Ammo shortage is worldwide?

[Louis of PA]

from strategypage.com

The Great Global Ammo Shortage

March 6, 2009: While the United States is a major supplier of weapons to Israel (nearly half a billion dollars worth a year), there are many other nations that also supply weapons and ammunition to Israel.

Most of these other nations supply small quantities, worth less than $10 million a year. During the last five years, a major supplier, among these minor players, was Serbia, which shipped up to $8.6 million worth of ammunition, mostly 5.56mm, one year. This was needed to rebuild Israeli stocks. That's because five years ago, after the U.S. invaded Iraqhttp://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/03/magglass_10x10-1.gif (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htproc/articles/20090306.aspx#), American troops suddenly needed much larger quantities of small arms ammo.

Early on, the U.S. Army had a lot of trouble getting enough 5.56mm ammunition for combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistanhttp://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/03/magglass_10x10-1.gif (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htproc/articles/20090306.aspx#), as well as increased training with weapons for troops headed there. More ominous was the need to maintain a "war reserve" of billions of bullets for wars that have not broken out.

The one 5.56mm ammo plant the government used (the largest one in the world, in Lake City, Missouri) could produce a maximum of 1.2 billion rounds of 5.6mm ammo a year, and was already operating 24/7.

But the army wanted to have the ability to get 3.2 billion rounds a year for surge situations (like a war.) To get the extra ammo, the army bought from other American and foreign manufacturers. One of the major overseas suppliers was Israel Military Industries Ltd. (for 70 million rounds in 2004 alone). There are over a dozen major manufacturers of 5.56mm ammunition worldwide, and the army had no problem getting what they wanted in short order. But Israel shipped so much 5.56mm ammo that they had to turn to other suppliers to keep their own war reserves topped off.

During World War II, sixteen different companies supplied small arms ammunition for the United States, although in that war, there were eight times as many divisions to be supplied. But the U.S. demand for billions of rounds of 5.56mm ammo after 2003, caused major shifts in the usual patterns of who sold to who, at least for a few years.

[Iceman66]

The fact is that the U.S. could not do today what it did in 1942. We no longer have the capability. You can thank Dems for closing military arsenals and ammunition production facilities. We no longer design an build our own weapons either. Most are foreign designs purchased from foreign manufacturers.

[Dan In Indiana]

Somethings going on, I checked at least a half dozen major suppliers of bullets for reloading, mainly the Sierra Match King in .22 cal., the one I'm after being the 69 grain for my 1in9 DPMS I bought late last year. Working up a thousand once fire cases I got this week from the Brassman, will take a while so I'm guessing by the time they are done, maybe they will have some in stock, maybe. Checked on primers in town today, High thirties for small rifle primers, not many in stock. Plates and insurance due soon, may be a while before this little project gets done.

OFC

[7.62 NATO]

FWIW, The Wal-Mart I visited yesterday (Pensacola) happened to not only have what I wanted (9mm & 45) under the counter. But also several crates of various rifle/pistol calibers requiring unpacking.

[Louis of PA]

5 Year Copper Trend

If ammo makers had been stocking up on copper through 2008, on the usually wise assumption that copper would continue to escalate in price, then they got screwed when the price plummeted in 2009 due to the recession.

The same thing also happened to some airlines that purchased futures for jet fuel, to protect themselves from the crazy escalation. Now they are competing against one or two airlines that did not.

It's called Risk. That's what business people have to engage in.

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/03/spotcopper5y-1.gif (http://www.kitcometals.com/connecting.html)

[RED]

The "shortage" cannot be blamed on the military nor on the price of metals. It is, in my opinion, a self inflicted wound. This injury was caused not by the hobbyist, not the match shooters, not the cowboy shooters, and certainly not by those of us who over the years have accumulated a sufficient supply of ammunition to meet any foreseeable need. I know guys that have tens of thousands of rounds they have purchased just since the November elections. These guys are speculators and or panic buyers and are a problem.

They inhibit the new folks that come along and want to get into a gun hobby (young people especially). They also are hurting the old crowd that would like to try a new caliber or new type firearm but cannot find sufficient supplies of the right ammunition because some idiot has 150,000 rounds sitting in his basement. Ammunition he knows he will never use but might be able to turn it into a profit if the U.S. collapses. Meantime he sits there and secretly hopes his fantasy will come true. JMHO

:madsmile: :banghead:

[Art]

RED is right on the commercial end, but the demands of the military, combined with a lack of domestic production is a contributing factor for some calibers. IMI the Israeli arms company has taken up part of the slack for many years. The United States, for reasons mentioned above does not have and will not have in the future the capability to produce the volumn of anything, not just ammunition, it did in World War 2.

[Dan Wilson]

Well Red, stockpiling by individuals is NOT the problem.
One of the wonderful things that Bill Klintoon did was shut down all but ONE ammunition plant and even worse, he sold off ALL of the machinery to make the ammo except for the LC plant.

