Mauser Recoil

[ROCK]

I have many different military rifles. The only ones that I find unpleasant to fire are the various military mausers. During recoil, the stocks rap me right under the cheekbone and after 9 or 10 rounds, I'm done shooting due to pain. Those stocks position the eye well with the sights and would make a great stock for a .22LR but are not good for anything with substantial recoil.

I have tried holding these rifles many different ways without any luck. Springfields, Garands, Enfields and Mosins are pain free for me.

Do you any of you guys have similar experiences ?

[JimF in CT]

Yep . . . same here . . . .

ANY rifle, OFF A BENCH, will rap you more than if same rifle was used THE WAY IT WAS DESIGNED . . . that is, NOT off a bench!

The M'98 Mauser, w/ TURKISH ammo, beats me up real bad . . . from the bench! --Jim

[beachbumbob]

I agree with Jim about shooting off a bench. The most murdurous Mauser I've shot is a Spainish M43. Don't know why but it absolutely beats me up.

Bob

[Dave]

Everyone is built different. I am mystified tho, that anyone can shoot an '03 'pain free', unless it has the A1 stock. The S stock can be a real lip spilter, I've done it!

[Jim K]

The heavy ball service load was a 196gr bullet at 2500 fps; the 154gr light ball went out at 2900fps. You bet your sweet patootie they kick!

Jim

[dj*]

My 8mm. bruises my shoulder :surrender:, my 7mm. slaps my cheek :bitch:, but my 6.5 sweed is a peach to shoot.:thup:

[ROCK]

I have the same thing happen regardless of which Mauser I fire. My M96 Swedish is the least painful. My Chilean M95 is a little more painful. The various 8MM Mausers hit me the hardest. When I fire my Garand, Enfield, Mosin etc., I have no problem getting hit in the cheekbone, not even off a bench rest.

Mauser stocks somehow manage to hit me under the cheekbone in any shooting position and not just off the bench. The problem, I think is in the height and shape and the upward sloping angle of the comb. In a rifle with little or no recoil it is a great design. When I shoulder a Mauser rifle, my eye is aligned perfectly with the sights when my cheek is pressed against the stock tightly. If I try the same positioning with an Enfield or a Springfield, I am looking at the back of the cocking piece. I have to raise my head slightly to properly align the sights with those rifles.

I think I now know why the British Enfields have their distinctively low combs and the Russian Mosins have their rounded shape at the top front of the comb. They found that the high part at the top front of the comb would rap a shooter in the face with each shot and eventually cause a soldier to become uncomfortable with his rifle and thus be less effective.

[Patrick Chadwick]

... is from a Mauser T-rifle in 13mm. I have never managed to get my hooks on one of those, but I did talk to a gentleman who had. He described it as a unique experience - one shot and you'ld never want to do it again!

Otherwise, I agree 100 % with the previous posting. When I got a K98, I avoided the 8 mm and chose an FN-Israeli in .308 for that very reason. I know the battered cheekbone feeling all too well.

Patrick

[huffmanite]

I've no problem with most Mausers, but my 1891 Argentine 7.65 is a pain to shoot, as is my 1903 Springfield.

[cafdfw]

I thought it was just me, but my 8mm was so unpleasant to shoot I only took it to the range twice. My 03-A3's seem pleasant in comparison. Both types are very accurate though.

[GCK]

Every time I get ready to go to the range I look at my K98's and all the cheap ammo I have for them then I think of my shoulder and put them back. I load up a couple of carbines and a few hundred rounds and my wife and I are ready to go.

[Milsurp Collector]

Every time I get ready to go to the range I look at my K98's and all the cheap ammo I have for them then I think of my shoulder and put them back.

