To carry on where we left off...Smokeless in a Mauser M1871 or 71/84

[Patrick Chadwick]

... produces poor accuracy.


Reason: the fast pressure onset with smokeless bends the action body to one side like a banana, because of the single locking lug, and the "whip" is transferred up the barrel in addition to the longitudinal shock wave that is always generated in every system. When this whip reaches the muzzle, the resulting deviation produces lousy grouping.

Best performance in that long barrel with the single locking lug will be obtained with the slowest rifle black powder you can get - I use Swiss No. 4 i.e 1 1/2 Fg.

This opinion is not just my own experience, but the common conclusion of the BDMP competition shooters who use these rifles. As this is the 3rd time this year that the question came up on the old Jouster boards, I humbly submit it could be included as an FAQ.

Patrick

[slamfire1]

Words I did not want to read. I have a lot of AA5744, which shoots very well in my Martini Henry in 45/70.

I have been trying to stay away from Black Powder cartridge reloading due to the amount of work I read that is required to make black powder shoot.

At least I have brass, a mold, and a sizing die for my M1871/84.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Sorry if you're disappointed, but I can't alter my judgement to suit what you happen to have in the powder safe. Please note, I did not say you cannot shoot an M71/84 with smokeless powder, just that you will get the best results with coarse-grained BP, as said above. Furthermore, in this country (I do not know where you are), if anything goes wrong you are culpable - for using nitro in a rifle that was not proofed for it. Especially since, in order to get a powder license, you must have attended an approved course of training, so you cannpt plead ignorance. AND all the competitions for this kind of rifle specify black powder anyway (no substitutes!), so what's the point of working up a match-winning smokeless load if you will not be allowed to compete?

The M-H may well do better than the M71 for accuracy with faster powders, as the cross-pin that takes the load is not as severely asymmetrical as the single-lug M71 action. In fact, the extensive trials conducted before the M-H was introduced showed that it was a very rugged rifle. If you have managed to defeat the major problem with the M-H - how to achieve stable combustion characteristics with a charge that just rattles around in in that huge case - then the Mauser case woild be less of a problem in that respect. But still a big problem.

I am not sure that I understand the comment "amount of work I read that is required to make black powder shoot". When I don't feel like reloading, I take my 22 and off-the shelf ammo, but if I shoot my BPCR, I want to get it right.

BPCRs are straightforward. Establish the seating depth required for the bullet you are going to use. Allow for a grease cookie underneath the bullet, with a thickness of anything from 1/10 to 5/16", (you will have to experiment a bit, regardless of which type of powder you use) and a card wad between the grease and the powder. Load powder to the level given by seating depth, grease and card. Fit card wad over powder, add grease. Insert bullet. You can also have a card between grease and bullet (I do). Opinions vary as to how helpful this is. It can be quite thin, as it is only a separator to stop the grease sticking to the back of the bullet.

The load, as a value in grains, is not critical. What does matter is that the the cartridge is full - no air space, but also no heavy compression of the black powder, as this alters it's burn rate, and so varying compression leads to bad ballistic consistency.

But once you have done the experimenting and got a volume measure for the correct charge of BP, it's straightforward. And the rifle makes such a satisfying "boom" instead of that nervous nitro "crack". Yes, it's work, but not black magic, just black fingers!

Patrick

[jon_norstog]

Patrick is right, guys. The only thin I would add is to use a soft lead bullet. 16-to-1 lead-tin is OK, a lot of shooters like 20-1. most commercial cast bullets are "hard" in the 10-1 range and don't usually shoot well with BP.

I've got an 11mm rolling block that shoots great with BP and won't do %$#@ with smokeless. Same for my 45-70.

And man, it smells like Satan's farts.

jn

[Carl R]

So far I've only used Nitro powder in my 71/84s along with dacron filler to take up the void. I would have to agree with Patrick on accuracy. At 50 yards I get about a 3" group which isn't spectacular. I don't notice any crack though because the velocity is pretty low. It's amusing to see the black filaments of dacron floating in the air after taking a shot. :rofl: I've never worked with black powder mostly because of the horror stories of cleaning bores after using it. I guess I'm just lazy. Given that it's considered an explosive, I don't want to store it in our home, either.

In the USA we aren't saddled with mandatory training classes for shooting or reloading. I hope it stays that way even though it may be riskier. We have more than enough government the way it is.

