My new Ross Rifle Mk.III

[Oatmeal Savage]

Well my Ross Rifle arrived today. The stock is pretty well toast. Which will give me a chance to exercise my limited skills to repair it. Except for the paint the metal looks good. Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Oatmeal Savage]

and more photos. There doesn't appear to be a rivet in the bolt. I performed the PP "sure fire" test, from the site Library, and bolt snapped home quite nicely when I pressed the trigger. There is a surprising lack of markings on this rifle, so far I have found just "H G" in front of the serial number. Someone shortened the stock comb, it looks like the bottom of the butt stock is held on by two screws. The only metal it appears to be missing are the nose cap, rear sling swivel, the front sight hood w/ screws. My first impressions of fondeling the MkIII is the length of the barrel and the skookum rear sights. These rifles must have been tack drivers when they were new. The barrel is in good condition, this one will be a shooter, but not a tack driver.

Thanks
K

[tiriaq]

The HG + serial numbers indicates Home Guard, they serialed their rifles, and many Mk. III rifles were supplied during WW2. The Canadian serial would have been on the right side of the buttstock. Send a PM to Klunk, and see if he has any nosecaps left. Your rifle has a swivel in front of the magazine. If this is original, the rifle is a fairly early one. An early Mk. III would have had a stamped nosecap, as opposed to a forged one; they are not interchangable. All Mk. III nosecaps are hard to find, stamped even more so. If you can get any nosecap, grab it. Realistically, I don't think that this stock is restorable to an issue appearance, though, but perhaps another stock will come along. The rifle also appears to have the earlier pattern boltstop. Many were fitted with a larger diameter one to reduce battering of the left rear locking lug. Is there an E or LC on the top of the barrel breech? Your rear sight is a less common variation - the aperture is very small in diameter, most are larger. Better for target shooting. Just a thought - as a Home Guard rifle, I wonder if the black paint is the remains of a Suncorite finish applied in the UK? The rivet was installed in bolts of rifles in Canadian service during WW2. You have determined that the bolt is correctly assembled, so don't worry about it. As the bolt is closed, you can see the lugs rotate to lock. How is the bore? Will probably need a good cleaning. If the bore is decent, the rifle should shoot well.

[Oatmeal Savage]

tiriaq,

Thanks for the information. The stock is pretty toasty, so I have nothing to lose by trying to fix it, my brother is a carver de bois and will assist me. I will ask Klunk if he has any nose caps, Joe Turner may part with one, so I will ask Joe first. On the breech there are crossed flags with the letters DPC. The hole on the peep sight is tiny, about 1mm. If the paint is from the HG, I should leave the paint alone and concentrate on removing the varnish from the wood. Anyone have a sight hood or a sling swivel?

[green]

The HG prefix indicates this rifle was made for commercial sale to Cdn "Home Guard" units 1914-15. The home guard was a totally unofficial org made up of volunteers who bought their own arms.

[Cantom]

tiriaq,

Thanks for the information. The stock is pretty toasty, so I have nothing to lose by trying to fix it, my brother is a carver de bois and will assist me. I will ask Klunk if he has any nose caps, Joe Turner may part with one, so I will ask Joe first. On the breech there are crossed flags with the letters DPC. The hole on the peep sight is tiny, about 1mm. If the paint is from the HG, I should leave the paint alone and concentrate on removing the varnish from the wood. Anyone have a sight hood or a sling swivel?

Nice score. Saw this on epay last night.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260060693839&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=016

[glycerin]

Oatmeal: I once removed bubba's black spray paint and found a very nice blue finish underneath. Is your barrel 30.5inches? I have an original stock(no handguard), no metal, measures 27.25 in. from forward receiver screw to end of stock. Pictures would take time and a friend's cooperation. Also have M10 safety, trigger mechanism, trigger guard, and what appears to be swivel desoldered from midband. Good luck with restoration.

[Oatmeal Savage]

Thanks for the information, :-) Yes the barrel is full length, it sure looks long without the wood. I can't wait to shoot it, though it may have to wait until the New Year. I have to finish the Westley Richards Monkey Tail Carbine first!