Try one of these Past pads, they work! PAST® Recoil Pads (http://www.battenfeldtechnologies.com/past/catalog.asp?family=past-recoil-pads)


http://www.battenfeldtechnologies.com/images/catalog/past-recoil-pads-main.jpg

[dj*]

I had one of past pads the big one I think, never could figure out the right way to strap the dam thing on :banghead:
It seems they always want to slip down. :thdown:

[Art]

I really do think a lot of it's how you're built and stock design. I have a Yugo M48. Recoil isn't bad at all for me with heavy ball manufactured in Europe but the Turkish stuff is just brutal. It leaves me only less damaged than three rounds with Tommy Hearns. The only thing I've found that kicks as hard as that Turk ammo is 12 guage slugs.

M1903's and '03A3's with straight stocks punch pretty well too, especially with commercial ammunition. A "C" stock really tames the recoil in an '03, at least for me.

The U.S. hunting ammo which is loaded down to 30-30 pressures and velocities is a joy to shoot. Of course it's real expensive too.

[Ed Johnson]

Hi All. Same problem with my Mausers. I have a good supply of Greek and Turkish ammo and solved the recoil pain problem by pulling the bullets and reducing the powder charge by about 10 grains. Since I am not shooting at more than about 50 yards, the loads are pleasant to shoot and still accurate.
We probably won the war because the German soldiers didn't want to fire their mule kicking Mausers. LOL..
Best..
Ed

[ROCK]

"We probably won the war because the German soldiers didn't want to fire their mule kicking Mausers"

It would be interesting to compare the range scores of German Army recruits with those of US Army recruits. I'm sure that the Germans trainers must have had a more difficult task teaching marksmanship when the service rifle beat up shooter's faces. I wonder why they never changed the stock design?

I believe the Mauser's high, upward sloping comb is the problem area.
I don't think that the 8mm has much more recoil than a 30.06.
Those that have a 8mm Model 98 that was refitted with well designed sporter stock would know for sure.

[krinko]

I did a little comparison among my various military bolt rifles, to see if the Mauser was some kind of special case in the relationship of cheekbone to stock comb.
Here's what I got;

A.High position---Lee Enfield, '03-A3, M1917, MAS 36.
B.Medium position---Mauser, Carcano, Arisaka, Mannlicher-Schoenauer, Krag, Berthier, K31, Mosin, Dutch Mannlicher.
C.Low position---Snider, Martini, Trapdoor, Swiss Vetterli.

The gap between my cheekbone and the comb measured out like this---High was about 1 1/8", Medium was about 3/4" and Low was welded to the comb.

All the High position rifles were peep sighted models, with the exception of the No1 Lee Enfield. No1, No4 and No5 LEs all seem to share the same bore axis/sight axis relationship. I cannot say if the '03 and '03-A3 fare the same way, as I do not have an '03 anymore.
Medium position rifles cover almost all the more modern bolt actions, built for rounds running the gamut between 6.5 Arisaka to the brutal 230 grain 8mm French Balle "N".
Low position rifles were the Black Powder Cartridge rifles---the Snider, pushing a heavy .58 conical ahead of 85 grains of FFg will try to take your face off, if you don't ride the recoil properly. Even .45-70-500 can't match it.

My head position was determined by the furthest point back on the comb I could comfortably attain while keeping the sights in proper focus. So Mogolians will probably get higher gap numbers.
Anyway, Mausers don't appear to have an especially high comb, vis-a-vis other rifes of the same stripe---and it isn't just the heavy ball 7.92 people are complaining about, either. The Argentine '91, firing at best a 165 grain BT, has also been accused of thumping cheekbones.
Hmmmmm.

Back when I first re-started firing the old rifles on a regular basis, I dumped a Long Branch No4 because I was convinced the rounded buttplate was aggravating recoil pain. I dumped an '03. in a "C" stock, because I was getting punched in the face with the same rounds I could fire for hours in the the M1917 without any ill effects at all.
(My Mausers were never on the "To Dump" list, by the way.)

Now, with many thousands of rounds downrange, all that has changed---the only rifles I won't fire from the bench are the Trapdoor, the Snider, the Martini and the Berthier Carbine...and I'm working on those.

