M1891 Argentine Mauser

[stonewall56]

Does anybody shoot the M1981 Argentine Mauser? I've had two. The first one was sporterized and scope mounted by my friend & his dad. When he was raising some money for another rifle about 25 years ago I bought it from him for $125, scope included. Great deer rifle, flat shooting & accurate. A few years ago I gave the rifle to my son. Well, about two years ago I wanted another one and bought my current un-sporterized M1891 for $185 which I thought was a little high. But, I see on gun broker the prices they're asking and a guy at the local gun show has had one for sale for $285 (maybe that's why he still has it). I have at least two hundred casings for it & I like the fact that you can form new casings from 30 '06 shells. Ten years ago or so I could find loaded Norma rounds for $10 or $12 but not anymore. Midway has it listed for $39.49!!! My current rifle shoots fine but the "V" notch sight is a bear for my eyes to use (need younger eyes!).

I've posted some photos of my rifle, all the numbers match except for the bayonet (the picture of the bolt number didn't turn out well). And yes the crest has been scrubbed on the receiver and bayonet. The number on the cleaning rod is very difficult to see.

Let's hear from Argentine Mauser collectors & shooters. Doesn't matter if you have an M1891, M1909 or whatever. Let's see what you've got.

P.S. I've got the hand guard but I haven't wanted to dismantle the rifle to install it.

[JimF in CT]

I have a "stone-mint" M91 that I never use.

I once had a sporterized M91 that dropped a whitetail for me. (I also made the ammo from 30-06 cases.)

Also, have two, consecutive numbered M98-09's, new/stone-mint, bright receivers, with test targets taped to the butt-stocks. These are covered in protective grease (cosmo??) and are slated to go to my son.
As to the targets, I've always wondered if these rifles were fired at these targets in Germany or after they were shipped to Argentina. The targets have Spanish language at the top.
Anyone out there know?

My "shooter" is a M98-09 with blued receiver. --Jim

[Patrick Chadwick]

Well, mine is what you might call a baby Mauser - the 1891 Engineer's Carbine. Just about the shortest Mauser ever built (there was a cut-down version of the Belgian 1889, but that what not how it was built).

There are several pics of this type in the Olson and Ball books. The sight really is a pain for grandpa's eyeballs. And the sight length is also about the shortest ever - even a Thomson Contender could be better in that respect.

The 1891 has an enormously long freebore (see Olson P. 55). An HPBT type bullet is useless. Dropping a Sierra HBPT into the chamber, the bullet is 17 mm clear of the case neck before it touches the lands!

For good shooting results you need a flat-base (like the classic British 174 gn for 303) or, even better, a long flat-base round nose, like the Hornady. This has produced the best results to date. This is simply because you need the maximum length of best-fitting cylindrical section to guide the bullet down that long freebore.

BTW, the action is not as strong as a 98, which was several development stages later. In general, actions of this vintage should be fed with very mild loads. Even if the system will take it, bending the action body is not conducive to good accuracy!

Patrick

[krinko]

I have this late DWM M91, an unpictured early "C" prefix by Lowe and a nice 1909---as you can see here.
I shoot them all (and without weeping about cheek owies).


Ammunition---Graf and Sons out of Mexico Missouri, sells brass and loaded ammunition. Lots of choices besides Norma and cheap enough to make forming your own out of .30-'06 a big waste of time.
-----krinko

[Carl R]

One of my Argentine Mausers is a cherished possession acquired about forty years ago for $25. It's one of 200 made for the University Battalion and has a B.U. prefix to the serial number. The wood shows some finish wear but it's in very good condition with a mint bore. I need to shoot it again after letting it lie idle for a number of years. In addition to that I have another 1891 that's post '98 and in fair condition, an 1891 engineer carbine, an '09 long rifle that was arsenal reblued, a DWM cavalry carbine, an '09 engineer carbine with the special bayonet adapter for the older model bayonet, and a couple of Argentine manufactured '09 carbines. I've been negligent in giving these excercise, too. I've got brass so I can reload for them. I do have surplus ammo for them but it's not of the greatest quality. Carl

[stonewall56]

Carl, can you post photos? I'm sure others would like to see all that you have including myself. The first one sounds interesting. Was that for a program similar to our ROTC?

[cafdfw]

(I posted this on another thread and just found this thread. I apologize if it's redundant but I'd like to know if these are safe.)

"I inherited this old Mauser from my father about ten years ago. I don't know much at all about this type rifle but my dad sporterized it in the early sixties. He was a traveling salesman back then and worked on it in motel rooms. (Try that today!)

He killed a lot of deer with it when I was young. I know it's not worth anything, and he ruined any collector value it might have had but I wouldn't take anything for it.

I just thought someone might find it interesting or know something about these. I know it is the original caliber. My dad was having a hard time finding ammo for it at times even way back then.

