7.5 Swiss

[Brewster]

Okay, I'll need dies but what is the best set-up for this, dies, powder, bullets etc...

God dam milsurpitis...:sos:

[Doug]

Hey Bruce!

You might try to contact 762nato on Gun Nutz. Andy has loaded some of this, and his one group that I watched him shoot (five rounds rapid fire at a hundred yards, iron sights) was as good as I can do with a scoped modern rifle. Of course, that is not saying much.... but it was solidly 1.5"........

Doug

[tiriaq]

I've been using Lee dies - have FL, collet, seating. .284 brass FL sized. Nosler 150 Ballistic Tips which were on hand, Fed. GM primers, and a moderate charge of 4895 out of the manual. Going to try some 178 Amax later on. Cases form very easily. Accurate.

[sdh1911]

I can pull 2" groups with my 7.5 off the hard rest with little effort, thing just plain shoots straight-SDH

[Fremen]

I've been using Lee dies - have FL, collet, seating. .284 brass FL sized. Nosler 150 Ballistic Tips which were on hand, Fed. GM primers, and a moderate charge of 4895 out of the manual. Going to try some 178 Amax later on. Cases form very easily. Accurate.

How do I go about changing the 284 brass to 7.5 brass?

[K31]

Just run it into the 7.5 die, and trim to the proper length. But why even bother, when Trade-ex has Privi Partizan 7.5 Swiss brass for less than you would pay for .284?

[diopter]

I've been using Lee dies - have FL, collet, seating. .284 brass FL sized. Nosler 150 Ballistic Tips which were on hand, Fed. GM primers, and a moderate charge of 4895 out of the manual. Going to try some 178 Amax later on. Cases form very easily. Accurate.

Tiriag:
You'll like the 178gr Amax.


100 yds is pretty close, so bullet choice is not too critical at that range. The further out you go, the better a bullet you'll need.

I've settled on 178gr Amax and 44gr Varget, until I get more opportunity to test other powders and bullets. I have F/L dies from Lee, RCBS and Hornady's New Dimension in 7.5x55. I prefer the Hornady, but the others are usable too. The Privi brass does have to be trimmed too.
Use good lube. I had stuck Privi brass in the RCBS sizer when I tried Hornady's One Shot pump bottle Lube. With the Lee dies, the de-capping pin could be used to drive out the case, whereas I had to remove the RCBS dies, drill and tap the case(1/4-20). Save yourself the trouble and use good lube to start. I'm using castor oil now.

[sillymike]

Aren't the Lee dies cut for the K11 rifle, while the Hornady/RCBS cut to the K31 standard?

Most loads for the 308 should work well in the K31...

[diopter]

All of them will work fine with the K31, but those dies marked for the K31 might be too wide to chamber properly for the M96/11, M1911 and K11.

All my sets of 7.5 dies are for the M1911 dimensions. Think of it as if you are reloading for an autoloader and need those cases F/L reszsed for reliable chambering and firing. With the tight throat on the K31, neck sizing is not needed and can cause chambering problems if just ever so slightly off.

These dies bring your brass back to original, unfired specs for GP11.

[NuJudge]

It would help to know which of the Swiss rifles you were going to shoot the ammo in. The K31 tends to blow the case out to the sides a lot, but they typically have very tight headspace and the rifling starts just ahead of the case neck.

The last of these considerations means that you have to have a bullet that starts to taper just ahead of the cannelure, or where a cannelure would be. If it does not taper quickly, you will be jamming the bullet into the rifling, giving you chambering problems and perhaps pressure spikes.

I like the Remington bulk softpoint 165gr. In my K31 rifles and my 1911 Carbine, it has shot better than Sierra 168 Match Kings. I had trouble with several Hornady designs.

I like powders that are in the 4350 to 4831 speed range. A lot of other people like 4064 speed powders.

I'm shooting Swiss brass with Russian-made PMC primers. They seem to be mild, but the flame jets are very long, visible at the muzzle.