Oatmeal: I once removed bubba's black spray paint and found a very nice blue finish underneath. Is your barrel 30.5inches? I have an original stock(no handguard), no metal, measures 27.25 in. from forward receiver screw to end of stock. Pictures would take time and a friend's cooperation. Also have M10 safety, trigger mechanism, trigger guard, and what appears to be swivel desoldered from midband. Good luck with restoration.

[tiriaq]

Learn something new every day. I assumed that "Home Guard" referred to the British WW2 organization, not a Cdn. WW1 version. I suppose another example would be the Montreal Home Guard, with their Savage 99 .303 muskets. Where were the Ross equipped Home Guard units raised? I saw another HG stamped Ross from the Bancroft area last week. Its serial was 4 digit, while Oatmeal Savage's is close to 13 000. Are these actual serials, starting at 1? That is a lot of privately purchased Rosses, at a time when the Cdn. Army was having difficulty acquiring the quantity needed.
The British used Suncorite to finish metal parts, starting during WW2 and continuing. Canada didn't, so the paint on your rifle won't be issue.
Had a chance to give the bore a good cleaning?

[Oatmeal Savage]

I haven't cleaned it yet. I have been thinking of plugging the barrel and spraying a mild solvent into the bore and leaving it over night. I am going to strip the wood first.

Well I have stripped the stock, What wood was used for Ross stocks? Weird it smells like rosewood. The upper hand guard is very light coloured.

glycerin, what did you use to strip the paint? Here is a photo of the stripped stock.

[tiriaq]

Stocks are walnut or birch.

[glycerin]

Oatmeal:on metal, I used hardware store paint stripper, requires several coats, a stiff plastic windshield scrapper, steel wool, q-tips and tooth picks. If you had time and a pipe to submerge in, even kerosene or paint thinner might work. That's an ugly buttstock repair, if it isn't solid, consider using CTC marine epoxy(or brownell's epoxy), but only if wood isn't oil soaked. Screws can be replaced with wood dowels.

[green]

WWI HG were officially civilian rifle clubs. Did a survey of HG Mk IIIs and they were in the 12-13000 range IIRC and I believe they were in the Ross sporter serial # progression. In 1914 Sir Charles was actively seeking foreign orders, Russia for one.

[tiriaq]

It would make sense that they are numbered in with the sporters. The small aperture rear sight also fits with the rifle club connection. I'll double check the serial on the one from Bancroft.

[green]

Small aperture is first pattern. Aperture enlarged later.
Unit markings observed
NIAGARA FALLS
##

CY
##
(County of York?)

BofM
##
(Bank of Montreal?)

HG
60

TPF
##

HHGRA
(Hamilton HG Rifle Assoc)

UCC
(Upper Canada College)

EC
##
(Essex County?)

US consul in Niagara Falls complained of aggressive patrolling by HG on border in 1914.
One seen in 14 and 15M range.
HG rifles did not have roundel , mark or serial # stamped on butt.

[Oatmeal Savage]

I removed the paint and the stripper never touched the bluing. Go figure.



Oatmeal:on metal, I used hardware store paint stripper, requires several coats, a stiff plastic windshield scrapper, steel wool, q-tips and tooth picks. If you had time and a pipe to submerge in, even kerosene or paint thinner might work. That's an ugly buttstock repair, if it isn't solid, consider using CTC marine epoxy(or brownell's epoxy), but only if wood isn't oil soaked. Screws can be replaced with wood dowels.

[Oatmeal Savage]

Update. I have cut out the toasted parts of the stock and am fitting the replacement inserts. I will post more pics.

[Oatmeal Savage]

Here is the stock so far. I am not a woodworker, but it is coming along. I mixed the glue with walnut dust then I used it to bed the blocks and fill the edges of the joints. The profile I have is just from photographs as I don't have another Mk.III to compare it with.

Photos after - before

[Claven2]

Just a thought, but wouldn't it be easy to locate a sporterized Ross stock that's nicer than yours to restore? All those patches won;t look quite right no matter what you do IMHO.

[Oatmeal Savage]

Hey man don't rain on my parade!:-) Going into this I knew the stock was toast so I thought I would attempt to repair the stock. I have nothing to lose and I think it will look better when I finish. When I find a better stock I will replace this one.