Here's a link to some detailed photos of the better of my two 71/84s: PictureTrail Gallery (http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/5060409)

Carl

[jon_norstog]

Hey, Carl,

That is a good-looking rifle. you could shoot BP just fine if you take a thermos full of hot soapy water with you to the range.

Really, that's what those old rifles were meant to use, so why not? Also, it's kind of cool to imagine yourself in the barracks with the old soldiers telling you stories about the '71 war and how they rolled up the French like cheap shag carpet. And the young soldiers are talking tough, how they'd like o fight the Brits .. maybe even the Americans. You're in the barracks, you can smell the leathter greaSE. I get carried away ..

good luck!

jn

[Carl R]

jon, I'll have to consider it. Carl

[Patrick Chadwick]

Carl, you do not have to "take a thermos full of hot soapy water with you to the range". It may be a good idea, but it's often just not practical.

It is not the black powder combustion salts themselves that are directly corrosive, so much as the fact that they are extremely hygroscopic. And when the water gets into the salts, boy, then that is corrosive!

Someone is going to shoot me down for saying this (so what - as an old German saying goes: once you've lost your reputation, you can live as you please) but if you are away for some days and cannot clean it out properly, then a quick fix is to remove the nipple after shooting, while the gun is still hot (they can be vary hard to remove when the gun has cooled down) and then spray a good penetrating oil into the bore and the nipple socket.

That will save your rifle until you can get somewhere to clean it without becoming unpopular. But you must clean it properly before shooting again, as oil-soaked BP residues will clog up the touch-hole/nipple socket quite effectively!

Patrick

[Carl R]

Patrick,

With the 71/84 it would be the bore and not the touch hole and nipple which I assume are muzzle loader features. I know nothing about muzzle loaders! Kroil, "the oil that creeps", is an excellent penetrating oil which I have been using as a bore cleaner. When shooting corrosively primed centerfire ammunition, I swab the bore with Windex window cleaner several times and then use Kroil. I have had no rust in the bores.

Thanks for your comments and help. I just have to get my act together, buy some BP, find load data, and give it whirl.

I have a very nice Martini Henry from the Nepalese horde that I have to get up and running, too. That will be a lot tougher because I'll probably have to cast bullets for it which will be an entirely new experience. I dread to think of what the brass will cost. The 71/84 Mauser brass and bullets were quite reasonable.

Carl

[Patrick Chadwick]

Sorry if I confused you, Carl, I was providing a "broadband" answer for BP rifles in general. Your Windex/Kroil routine sounds OK.

Good luck with the M-H ! They had a reputation for being real shoulder-punchers. Yes, the price of the brass will make you cry - try to think of it as a lifetime investment.

If you are stuck for properly fitting bullets, another quick fix is to buy/cast long bullets for a 451 muzzle-loader (Lee, Lyman and RCBS make moulds) and paper-wrap them. The original bullets were indeed paper-wrapped, so you are being unhistorical if you do this.

If you haven't already done so, I suggest you get onto the Martini-Henry forum, just a couple of clicks away.

Patrick

[Patrick Chadwick]

Sorry Carl, bad typo, fingers got ahead of the brain again.

I should have written "you are NOT being unhistorical if you do this".

[geberl]

Well, I don't shoot matches with my 71/84's but I've run a few thousand rounds through them and all I've ever used is 5744. I bought two thousand bullets from a guy in Canada before he was put out of business, good bullets. I shot those up then started casting my own, only observation I can speak of is with the bore diameter. My best shooting rifle has the bore marked 10.95, I can get it to group about 8" at 200 yards off a bench. I think it shoots good enough for myself, it definately will outshoot my trapdoors. Maybe I'm just not expecting much but it works for me.

[Patrick Chadwick]

8" at 200 yards is good for a military BPCR. In fact, I would say you could certainly participate in a match and get a respectable score. The problem would most likely be that most matches only permit black powder, and for military rifles you are usually not permitted to clean between shots. That means you have to get experimenting to find how much of what lubricant your rifle needs to get through a match without cleaning! Why not give it a try?