I have a military Power Point presentation somewhere on my computer that details it all and the ammo shortages and why in my computer, if I can find it I will post it in picture format.

Dan

[Rick Gushman]

Dan, Are those "peace dividends" wonderful? Apparently, no everyone believes that peace is temporary and that conflict is unfortunately the natural state of affairs. Rick

[Dan Wilson]

Well Rick, I guess that's what happens when you let urban children idiots run the show that don't know the first thing about human behaviorism's

Dan

http://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/2009/03/anim_soapbox-1.gif

[Steve M]

Actually it's the Taliban!....... They send one guy in on a ridge 1200 yards away from a Marine base camp. He squeezes off a couple of shots and splits. Then the whole camp opens up for 45 minutes Blastin everything that doesnt move! Go to youtube check it out.

[Former Cav]

I have the Time/Life series of books on the "Vietnam Police action" that my mother in law bought for me.
In it, it states that back in 1969 already, the US Army needed more turrets for M60 tanks and they had to OUTSOURCE this work to "West Germany" (some of you young guys might not know but there was an East and West Germany) way back then already as we no longer had the "industrial capacity" to produce these items.
We have been becoming a 3rd world country for quite a long time with our "free trade agreements" and etc.
Bob

[dryheat]

Dan Wilsons right. After the wall came down the US gov. decided there wouldn't be a need for all those cartridge manufacturers. Some dozen or so went oout of business. Only L.C. survived and I read a military publication that was concerned that they were still using equipment from the forties. Some of the ammo used by our troops now comes from European countries. Which brings me to my favorite rant; the fact that we don't make anything here except "money", funny money at that.

[Bob Womack]

You fellows do know about the U.S. armed services jet engine overhaul program, right? Under Mr. Clinton, it was decided to eliminate the major-service shops for each of the armed services and out-source the overhauls of all military jet engines. As of my last inquiry, all that was left were depots where engines were assessed, tagged, and shipped to the outside source for overhauls... in Canada.

Bob

[John Sukey]

Just a comment on the Peace dividend.

Has anyone noticed that "peace" is an unnatural condition? Look at world history. There has ALWAYS been a war going on somewhere in the world.

[Mk VII]

We can't have ammunition plants standing idle, year after year, fully staffed and ready to go but doing nothing. The whole point of offshore contracts - frequently let during the Cold War - was insurance against a sudden need for additional sources one day in the future.

[Louis of PA]

We can't have ammunition plants standing idle, year after year, fully staffed and ready to go but doing nothing. The whole point of offshore contracts - frequently let during the Cold War - was insurance against a sudden need for additional sources one day in the future.


When Boeing builds an airplane it outsources many components to countries around the world. Why? Because they hope those countries will continue to purchase their planes. Boeing, along with Hollywood, is one of the largest contributors to balance of trade dollars for the U.S.

Certain defence companies also outsource within the U.S. Why? Because congress people want a piece of the action for their district. Doesn't matter whether it's an efficient way to build a product or not.

We also outsource defense projects overseas for another reason: when we provide jobs to other countries, it makes them more dependent on us, more likely not to kick our troops out of their country.

As always, follow the money.

[DaveHH]

They tell him that it is unlikely that the new Dreamliner will ever fly. The concept was stupid and far too complex to pull off. Group hugs for the idiot that came up with this idea. We are not building an ME 109 here.

[Dan Wilson]

Well its one thing to put the facility's in mothballs against future need but its another thing entirely to sell all the facility's and equipment off to the country that kisses the klintoons butt the most.

I mean what kind of money would have been spent to keep the facility's and equipment idle in mothballs? NOTHING as it was all owned by the gubbermint to begin with.

But like everything else, the clintons were all about kickbacks, bribes and corruption. I dont see it getting any better with the hildabeast as the secretary of state accepting all those "convienent dontations" to the klintoon foundation.

Dan

[jim303]

You fellows do know about the U.S. armed services jet engine overhaul program, right? Under Mr. Clinton, it was decided to eliminate the major-service shops for each of the armed services and out-source the overhauls of all military jet engines. As of my last inquiry, all that was left were depots where engines were assessed, tagged, and shipped to the outside source for overhauls... in Canada.

Bob

At least they are a short drive north! It's something totally different when the producer/re-fitters are a possibly hostile ocean length away! Or even worse a country locked around several unfriendly ones! Free trade should of been just between us and the Canadians. At least we have similar values and lifestyles. Not to mention we buy a lot of their stuff, where do you think the Stryker vehicle comes from? It's a Canadian Army LAV3 without the 25mm turret and weapons sytem.

[CTMC(ret)]

I was at the Creighton Rd. Wal-Mart yesterday - lots of .40S&W and 9mm in the center of the sporting goods kiosk. "Some" .45, also - Blazer, I think.