I’ve never shot it. I had one 'knowledgeable' acquaintance tell me these models are not safe to shoot modern ammo, and I don't reload. Does anyone know if this is true? If it is safe, I'll take it to a gunsmith and have it checked out. I know it hasn't be fired in about 40 years. It appears in good condition and bore looks great. My dad always kept his guns oiled and in a gun safe. It would be really nice to shoot my dad's first deer rifle. He had a huge collection of hunting rifles by the time he passed away and my mom sold all of them to a dealer for pennies on the dollar without telling anyone. (It still makes me sick to think about it)
She later regretted it, but she was doing weird things at that time to try to stop the pain of losing my dad.
She saved the Mauser, his .243 Mannlicher, and an old Trapdoor because she knew my dad said I could have them when he passed away".


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[stonewall56]

CAFDFW, It looks like your Dad did a bang up job of sporterising his rifle. It appears that you have an M1891 Argentine Mauser in 7.65 x 53 (first developed in Belgium in 1889). The M1891 is considered an antique and not subject to the GCA of 1968, if it's in its original configuration. Factory loaded ammo is hard to find now-a-days. If you go to the Midway website they have Norma 174gr for $39.49 (Norma is considered to be premium ammo). They also have Prvi Partizan for $14.99 a box. I thought the Prvi would be corrosive and non-reloadable but the description said it is non-corrosive and they are reloadable. My non-scientific opininion is that your rifle is safe to shoot but of course my opinion is worth what you paid for it. The Prvi ammo should be okay for plinking. If you are into reloading your options are greatly expanded. You could cruise the gunshows for Norma brass or create your own from 30 '06 brass. The M1891's are a tough good shooting rifle. By all means, have it checked out and shoot your Dad's rifle. I think you'll be glad you did.

[cafdfw]

Thank you so much Stonewall56!

Old firearms have always held a special interest for me as they seem to have a living link with the past. I've bowhunted only for the past fifteen years but had to have spine surgery last year. I figured I'd take up hunting with a rifle next season because it's too painful to pull back a bow and I'm getting too old to be climbing in trees anyway. I think it would be a special link to use my dad's old hunting rifle to hunt with or to let my son hunt with it.

~ Harlan

[Carl R]

If I get ambitious, I'll take photos and post some or a link to some. The University Battalion M91 is the most interesting. It may have been more like ROTC but I really don't know. Carl

[stonewall56]

I finally found a photo of my old Argentine Mauser that I gave to my son. I had to covert the photo from a Publisher file and it's not by itself as it's laying next to one of its brothers.

[jamie5070]

I have two that I have yet to take to the range, but hope to soon. One engineers carbine and one rifle. Both are in the "C" serial range and my brass handled bayonet is 1102 away from the rifle.
Does anyone know if the rifles were originally issued with the same serial numbered bayonet?
john

[Oregon Bob]

I have an 1891 Argentine mauser that's in beautiful shape, with the crest.

It's been to the range once -- couldn't keep the rounds on an 8 1/2 x 11 sheet of paper at 25 yards.

Was using a friend's reloads. My friend's 1891 shoots just fine with the same ammo.

I'm going to try some different ammo -- I got a few boxes of Privi Partisan a while ago. and I also have some corrosive milsurp. Next on my list: give it a good cleaning and try
again.

Oregon Bob

[Patrick Chadwick]

Oregon Bob, try the following. It's not micron engineering, but it is good enough to narrow down the problem, which is probably in the throat. And the results may give you a great surprise!

If you look at P. 55 of "Mauser Bolr Rifles" by Ludiwig Olson, you will find a drawing of the chamber-throat transition area of the Argentine Model 91. This section is so long that just about every bullet you can find will be completely free of the case neck before starting to engage the lands. It is a real free-bore. No use in discussing why Mauser thought that was a good idea in 1891. that's how it is and we have to live with it.

Try this: get a meter/yard length of screwed brass (NOT steel) rod. Something like 6mm X 1 or 1/4" x 28. Close the bolt. Feed the rod down until it is sitting on the bolt face. Now run a nut down the rod until it just touches the muzzle. I also use a ring with a grub screw outside the nut (away from the muzzle) so this can be clamped for the next stage.

Now withdraw the threaded brass rod. Remove the bolt and tilt the rifle down towards the muzzle, so you can slide (not drop) a bullet into the chamber and down the throat.
Now hold the rifle horizontal. Insert a rod into the action behind the bullet and push the bullet forwards until it JUST touches the lands. If you now reinsert the brass rod and push it gently down the barrel, while still holding the rod at the chamber end, you will be able to feel the point where the rod just pushes the bullet off the lands again. I said this wasn't micron technology, but with practice you can feel this point to an accuracy of 2o thou or so. Now run the nut forward until it just touches the muzzle again. The distance the nut has moved is the maximum overall length of cartridge you could theoretically use. I say theoretically because if you measure this distance you will probably find it is much, much longer than your PRIVI/Partisan cartridge. In fact, in the case of my Engineer's Carbine, it was 17 mm longer than the cartridge case + bullet!