Patrick

[geberl]

Well the only matches in my area I could compete in are service rifle and you can't use a bullet diameter this large. I have been trying to get the club to run a few antique matches but haven't had much interest. On a typical session with a 71/84 I'll shoot anywhere from 40 to 60 cartridges, not sure how you run your matches in Europe but the ones I compete in the States are 50 shots. That is service rifle and you can't clean during any of those either. Of the 71/84's I own the bore diameters vary 11.05 to 10.95 and the larger the bore the less accuracy I've obtained with .446 bullets. My 1888 with a 11.05 bore probably wouldn't hold 18" at 200 yards and the bore is just as nice as the one with a 10.95. The couple 11 marked rifles I have shoot better but not near what 10.95 rifle is capable of doing. I played with alot of 9x57 rifles, really enjoy that calibre, and I've found alot of variation in those bores as well. I ended up having three different diameter bullets manufactured to get them shooting well, I'm assuming the same might be true of the 43 mausers. With the variations in the bores some might need a slightly larger bullet to shoot well, honestly don't know just speculating. I've seen it in the 9x57 so I'm assuming the same would apply in this instance, .001"-.003" in bore diameter would really effect accuracy.

[Patrick Chadwick]

xOf the 71/84's I own the bore diameters vary 11.05 to 10.95 and the larger the bore the less accuracy I've obtained with .446 bullets. My 1888 with a 11.05 bore probably wouldn't hold 18" at 200 yards and the bore is just as nice as the one with a 10.95. The couple 11 marked rifles I have shoot better but not near what 10.95 rifle is capable of doing. I played with alot of 9x57 rifles, really enjoy that calibre, and I've found alot of variation in those bores as well. I ended up having three different diameter bullets manufactured to get them shooting well, I'm assuming the same might be true of the 43 mausers. .

You have achieved a very important insight - accuracy in a BP rifle is just as dependent on a good bullet/bore match as for more modern rifles. Unfortunatey this means that you either have to able to spent a lot on bullets, or get into casting your own. I think I suggested before that paper patching a lead bullet up to size is a simple way of finding out what bullet matches best. By matches I mean the size that produces the best ballistic results.
The CIP (yes, it's covered by CIP) values for the 11.15x60R chambering are: bore diameter 10.95 mm, groove diameter 11.50 mm. Let's assume that the bore/land ratio is 1:1, then the bullet that can neatly be distorted to fill that cross-section is one with a diameter (10.95 + 11.50)x1/2 = 11.225mm or 0.442". Doesn't quite work so simply, as the bullet is not a fluid, and experience shows that about 0.446" is a good first start. But that is for a new bore. If your bore is oversize (no great surprise after 130 years) - you quote 11.05mm - then I would try with a 0.448 bullet with a 5% tin/lead mix.

"So where do I get that?" I hear you ask.

The answer is, from someone who makes custom molds for muzzle loading rifles. Here in Germany, for instance, there are several who, if you give them bore dimensions of your rifle (bore size, land size, bore/land ratio) or, maybe easier, send them a slug that has been driven through your barrel, AND say what lead/tin mix you are using for the bullet alloy, and what bullet weight you need, will make you a mold that drops bullets of the right size that can be used without calibration. So look for such a craftsman in your country. They will exist, but you will have to find them yourself. Ask some muzzleloaders, get a muzzle-loading magazine, or search the net. Don't forget, once the powder has gone bang, then the interior ballistics of a BPCR is much closer to a muzzle-loader than to a modern nitro-powered rifle firing a jacketed bullet.

Aternatively, get a standard mold for a 450 or 451 muzzle-loader from RCBS, Lymen, Lee, etc and an appropriate sizing die. The drawback here is that you would have a hard time sizing down that much, and the grease grooves shrink in the process. The closer you can cast to the final size, the better. In the end, a custom mold that saves sizing makes better sense than buying a standard mold + sizer + extra work.

Good luck with your further researches!

Patrick

[geberl]

I collected mauser commercial arms primarily had a few dozen military examples and one day decided I needed some earlier rifles so I bought M71, M71/84, ect.......but never became too involved with them. On the commerical side of German mauser production it seems a land diameter was never the same. Might have an 8x51, 8x57, or six 8x64's and none of them were the same, the only ones close were the 7x57's. Most of the 7x57's I've owned were close on bore diameters, but all 8mm's and the 9x57's were the worst examples for uniformity. The larger bores I didn't buy in quantity so my samplings were smaller and I didn't notice it much but all the smaller calibers exhibited variation to some extent. I had assumed the 71/84's were the same and noted long ago the markings and had surmised this was the case but never delved too deeply into the 11.15x60r calibre although I enjoy using it. I actually have a long ago converted 71/84 guild sporter that I've used hunting boar. In the states most Americans are used to the uniformity of American Arms and don't realized the inaccuracy of their rifle is due to European manufacturing of the day. I've made some good buys on rifles that "wouldn't shoot well" because the wrong bullet was being used. I've sold most of my collection six or so years ago and just kept some of the ones I enjoyed shooting most. Another calibre I think that is neglected alot in the States but is a very accurate and fun cartrige to shoot is the 8.15x46r. I have two mausers in this calibre that I take out as more often then some rifles but again I've seen quite a bit of land variation in these. I ended up having some custom equipment made for this calibre and feel it was money well spent.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Olson gives the groove depth for the M71 as 0.012", but for the M71/84 he gives 0.006", i.e. half as much. The CIP values I quoted give a groove depth of (11.50 - 10.95)x1/2 = 0.275mm = 0.011" which corresponds to the Olson values for the M71, where you might expect to match the later M71/84, if it was indeed different. So I am not quite sure if Olson was right about the 0.006" for the M71/84. It would be helpful if you could slug all your 71s and 71/84s and give me the results.