Christopher Dingell

[Beadwindow]

I've loaded up some 7.5x55 with Graf's Brass and 150gr Winchester Softpoints through Lee dies and so far have experienced no problems firing them through the K31 and M1911. Granted, I've only fired five or ten rounds through the K31 and about 20 through the M1911, but so far things are looking promising for both rifles. The powder used was the starting load for H414 in the Lee Manual, which gives pleasantly moderate recoil.

[chrsm]

my personal pet load to date is 44gr varget, 150 nos ballistic tip, 2.94 OAL with a 1/4 inch turn lee fatory crip. feeds in all my K31's. tried at least 1/2 dozen balls with three other powders.

[lakeview]

which swiss do you have?

There is a slight difference between the models.

These rifles are zero at 300M, use this distance to check you loads against mil surp ammo-[hard to beat!]

Redding makes dies that are set up for the k31 Swiss.

Norma makes ammo or components :
powder ( norma 203-B, 204 and MRP)
brass cases &
bullets -{standard .308 inch} (9.7 g Norma FMJ, 10.9 g Sierra MK & 11.7 g Norma Oryx) for Swiss 7.5 by 55mm

[scrmblerkari]

I love the Swiss rifles, have a good assortment, and shoot most of them. For the K 31 I am usually expecting to shoot a 2" group or better at 100 yards, not counting first shot w/cold barrel. Something that has worked well for me to extend case life is just to neck size as far down as the bullet is going to seat, and let the case, which expanded on the last shot, center itself in the chamber. (The assumption is that the brass is only used in that rifle.)
I use 4064 IMR powder, in the 44 gr. region, and am careful to seat bullets deep enough that they won't get stuck in the rifling if I have to extract a loaded round (yes it could happen to you, and it makes a gawdawful mess!). You need to check this seating depth on your own rifle with unloaded, seated bullets. I have been using 150 gr. Sierra flat-based spitzers since there is no ballistic advantage to a boattail at 100 yds, and some benchresters say the flat-bases shoot better. Who knows? I doubt it makes any difference when we are looking at 1" groups as fantastic. The only time I full-length resize is when I feel resistance when pushing the bolt all the way home. If I have to give it a little extra bang with the heel of the hand, it is time to resize. Most people full length resize every time, but I separate my brass according to the rifle that it goes to, neck-size as a rule, and with infrequent
FL resizing it lasts for many reloadings. I have never (knock on my head) had a case separation, ever, with any of my S/R's using this method and periodically inspecting cases. Nor have I had a case refuse to chamber. So
this is just my way loading for these wonderful rifles. Do whatever you do carefully, keep notes, save your targets w/load data, and go shoot the x's
out of the middle of the 10 ring! Kari

[larryeliz]

In all my research into reloading for my K31, it was determined that Redding 7.5 Swiss dies are ideal for the K31 and the other reloading dies are well suited for the other 7.5 Swiss rifles. Very accurate rifles; I used 150 gr FMJBT bullets and IMR 4064.

My $.02

Larry

[k31swiss]

Just run it into the 7.5 die, and trim to the proper length. But why even bother, when Trade-ex has Privi Partizan 7.5 Swiss brass for less than you would pay for .284?

I agree. I've had good luck with Prvi brass. Either brass or loaded ammo Graf & Sons - 7.5mmx55 Swiss (http://www.grafs.com/ammo/234) .

If you are only loading for one K31, you can just neck size with a Lee Collet Neck Size die. Get much longer life without stretching the brass everytime.

I've got 0.8" groups, five shot, 100 yd. off crossed sticks with my own cast bullet (RCBS 165-SIL) using Reloder 7.

Bob

[Patrick Chadwick]

... the Swiss is one cartridge I am not going to load.

Since I already load such everyday items as 11x60 Mauser, 43 Egyptian and 6,5 Carcano, it's not that I don't know how to do it, it's just that it is pointless (for me, at least). Having tried out various odd factory cartridges that were good enough to demonstrate that the rifle was worth buying, but not exactly match-winning, I found a pack of the original GP11, which was, of course, made for the G11, later K11 and K31.

Quite simply, GP11 is perfectly tuned to the G11 (actually, mine is a G96/11 from the last month of G96 production - I think it never went out of the factory door as a G96, but was instantly turned round and converted to a G96/11 before it was issued). The first group was horizontally +/- 1 mm of dead center, 16 mm wide and 40 mm high. With open sights (which tends to make the vertical spread a bit larger).