So, what's the root of the Mauser problem, then?
Is it physiognomy, the focal length of the individual and aging eye---any of hundreds of variables---?
Maybe it's just a matter of getting acclimated?
-----krinko

[limazulu]

It sounds to me like everyone is letting the rifle slip back when recoiling. Since the comb rises towards the action then when the rifle slips backwards upon firing the forward section of the comb is catching the cheek. You are supposed to shove that shoulder as tight as you can against the back of the stock and your whole body is supposed to recoil with the rifle.

[jamie5070]

I once saw an interesting P-14 training rifle for sale on epay. The rear portion of the stock had a spring setup whereby if it wasn't fully against the shoulder and compressed, the trigger would not operate. Wish I had tried to get that one.
john

[Lancebear]

Hey Lima,

I agree, not just a tight grip but pulling the stock into your shoulder keeps a lot of bad stuff from happening.

First time I shot high powered rifles (Garand, M1903 with S stock and a Schmidt Rubin) figured I was gonna pay a high price. And I have a bum right shoulder. Well...I took all of them to the range and shot about a hundred rounds or so and the next day I had no bruises anywhere and the shoulder felt the same as it usually does. Pulling the stock into your shoulder is the trick. Sure it also helps to keep your shots on target.

Death to paper targets,

LB

[Art]

I think range scores with a Mauser 98 would be worse on average than with any US or UK battle rifle just because of the putrid sights.

It is also my understanding that the Nazis practiced on sillouette targets so it would be hard to compare that way too.

Frankly I can't shoot a Mauser 98 as acurately as any US or Brit rifle and it dosen't have a lot to do with recoil. It does have a lot to do with the sight set up.

[cafdfw]

Same for me Art. I think the sights are a poor design.
Imagine trying to use them in low light combat conditions.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Yes, it is the sights. I did publish the statistics before, on the old forum, but for those of you who missed it, here is the essence:

The German BDMP holds Enfield-Mauser competitions every year. There is also an Enfield-Swedish Mauser-Mauser competition in Paderborn. This is a rare case of a good number of people shooting with all 3 types on the same occasion, which gives a better basis for comparison than individual impressions. I evaluated the top 10.

The statistics results were quite clear: P14/M1917/Mk4 beat Swedish Mausers, which, in their turn, beat Mausers.

Patrick

[krinko]

Submitted without editorial comment.
Five rounds, 100 meters.
Fired 6/18/02 from a 100% unaltered 1923 Carl Gustav M96.
-----krinko

[BruceV]

I have shot a boat load of M-98 rifles ranging from those that looked like they had been dragged behind a truck to those that were virtually new from rebuild or in exceptionally good original condition. With good barrels and ammunition I have not found it hard to shoot groups equal to 03 rifles using the standard battle sight. Using the aperture on the 03 or the 03-A3, my groups are certainly more consistent for vertical dispersion.

Concerning recoil, I have found that the 03 "S" stock is fine w/ M-2 ball. The "C" and scant stocks are better especially with heavy hunting loads. The KAR-98 is to me quite comfortable even in extended shooting sessions. I do tend to shoot mostly from the prone position using a hard hold. I usually wear a M-65 coat unless the weather is really hot. Then I just wear a shirt.

For accuracy, I glue a small piece of surgical rubber to the buttplate of my K-98 to keep it from slipping up and down on my shoulder. I do the same thing with my 03 and 03-A3 and M-1 rifles. It greatly improves my consistency in grouping.

The above is of course just my opinion based only on my own experience. Your results may be different. Sincerely. BruceV

[Patrick Chadwick]

It depends a lot on your eyesight. I have a strongly astigmatic right eye and poor accommodation (it's the age, y'know). Quite simply, I see the top of a square blade and the top of the backsight as double lines. With the Swedish Mauser and the Swiss G96/11 I can nevertheless line up the doubled horizontal lines and achieve good accuracy. But with the standard Mauser V backsight and inverted V blade I have only a very poor idea of the vertical position. The result is targets which tend to fall apart into two halves after a long session - narrow horizontal spread, enormous vertical spread.