[sdh1911]

Very nice gun, We don't see too much of that type thing in these parts. How well do they shoot?SDH

[Oatmeal Savage]

I haven't fired this beast yet:-) But they have the reputation of being tack drivers.


Very nice gun, We don't see too much of that type thing in these parts. How well do they shoot?SDH

[Oatmeal Savage]

Well the stock is coming along! As it ia now and as it was.

[Cantom]

Well the stock is coming along! As it ia now and as it was.


Nice job! That wood will look great when finished off, although it probably won't fool anyone. Much better than leaving it the way it was.

BTW, is your barrel 30" long?

[tiriaq]

Quite the difference! Have you managed to get the front sight base off yet, so the nosecap can be installed? There is a trick that I used on a different rifle that had a very tightly banded unit on the barrel. I took a couple of pieces of steel barstock about 2" long, drilled and threaded them for two machine screws to hold them together. The put them in the 4 jaw in the lathe, and drilled and bored a hole through them (1/2 hole in each) the size of the barrel immediately behind the sight unit. Clamped this collar on the barrel behind the sight base and then used a bearing puller to draw the sight base off the barrel. The collar gave something for the puller's jaws to engage. The muzzle must be protected, of course.

[Oatmeal Savage]

The barrel is 30.25". I was able to resolve the base problem. I know that it will never be as good as the proper stock. I discovered that the butt plate I have must be for an earlier Ross, the trap cover is in the middle. I hope to finish this week as soon as I can use my left hand again:-)

[tiriaq]

Mk. III buttplate has a brass trap, earlier have a sliding door.

[Claven2]

??? What happened to your left hand??? Or do I want to know?

[tiriaq]

I was afraid to ask.

[Oatmeal Savage]

Well, I was using a wood carving knife to trim one end of the replacement forestock. The knife was getting dull so I applied more muscle and it worked, but too well. I accidentally used my fingers as a stop. So when I have the full use of my hand again I will finish the stock. I won't do that again, I hope.

[sdh1911]

Is that sight OEM? I'm not familiar with that type of rifle and the sight looks pretty impressive. You can try cleaning up the wood with lanolin hand cleaner. It cuts the crude and leaves the original look. -SDH

[Cantom]

Well, I was using a wood carving knife to trim one end of the replacement forestock. The knife was getting dull so I applied more muscle and it worked, but too well. I accidentally used my fingers as a stop. So when I have the full use of my hand again I will finish the stock. I won't do that again, I hope.

My No 4 Mk 2 rifle with the C1 flash hider is also blooded...the gunsmith was carving the sporterized forend to allow a band to fit around it and ended up cutting himself so badly he cut an artery and ended up in emerg for like 8 hours. I felt pretty bad but he said it goes with the territory.

[James E. Leeper]

You can bet theRoss will shoot if the bore is half-way decent. I scored two witnessed consecutive rams off the bench using a Ross rechambered to .303 Epps Imp.

[LiffordVolunteer]

This MK III Ross looks like a good candidate for a refit. I WOULD have it checked by a gunsmith for TWO KEY reasons: Bolt is assembled correctly; chamber isnt grossly oversize and properly headspaced.

Some MK III;s had their chambers reamed out larger than necessary to cope with the variations in .303 ammunition between British and Canadian Govt sources.

I had one of these Ross MK IIIs from 1964 until 1992 when I traded of so someone else could have as much use and fun as I had had with it.

I acquired my MKIII Ross in 1964 at an Ontario Arms Collectors Show on North Yonge at that vegetable market where it was held on Sundays. It was $10.00 as the last six inches of the barrel were rusted out and the stock was cut down. Bolt/Action had beautiful case hardening once cleaned up. Used original stock and put a forend on the cut off stock. I had Holman and Hickey check it out as I have recommended above before I shot it.

I even fired at a respectable distance my own "proof rounds" of commercial .303 ammunition by using a lanyard with the rifle tied down securely to a spare tire rest to fire it into a gravel bank 10 yards from the muzzle as the WW I Veterans I knew in the 1950s had told me of their experiences with improperly assembled bolts which their fellow WWI Veterans did not survive.

One of them, my second cousin who was a Sergeant in the "Fighting 93rd" C.E.F. Overseas Battalion was one who saw others throw their Ross rifles away and pick up a MK III Lee Enfield so that they could survive WW I.