That is the best performance with factory ammo that I have ever had from any milsurp rifle without a scope. It took me a year with the M1917 to get that sort of grouping with hand loaded ammo, and with the Enfield No. 4 I am still trying.

The GP11 costs me 50 cents a shot in hundreds, thousand price is around 40 cents, and I cannot beat that for price, and probably never for accuracy.

The Swiss had plenty of time to optimize their ammo, with a reserve army putting in much more serious target shooting practice for accuracy than most professional armies seem to have done. Why reinvent the wheel, when the ready-made one is perfect? Get a sackfull of GP11 and enjoy the shooting!

Patrick

[tony549]

This is a reload recommended by Pierre Ste Marie:
175 gr Berger VLD
45.8 gr IMR 4350
3.060" COL

He stated that this very closely duplicates the GP11 ballistics.
I have not yet personally tried out this load, but plan to in the next couple of months.

[Andy]

This is a reload recommended by Pierre Ste Marie:
175 gr Berger VLD
45.8 gr IMR 4350
3.060" COL

He stated that this very closely duplicates the GP11 ballistics.
I have not yet personally tried out this load, but plan to in the next couple of months.

GP11 ballistics are varioulsy reported as a 174gr FMJ at a 2560-2650 fps MV. That load will not give anywhere near that IMO.

I recently tried 45.0 grs of H4350 (similar to IMR4350) with a Hornady 178gr and found it to be a very mild load - only 2100 fps MV. I also tried 41.5 grs of IMR4064 with the same bullet gave me about 2300 fps, still a mild load (the 44.0 gr load previously mentionned would likely closely duplicate GP11). Both gave good accuracy.

When I have time, I will continue work with H4350, going up until I hit about 2500 fps, which in my gun will likely be in the 50.0 grs to full case range.

A question - how many grains of powder are in a GP11 case, what MV does it give? If about 44.0 grs and a MV of about 2600 fps, that would mean that the powder has a similar burn rate to IMR4064. If about 50.0 grs and about 2600 fps, then it would be similar to H4350 or IMR 4350.

[tony549]

I looked up the 7.5x55 reloading database at hodgdon.com and lists the following load:
180 gr Sierra HPBT
46.0 gr H4350 [MAX!]
2566 ft/sec
Pierre's load is consistent with this single data point. I have a couple of more manuals I can check, but they're difficult for me to access ( I'm laid up with a knee repair surgery and they are up where I can't reach). When I get the chance, I can check the water volume of some new Ruag 7.5x55 brass that I have. If you're going above listed max loads, please be careful.

[Andy]

Note that Hodgdon did not provide pressure data - that's because they didn't take any, because in this case it was guesswork. I already stated that I shot 25 rounds with 45.0 grs of H4350 and my average MV was 2100 fps. 46.0 is not going to give me 2550. My chrony works fine.

Look at Hodgdon's data for the 30-40 Krag - a round that is 10% smaller in capacity than the 7.5x55 and has a very similar SAAMI pressure limit. Hodgdon states 46.0 grs of H4350 (more than for the larger 7.5x55) and state an MV of 2110 fps - 450 fps slower than they state for the 7.5x55. The 30-40 load is believable, but again they don't provide pressure data because they don't have it.

There are many other examples like this on the Hodgdon site. Those that cling to published data are stuck with it.

GP11 contains about 49.5 grs of powder. I bet its Burn Rate is right beside H4350.

[dogtag]

I have a 1911 and the Lee dies work just fine.

[Andy]

178gr Hornady Amax, 2.900" OAL

44.0 grs IMR4064 - avg MV of 2575 fps. Very consistent, very accurate, and a max load IMO

50.0 grs H4350 - avg MV of 2525 fps. Very consistent, accurate, about 3 grs below max IMO (i.e. 2650 fps).

These two loads closely mimic GP11. The listed Hodgdon loads must be estimates, and poor ones at that. The 7.5x55 is just a bit lower in capacity than the 30/06 and has the same bore size, yet Hodgdon lists loads for the 7.5x55 with almost 10 grs less than the 30/06 in some cases.