The only sure answer is the recommendation made over and over again in the Lyman manuals "Slug your bore and size accordingly".

Those deep grooves have an advantage: if the bore is worn or scratched, there is enough "meat" on the rifling to hone the bore and improve the surface. But they also mean that a medium-to-soft lead (8-12 Brinell) is advisable to get a good obturation of the bullet. A soft bullet will slug up to fit, but a hard bullet may either allow gas blow-by, or create an unecessariy high pressure, depending on its size. Basically, a harder bullet is more critical.

Patrick

[dogtag]

I've never been able to fathom why people buy BP rifles and then shoot them with smokeless.
Half the fun is the smoke and boom, plus the casting and loading.
I clean my 71 right there at the range. One brush, 6 wet patches and a couple of GI bore cleaner patches - presto, it's done.

[Alfred]

I've read that the 40 Caliber BP bottle neck cartridge, 40-80 I think it was, scored better at one thousand yards than modern smokeless powder cartridges up until the 7mm Magnums came along.

The article I read on this said that the Heavy loaded BP cartridges from 45-70 on up had far less deviation in velocity than smokeless powder cartridges, at least in the propellants available up until that article was written, about 1980 or so, maybe earlier.

The .40 bottlenecks were apparently the most efficient as long range target rounds.

I've only loaded BP in .32 S&W shorts so far, for a I J safety hammerless, but have used BP C&B revolvers for near fifty years. The C&B revolver gives up nothing to cartridge guns of the same power class so far as accuracy goes, if you do your part in loading consistently.



PS
How well would a paper patched bullet work in these rifles?

[gunner]

Hi Patrick,

You wrote that you use the SP No.4 for your 1871/84 loads, we want to try it also with BP. Is it possible that you can give me the bullet weight and a powder range where we can try it out? I read your thread " To carry on where we left" , but if i am not blind are there no load datas. I would be happy if you want to help me again. Excuse me for beeing wiry.

Regards

Gunner

[Patrick Chadwick]

This load was developed for shooting at 300 meters and above:

470 gn GG bullet with 3% tin in pure lead (NO wheelweights).
Sized to 0.446" (slug your bore and size accordingly).
Bullet inserted in case so that case mouth is on front grease groove.
In my M71, this is about 1 mm off the lands. Going closer makes problems in military competitions where you are not allowed to clean between shots!

This is the first step, as you need to establish the seating depth BEFORE deciding on the powder charge.

In case: powder, shake down powder by tapping the case on the bench, two wads from milk carton, 0.5 cc of lube from a medical syringe, wad, bullet.

The amount of lube will vary according to mix and whether you want to shoot military competitions without cleaning between shots.

Powder: Swiss No. 4 to fill space under bullet/wad/lube/wads stack. Empirically: 67 gns. No compression, as that would be yet another variable, and reports say that Swiss powder doesn't like it!

It too me quite some time to establish this load, so if you work up a satisfactory load with BP for the 350 gn bullet I would be grateful if you would post it here, to save me some work! My estimate is that, with the shorter bullet, about 75 gn will fill the space without compression. That combination should produce a significantly higher muzzle velocity, and may well perform better at 100 meters, than my load, which is intended for long-range shooting.


Patrick

[gunner]

Thank you Patrick for your efforts. We`ll try it out with the lead bullet and the 350grs H&N bullet. And i post the results as soon as i have it. As i know you get a BP crust in the chamber near the rifling when you fire longer series. Is there no problem with that in military matches ? I`ll post also the results of the pressure test from the nitro powder from the "Beschussamt München" wich has the only barrel to test it, but unluckily is the man who makes the tests out for vacation.