What makes the MK III Ross accurate is also its downfall. All those locking recesses in the action as well as the bolt make mud accumulation a BIG problem. Then the design fault that has an improperly sized bolt stop that gets peened out to the point that it stops bolt travel combines so that Canadians in WW I ended up kicking open the MK III Ross actions so that they could return fire at Ypres in 1915.

My MK III Ross came with a rivet in the bolt so that it could NOT be disassembled and result in improper reassembly where the bolt DOES fly back upon firing.

Also remember here that your MKIII Ross is the "best of 1910 technology" and that both the action and its metallurgy are almost 100years old.

Age can make even metal brittle in my opinion.

Essentially thats why I would recommend cast bullet loads for the Ross MK III in the condition shown here. IF it was in NRA Excellent condition I would have confidence in its integrity but it does look that the one shown here has "been tested".

In my case the MK III Ross rifle I bought for $10 in 1964 had a pitted bore which 1000s of cast bullets and Hoppes over almost three decades smoothed out somewhat.

The "best part" was that in the late 1970s I had some moose hunting success with the MKIII Ross using 220 grain Norma bullets and moderate 3031 loads. As a hunting rifle the two shots "in the moose boiler room" could be delivered Very Quickly.

In WW II the troops going overseas trained with MK III Ross rifles as that was all they had in 1941-42 with MK IIIs sent overseas and before there were enough No 4s from Long Branch "Rosie the Barrel Makers" to go around.

The MK III has a very heavy barrel as military rifles go; the MK III Ross straight pull action won the 1952 Olympics for the Russians in 7.62 X 54.

By conservative estimate I fired about 6000 or more rounds through my MK III Ross; these thousands of rounds were chiefly Lyman mould or commercially cast bullets; water pump grease. a Lyman 310 tong tool shoot as is unsized with recommended load no of grains of Unique ALWAYS with a wad on top of the powder charge so that it would not bleed up the case and be a hazard.

The rear sight has a dandy windage adjustment for cast bullets. I shot routinely 2" or less five shot groups off a rest with it at 100 yards. I spent many winter afternoons in the 1970s firing off 50 or a 100 rounds at a time in plinking sessions on my own property.

Virtually no recoil with cast loads eh! The 220 grain Norma bullets with 3031 powder had manageable recoil. The battle sight on the fold down sight was perfect for 100 yard zero from my own handloads.

With the rifle here I would suggest that once restored it would be a fitting addition to a WW I re-enactors kit. It was a Passendale failure but a superb sniping rifle with its Warner Swasey scope in WW I. It was widely issued for sniping use. My "guess" is that some MK III Ross rifles saw WW II action as well.

[skully]

Nice job you did on the Ross !

[Cantom]

I haven't fired this beast yet:-) But they have the reputation of being tack drivers.

Hey Oatmeal Savage! Did your fingers recover and how's the rifle restoration going? Is it done?

[Dante]

OUCH! What fool did that to the stock? It doesn't even look like the original wood. Too nice a rifle to leave that way. Good luck with the restoration. Dave

[Rossguy]

Sir:- Let's try to sort the wheat from the chaff here.....1. The Home Guards were Commercial; not Military,so weren't reamed out for out-of-spec ammo.2.The rear sight is original with the small aperature- they all started out that way, but most were bored out by Military.3.Early MkIII's used the same buttplate as the 1912 Cadet.4.All the HG's I've owned or seen used the early stamped nosecap, as the MkIII Mils up to late 1915.5.The bolt "urban myth"-only if bubba got near it before you do you need to be concerned- all you need to do is look at the bolt-head when it's retracted-if the gas vent is up, it's correct.6. A few years ago, I loaned original stocks for 1912 Cadet, MkII***, MkIII(late) and M-10 Commercial to a stock guy in Dushore, PA to make patterns. If he's still in business, likely a replacement walnut stock for a Home Guard would make sense, unlike a Military- only the HG stamps went into the stock.