[Andy]

178gr Hornady Amax, 2.900" OAL

44.0 grs IMR4064 - avg MV of 2575 fps. Very consistent, very accurate, and a max load IMO

50.0 grs H4350 - avg MV of 2525 fps. Very consistent, accurate, about 3 grs below max IMO (i.e. 2650 fps).

These two loads closely mimic GP11. The listed Hodgdon loads must be estimates, and poor ones at that. The 7.5x55 is just a bit smaller in capacity than the 30/06 and has the same bore size, yet Hodgdon lists loads with 7 fewer grs in many cases.

[gunner]

I use for my G 11

167grs. Lapua Silver Scenar
44,0 grs. VV N140
CCI BR 2
OAL 2.97"
2418 fps.

The load has a good accuracy ( around 40 mm )

[tony549]

I have the following for one 7.5x55 unfired brass case manufactured by Ruag:
Brass wt = 12.3 grams.
Water wt = 4.15 grams [64.0 grains](full to top of case neck).
or = 58.2 grains [corrected to base of case neck].

I managed to scrounge up an old Hodgden Load Data Manual No. 26. It implies that that their loads for 7.5x55 are ~40,000+ CUP. The muzzle velocities are quoted for a barrel length of 31 inches, which could explain the velocity differences seen above [180 gr bullet, 46.0 gr. H4350, 2566 ft/sec]. Hodgden stated that their loads are appropriate for 1911 S-R rifles.

On another website I saw a copy of the CIP data page for 7.5x55 GP31, dated 6/14/1984. It listed a Pmax of 3800 bar [~55,000 psi (transducer)].

Vihtavouri's max load for 7.5x55, with 167 gr Scenar, is 45.7 gr VV N140, for a MV of 2493 ft/sec [23.5 inches barrel length]. I recall that VV used CIP max pressure limits.

In my opinion Gunner's or Andy's loads appear to be good to go as reload data guides and I will use them accordingly for my K31's.

[gunner]

Hi tony549 !

I have also a load for the K31 that i use.

170grs Lock Base Lapua
43.2grs VV N 140
OAL 2.97"

The Load is very accurat in this K 31 ( at least if work great on the rifle :-) )
I use it with a scope so the shot group is around 18 - 25 mm at 100m.

gunner

[Andy]

.....I managed to scrounge up an old Hodgden Load Data Manual No. 26. It implies that that their loads for 7.5x55 are ~40,000+ CUP. The muzzle velocities are quoted for a barrel length of 31 inches, which could explain the velocity differences seen above [180 gr bullet, 46.0 gr. H4350, 2566 ft/sec]. Hodgden stated that their loads are appropriate for 1911 S-R rifles....

Thanks - that explains it I think. The Hodgdon loads are max for 1911 rifles (e.g. pre-K31) and the MV's are listed for a 31" barrel. You'd expect 200+ fps less with the K31's 23.5" barrel, and a higher Max load in the stronger K31 action. They either don't have pressure readings, or left them out for their own reasons.

[andiarisaka]

3800BAR = 55,114PSI The method used was transducer and this is for the GP11 ammo. Andy your loads appear to be more in line with my thinking, on the various Swiss rifle sites, I thought they were posting some pretty weak data. One site even removed the CIP pressure from the data sheet. I think many are afraid someone will use data for the K31 in the older and weaker rifles. Considering the capacity of a case once fired in a K31, I imagine even your 50gr, of 4350 is mild pressure-wise. N140 has a burn rate similar to 4064 so your data is good there as compared to VV's max, remembering there's 11gr more bullet.

[Andy]

3800BAR = 55,114PSI The method used was transducer and this is for the GP11 ammo. Andy your loads appear to be more in line with my thinking, on the various Swiss rifle sites, I thought they were posting some pretty weak data. One site even removed the CIP pressure from the data sheet. I think many are afraid someone will use data for the K31 in the older and weaker rifles. Considering the capacity of a case once fired in a K31, I imagine even your 50gr, of 4350 is mild pressure-wise. N140 has a burn rate similar to 4064 so your data is good there as compared to VV's max, remembering there's 11gr more bullet.