Best Regards

Ulrich

BTW. If you ever being in the south than, let me know and we can meet for a nice talk and go shooting if you want to.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Gunner wrote:
"As i know you get a BP crust in the chamber near the rifling when you fire longer series. Is there no problem with that in military matches ?"

Yes there is. That is the reason why I backed off the bullet 1mm from the lands and increased the lube quantity to 0.5cc.

Patrick

[gunner]

Ahh, ok! Thank you.

Regards

Ulrich

[Patrick Chadwick]

Gunner, if you sized down H&N cal45 bullets (diameter 454?) to 446 or thereabouts, how did you do it without stripping the coating off the bullets?

Patrick

[gunner]

Patrick, at first i must admit, that i wrote you the wrong bullet weight not 350grs. Sorry for that. We use 300grs. KSHS with .451 dia in .45 cal downsized to .446 with a H&E sizeing die in the Lup a matic RCBS press. Lubricate it with Redding case wax from Henke (# RD21022). You loose a bit of the coating appr. 3-5% on some bullets, because they aren`t exactly straight. After sizing you can easily rub the wax down with a towel . The OAL is 74mm. The loads in SP4 are not ready if they will be ready we send them and also the TB loads to the Munich Proofhouse. Did you ever used Pyrotex ? Have you some experiences with this stuff?

Regards

Gunner

[Patrick Chadwick]

OK, that sounds a bit more plausible with a .451 bullet. 300gns is actually lighter than the original bullet (which was 386 gns) so you ough to be able to get 75-80 gns of Swiss 4 in the case, if you shake it down well. As to Pyrodex. I have never used it, so I cannot offer any comment.

Let us all know how it turns out at the range!

Patrick

[jmoore]

I have never cared for Pyrodex, it'll corrode a bore as well as black powder (if you don't clean it correctly) and doesn't smell right. The only advantage is that more places sell it, due to relaxed shipping and storage regulations vis. "black". If you can get it, stick to the "real stuff"!

[Johnny Peppers]

It is not the black powder combustion salts themselves that are directly corrosive, so much as the fact that they are extremely hygroscopic. And when the water gets into the salts, boy, then that is corrosive!
Patrick

When the U.S. Military went to smokeless powder loads they originally thought that the combustion of the smokeless powder was forming an acid which quickly corroded the bores if not thoroughly cleaned. They finally figured out that the potassium chlorate in the primer compound formed potassium chloride when fired, which is nearly identical to table sale. With the humidity below 50% no corrosion took place, but as the humidity went up the corrosive became more aggressive. It was found that the potassium chloride had to be dissolved to clean it, and plain old water worked best to dissolve the salts. Windex works good because it has water in it.
We use to shoot the Mauser 71/84 when they were $10 and the ammo was $10 per hundred. The ammo was absolutely sure fire, and the original BP load with the paper patch bullet was extremely accurate. Like so many others, we never found a suitable smokeless load.
http://i36.tinypic.com/bdtt15.jpg

[Patrick Chadwick]

Well, people have being attempting to use smokeless powder in the '71s for a century!
The German colonial troops in East Africa tried nitrocellulose loads in 1909, using "Reichscolonialpulver". The trial was judged to be a failure.

Patrick

[gunner]

Here`s a pic with the TrailBoss. The Munich Proofhouse has tested the load and the result is ,that the load is absolutely o.K. :thup:The gaspressure is only 40bar over the BP-load and the speed difference is 2m/s in a 5 shot average.

Regards

Gunner

[Patrick Chadwick]

Very, very impressive.

Patrick

[jmoore]

40 bar is about 590 psi, yes? That's not much at all!

[gunner]

jmoore,

you`re right! We thaught that there will be more. The max. pressure of the TB is only 0.2 milliseconds faster reached than the BP. So there will be no safety problem at all.

Best regards

Gunner

Patrick,

where can we shoot BP competitions in Germany? The BDMP in Bavaria has no LM`s in LRSPG1 and SPPDG1. Where do you shoot ?

Best Regards

Gunner

[Patrick Chadwick]

The BDMP LRSPG1 and SPPDG1 competitions take place at Alsfeld, for 100 and 300 meters. 600/900/1000 yards are shot at Bisley, once a year. As we regularly see a team from Luxembourg at Alsfeld, I think a keen shot could also make the journey from Munich!

Patrick

[gunner]

Patrick,

Thank you for the answer. Can you please tell me some shooting dates?
If you are interested and if you have the time, than come and visit us to have a fine shooting and a nice time and good talking about milsurps.


Regards

Gunner