I couldn't get all the shots on the paper either, at 50 meters. The PRIVI bullets, or any other boattail type (I also tried Sierra), just fly unguided down the freebore, hit the throat on a skew, and we have both seen what kind of (in)accuracy that produces.

The only way to deal with such a freebore is to have the largest diameter bullet that is safe in that rifle with the longest cylindrical section you can find - to keep the bullet as straight as possible until it engages the lands.

Next stage: the 174gn flatbase bullets as used for British 303 ammo. Better, but still poor. An dI need them for my Enfields.

Finally: the Hornady flat-base round-nose type. This has the best fit I have found up to now. The long cylindrical portion guides the bullet as well as you can, unless you go to customized lead bullets. These bullets improved my Engineer's Carbine up to 3" groups at 100 meters, and that is for me the end of the road at present, as I just have not got the time for casting 7.65 mm bullets as well as keeping my BPCRs and muzzle-loaders fed.

Patrick

[Larry Gibson]

cafdfw

Looks like your father did a very nice job sporterising the M91. While it has no "collector" value so what? If that were mine and my Dad had sporterised it and used it that rifle would be far more 'valuable" to me as a family heirloom than any "collector' grade M91 would or could be.

Yes it is entirely safe to fire modern ammo in it. Modern ammo (Norma, PVRI and Hornady) are all loaded to the original pressure levels. I have pressure tested all of them with an Oehler m43. The are actually less pressure than the Argentine milsurp that I've tested. I've found the Hornady 7.65 Argentine at Cabella's without problem. It is loaded with hornady's 150 gr SP (.312) and chronographs 2761 fps out of my 24" barreled M91. The pressure is 53,200 psi(M43) which corresponds fairly well to the old 45,000 CUP pressure for SR Mausers. It also is quite accurate in my M91.

Were I you I would get some factory ammo and a reloading outfit and use that rifle on a couple deer/pig hunts or maybe and antelope hunt. Loaded with the .311 gr Sierra gamekings at 2550 fps it would also make for a nice elk rifle. Use it, think of your father, and pas it on in the family so they will remember you and your father.

Larry Gibson

[cafdfw]

Thank you Larry.

I took my dad's old Mauser to a gunsmith and it checked out OK by him.

Several years ago someone told me these were unsafe to fire and I put it in my safe and never attempted to find ammo for it.

I live in Texas and have hunted whitetails and pigs with a compound bow only for the past fifteen years, but health issues are on me now and I couldn't hunt for the past two years. (Spine disease and an operation)

Since your message I tried to find ammo here in anticipation for maybe hunting next season, but so far I haven't found anything.

It's funny how things 'click' in your brain but I remember that my dad had two old boxes of ammo in the 'Norma' brand for many years in the back of his safe near his old Mauser. When my dad died my mom emptied his safe of most everything.

I hope I can find the correct ammo soon and take it to the range. The old scope still has clear optics but I have no idea if they will print after 40 years.
(It would be very cool if they are still close!)

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cafdfw

Looks like your father did a very nice job sporterising the M91. While it has no "collector" value so what? If that were mine and my Dad had sporterised it and used it that rifle would be far more 'valuable" to me as a family heirloom than any "collector' grade M91 would or could be.

Yes it is entirely safe to fire modern ammo in it. Modern ammo (Norma, PVRI and Hornady) are all loaded to the original pressure levels. I have pressure tested all of them with an Oehler m43. The are actually less pressure than the Argentine milsurp that I've tested. I've found the Hornady 7.65 Argentine at Cabella's without problem. It is loaded with hornady's 150 gr SP (.312) and chronographs 2761 fps out of my 24" barreled M91. The pressure is 53,200 psi(M43) which corresponds fairly well to the old 45,000 CUP pressure for SR Mausers. It also is quite accurate in my M91.

Were I you I would get some factory ammo and a reloading outfit and use that rifle on a couple deer/pig hunts or maybe and antelope hunt. Loaded with the .311 gr Sierra gamekings at 2550 fps it would also make for a nice elk rifle. Use it, think of your father, and pas it on in the family so they will remember you and your father.

Larry Gibson

[cafdfw]

PS -
Long story about this little boar, but he attacked me twice while I was ground hunting on a hillside late in the deer season. He ran me up a tree at one point. As it turned out he had been wounded from a gun shot in the top of his snout and he was mad at the world.

I'm too old for this stuff now. Guns again.