Watching other shooters at BDMP competitions, I have the impression that this age-dependent difficulty is quite common, and partially explains the ranking I presented in my last posting.

One educational factor from learning to shoot wearing glasses - if you value your glasses and your face, you very quickly learn to hold the rifle firmly against your shoulder.

It is like holding up the hind leg of a horse for shoeing - if you hold the leg firmly against the horse, it can push like mad, but no more. Give it some space, and then it can really kick. That too is not theory, but personal experience.

Patrick

[Art]

I don't think most folks would dispute that Mauser rifles, especially those made in peace time are very accurate rifles mechanically. That's only half the equation though. The other half is sighting equipment and trigger pull.

The best metallic sights are correctly made aperture sights. They are much more forgiving of old eyes, and can be aligned very quickly if one is familiar with their use.

After that the best iron sights are probably partridge (square notch, square post) though good U notch and post sights are about as good.

At the bottom, IMHO are the V notch pyramid sights on the Mausers. They are very difficult to achieve precision with compared to the others. As a battle sight I think the Mauser V notch/pyramid set up was probably better in combat than the tiny hard to acquire sights on the M1903 rifles but only marginally so, and inferior to them optically for target work.

That does not mean that an excellent shot can't achieve excellent results with them, especially if he/she has very good eyesight. It just means they aren't as good as most of the other options.

All other things being equal, better sights equate to better groups for the average shooter.

My $.02.

P.S. As I said before I don't find recoil on Mauser rifles prohibitive except with Turkish ball but that's just me and a lot of that has to do with body type and how your face is built.

[Carl R]

I always use slip on recoil pads because I don't like pain. I don't recall having a problem getting hit in the cheek with any type of rifle. The worst rifle for recoil that I had, emphasis on had, was a sporterized M96 Swedish Mauser carbine with the 18" barrel and a commercial stock. It was very light and kicked like a mule on steroids. I've replaced it with a completely matching all original version including the sling that's comfortable to shoot. The ideal slip on pad for my Mosin Nagants are those that come from the French MAS series of rifles such as the 36/51 and 49/56. That also lengthens the pull which is good for me since I'm tall have long arms. I also tend to set the bottom of the buttstock high on my shoulder even if doesn't make solid contact. That keeps my head "horizontal" and my neck fairly vertical. All this is shooting from the bench. For what it's worth if anything. Carl

[tridunc]

I have shot several mausers mostly offhand and they kick like a mule. I use a sling and pull the gun in tight and that is the only thing I know to keep from getting a bruised cheek or bloody lip :yikes:

Reload with lighter loads and bullets, then you can enjoy shooting your mauser.

[RED]

Seriously! I enjoy shooting my Milsurps and recoil has never been an issue with me primarily (I believe) because I never think about it. Another guy I know cusses about how bad his Garand beats him up and that is the first thing he thinks about. I have had total joint replacements in both shoulders and after healing, I can't tell any difference. I have 8MM German, Spainish and Turkish Mausers, as well as a 1903A3 and Moisins. None of them kick nearly as hard as Grandad's old Win. Model 37 12 ga!:nono:

[us019255]

"...It would be interesting to compare the range scores of German Army recruits with those of US Army recruits. I'm sure that the Germans trainers must have had a more difficult task teaching marksmanship ..."

At least by the time we got into France they may have stopped. My old boss who carried a carbine and radio through Italy, France, Belgium and Germany, said one day that the German marksmanship was so bad that they stopped worrying unless there was an active MG42 in the area.

In his case his wound was from Willie Peter and an 88, not an 8 mm.