[Surpmil]

I guess this is the wrong time to say it, but looking at your original photos, I wondered whether this rifle might have been modified in France in WWI. The HG mark would seem to argue against that, but a lot of men served in formations in Canada before going overseas, there were numerous 'shipments' of men and I couldn't help wondering if that was not someone's trench-built sniping rifle. The black paint is really odd to my mind. Since the finish was so good, why paint it? To protect the finish? If the owner wanted to protect the finish, why would they chop up the wood in that crude way? On the other hand, if he wanted to conceal the shine of the metal, black paint would be the way to go. Did it looked brushed or sprayed? Looked like it had been on there a long time. The rough work on thinning the wrist looks like the kind of thing that was done in France.

Probably that's all wrong, but you see where I'm coming from?

[louthepou]

Wow, did I have some catching up to do on this post. Thanks for sending it to the restorer's section - and Oatmeal, two things:
1. Congrats on a job coming along very well,
2. Hope the hand is also getting better!

Lou

[Echo Bravo]

How did you end up getting the front sight base off?

I tried mine tonight... got the 4 screws that hold the sight hood on... then took off the sight blade and screw... then tapped the pin out of the base...

Now it's stuck... I tried tapping (hammering) the front sight base off using a block of wood as a punch... but that thing is not budging... any thoughts?

EB

[Jim Tarleton]

Nice find. Good luck with it. I hope to own one myself someday.

Jim

[Surpmil]

How did you end up getting the front sight base off?

I tried mine tonight... got the 4 screws that hold the sight hood on... then took off the sight blade and screw... then tapped the pin out of the base...

Now it's stuck... I tried tapping (hammering) the front sight base off using a block of wood as a punch... but that thing is not budging... any thoughts?

EB

Tap it back to the original position and apply a little heat to the block while standing the muzzle in 1/2" of ice water to 'shrink' it a little. (Four hands would help)

Remove from heat and water at the same time and try again with the mallet.

[Cantom]

How did you end up getting the front sight base off?

I tried mine tonight... got the 4 screws that hold the sight hood on... then took off the sight blade and screw... then tapped the pin out of the base...

Now it's stuck... I tried tapping (hammering) the front sight base off using a block of wood as a punch... but that thing is not budging... any thoughts?

EB

My new to me Ross Mk III rifle had a severely canted front sight base, a good 10 to 20 degrees off, very obvious as seen. I tried putting the muzzle on a block of wood and tapping it straight with brass drifts etc but it wouldn't work, there is a taper and a very strong interference fit, it wouldn't budge no matter how hard I drifted it.
Member Tiriaq offered to put together a kit for safely pulling the front sight base off and driving it back on. I received it yesterday and it worked like Jack the Bear...the sight is now straight, the slot lines up for the retaining pin and it looks a lot better. The dimensions of the kit are perfect- it included a brass button to go in the end of the barrel to protect the crown.

Thanks Tiriaq!

Anyone else need to do this?

BTW, this rifle is built like the proverbial brick schidthaus. :lol:


Before:

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2008/02/RossFrontSightReset002-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2008/02/RossFrontSightReset003-1.jpg

Pulling:

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2008/02/RossFrontSightReset004-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2008/02/RossFrontSightReset007-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2008/02/RossFrontSightReset006-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2008/02/RossFrontSightReset009-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2008/02/RossFrontSightReset010-1.jpg


Finished:

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2008/02/RossFrontSightReset011-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2008/02/RossFrontSightReset012-1.jpg
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2008/02/RossFrontSightReset014-1.jpg

[louthepou]

Pretty clever engineering there Tiriaq, nice!

Lou

[NORTH-SHORE (CANADA)]

Hi,
Nice work i do have some spare part if you need someting let me know:thup:
Here a pic of my ross
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/08/1003581iw8-1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/08/w700-1.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img98/1003581iw8.jpg/1/)
here the marking on the wood
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/08/1004180-1.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/i/1004180.jpg/)
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/08/1004181-1.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/i/1004181.jpg/)
marking of the gun
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/08/1004174-1.jpg (http://img89.imageshack.us/i/1004174.jpg/)
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/08/1004182-1.jpg (http://img207.imageshack.us/i/1004182.jpg/)
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/08/1004175-1.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/1004175.jpg/)
marking on the bayo
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/08/1004170-1.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/i/1004170.jpg/)
http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/08/1004167-1.jpg (http://img513.imageshack.us/i/1004167.jpg/)