What has happened is a common phenomenom. A guy named "St Pierre" was an early poster of load data, and it has been copied ad nauseum on various Websites and Forums, in the process taking on an aura that it is "Gospel". A dearth of other load data, and what Hodgdon has posted, only adds support for it.

Anyone who dares to challenge it, is pointed back to other posts (all with a common origin) that supposedly refute them. Cries of "unsafe, unsafe" abound, and the heretic is silenced. To be fair to many reloaders, they are "cookbook reloaders" who don't really understand things like pressure, powder burn rate and the like, so they rely on "safe" (read published) loads. It's the "experienced" guys who put out the challenge.

To be fair to St Pierre too, I have never seen him claim that they are max loads, just that they are accurate in his guns. I don't always use max loads, but like to know what they are, as accurate loads are often max loads - the case with IMR4064, but not (for me anyways) with H4350.

[tmm1956]

I shoot the Hornady 150gr FMJBT bullet in my K31's. I've tried a number of different match bullets, but they seem to love the cheaper FMJ. With IMR4064 Ican hold the x-ring of an SR target off the bench at 200yds. Top 20 two years ago at Perry with my K31.

www.m1buddy.com

[Andy]

I shoot the Hornady 150gr FMJBT bullet in my K31's. I've tried a number of different match bullets, but they seem to love the cheaper FMJ. With IMR4064 Ican hold the x-ring of an SR target off the bench at 200yds. Top 20 two years ago at Perry with my K31.

The Original M1 Buddy - Home (www.m1buddy.com)

I got excellent results with the Hornady 178gr A-Max over 44.0 grs of IMR4064, but want to try a Hornady 150gr FMJ. I was thinking working in the 44.0 to 46.0 grs range with IMR4064. How does that jive with your own loads?

[Sticker]

Howdy

Well, everybody else has their pet load, here's mine:
Hornady's 150FMJBT over 46grns of Reloder 15 powder.
Outshoots GP11 at 100Y

My Cases: NNY with CCI primers, or GP11 brass with RWS Berdan primers. Both shoot the same.

Sticker

[Andy]

So many powders and bullets, so little time. I would imagine that Varget would work well, and proabaly H-380, a great, but little mentionned powder that works well in the 308.

[Calfed]

I have good luck with Nosler 168 grain J4 Custom competition, 44.5 grains of IMR 4064, 2.865 COAL. in my K31.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/targets012.jpg
http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/targets012a-1.jpg

I shot the rounds with 44 grains first and was sorely disappointed in the group. Not expecting much, I went ahead and fired the 44.5 grain loads and got the two in the lower red portion and the three right below. Amazing what a difference half a grain of 4064 can make.


And 168 grain Hornady AMAX, 43.9 grains 4064, 2.955 COAL in my 96/11.

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Calfed/targets002-4.jpg

Both targets shot @ 100 yards with the standard sights, off a front sand bag rest.

[gunner]

Nice groups. I made the experience by reloading VV powder that sometimes charges with a difference from 0.2 grains can make a better grouping. Wonder why because you only can see a extremly small difference in speed of the bullets.

[Calfed]

Thanks, Gunner.

I can't explain why a few tenths of a grain of powder makes such a difference in group size, but I've noticed it with other rifles that I reload for also.

Makes it all the more amazing that factory loaded ammo does as well as it does, usually.

Is it hard to get reloading supplies in Germany? What kind of bullets, primers, and brass do you use? Reloading press and dies?

Thanks for indulging all my questions

Steve

[gunner]

Do you shoot different bullet weights depending on the weather?

Regards,

Gunner

[gunner]

Hi Steve,
No at the moment it isnt hard. Somtimes it is very expensive. I use PRVI brass with CCI BR 2 primers. Lapua silver scenar bullets in 167grs and for heavy windage and rain 185grs. of the same bullet. I work with a rock chucker supreme press and for the G11 with necksizing and seating dies from Hornady.

Best regards,

Ulrich

[diopter]

European match loads for 7.5x55

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0703/carlosdiaopter/ruagspecs.jpg