[rgnewton]

I use a rubber butt cover on the stock of my mauser and 03, that make them both much easier to shoot

[Sarge13]

At 16 I hunted with a 94 Win 30/30. I hunted with an issue K98k 8mm from 17 to 23 at which point I switched to a K 43 semi which I still use today. I have Never considered the K98k recoil to be a problem.
When the 03A3s became available thru NRA I bought one. I've never gotten kicked so hard in my life as with that rifle. I wasn't very long in selling it. I don't think I've shot another since. I also own and shoot Garands & Mosians which don't bother me.
Sarge

[usmc69]

Years ago I picked up a 98K that someone had sporterized the stock. It kicked like the devil with milsurp ammo. I cut the stock and added a shotgun recoil pad. After that I could shoot 50+ rounds of milsurp in an afternoon with no ill-effects. If you want to shoot an 8mm Mauser for fun that is what I recommend. Find a beater Mauser or a cut down stock and use it.

[ROCK]

It's not the recoil impulse to the shoulder that gets me. It's the hit under the cheekbone from that upward sloping comb of military Mausers. Once my cheek is bruised, I'm done shooting Mausers for that range session. I can still fire my Garand though.

Maybe I should eat more and grow a little more fat in my face. :cheers:

[mchl13]

Where is a good place to find a slip-on rubber recoil pad? My M-48 not only beats me up from the bench but the steel butt plate is slippery and difficult to index on my shoulder. I think I need something with a little grip and a lot of cushion.

[gunner]

Last week i fired 40 rounds of .30-06 at 300m and than 20 rounds from a K98k. I couldnt find any difference in recoil. Both used with fabric ammo. After that i used a tip from BruceV. I filled a plastic tube that fits in the hole under the buttplate with birdshot and the recoil is much lighter then before. Try it, it works. Sometime the Mausers recoil is hard because of the usage of German military ammo wich was normaly for the MG42, and that is realy hard.

Regards

Gunner

[Pattern14]

...Sometime the Mausers recoil is hard because of the usage of German military ammo wich was normaly for the MG42, and that is realy hard.

I found the unpredictable WWII Turkish ammunition produced a worst recoil than the German, but my Mausers have a recoil that comes nowhere near that of a Steyr Mannlicher in 8x56R.

Pattern14

[gunner]

Yes, thats right. The Steyr-Mannlicher is short and light and kicks like a mule.

Regards

Gunner

[CRnumber]

I had the same problems until I began reloading, tames the rifle to '03 standards and no fighting the bolt. You guys can have all the surplus you want, I'll stick to my hand loads.

[Alfred]

An account I once read of a battle involving troops (Spanish foreign Legion I think) armed with Remington Rolling Block rifles, in which the troops were pinned down and had to fire several hundred rounds each during a day long battle, told of the soldiers faces being deeply bruised and swollen as if they'd been beaten. The comb of the Remington butt stock was blamed.

A "cheek weld" is conducive to accuracy, but only when no more than a few rounds are to be fired, when hundreds of rounds were fired from powerful rifles the face took a beating.

The lightweight remington 600 rifles got around this by angling the comb so that recoil pushed the edge of the comb away from the cheek.

I don't press my cheek to the comb, I just let my jaw barely touch the side of the comb to insure that I have the same head position from shot to shot.

I've found that slip on recoil pads can adversely affect accuracy, so I simply fold a wash cloth and slide it under my shirt at the shoulder to give just enough protection.

[Ce41]

I own a 1941 RC Kar98k and have fired over 300 rounds with it using various rounds (both surplus and modern ammunition). The first time I ever used it hurt a bit, but since then I haven't had any problems. Light bruising when I don't pull it into my shoulder though.

Just gotta hold it tight and you should be fine. I am not the sturdiest person around either, I'm tall - but not well padded :)

[rayg]

I had the same problems until I began reloading, tames the rifle to '03 standards and no fighting the bolt. You guys can have all the surplus you want, I'll stick to my hand loads.

Same here. The older I got the smarted I got, at least in the kick situation. And I started reloading and making lighter loads that were more pleasent to shoot. Much more fun shooting a rifle with 1/3 less kick. Ray