70's when Aust was reducing the size of the Infantry after SV-N and national service and the M60 was going out in favour of the L7.

[Brian Dick]

Interesting thread. Thanks to all.

[Peter Laidler]

L4 7.62mm CHS. Unit level: 1.628" GO. 1.637 NO GO

Field and Base standard 1.628" GO. 1.634" NO GO

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