I remember when we used to shoot them.

[drm2m]

Back in the late 60s & early 70s my father and I used to shoot these old guys....the rifle ...45 cal approx. was quite accurate.
A Pennsylvania style rifle with a Joseph Manton "Warranted” lock.

The Wheeler & Son English pistol (approx ..64 cal.) might have been lethal at very close range ….perhaps?

I still have the powder, caps and balls for these guns.....but they have been quiet for a long time.

It was great fun……I guess I miss it.

David


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[John Sukey]

Time you went to the range again;)

[drm2m]

John,

My dad died in 1979….I did most of my shooting while he was alive.
He was more of a shooter…..I became more of a collector.

Our gun laws became more restrictive in Canada since then.
I have not encouraged my two sons to become gun guys.

My collection has gone in "wildly different" directions since 1979…but U.S. Civil War stuff remains at the top of my weakness.

You are right…I should probably get back to the range…although in Canada the guns shown below will probably never see the range????

Having said that....when and if I go back... it will probably be with a .22 cal. pistol or rifle?

David

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/ErmaDSC00188.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/276kbsLighterDSC04651.jpg

[Matt Wolff]

:yikes: now im really envious. very nice stg44 and mp40. if i remember right, canada law you can own them, but cant shoot them anywhere??? What if a friend has alot of land, could be brought there to be used??

[drm2m]

Matt,

From what I understand of the Canadian regulations....you cannot get a permit to transport them anywhere except to a licensed gun smith …. or the police.

I you owned a large property (out your back door) in a municipality that permitted firing firearms ...perhaps???

I first saw the gun shown below being fired on the seller's property on a farm in Ontario before I bought it.

David


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/CroppedresizedPPSh-41rightsidefullg.jpg

[Matt Wolff]

damn shame cant use them :( very nice collection still to say the least. unfortunately prices for that stuff here is well out of my budget, and must settle for semiauto versions.

[jjroth]

matching dueling pistol.
As I reviewed the photo,the pistol has no sight, which indicates to me that it MAYBE a dueller. Also the large caliber, was commonly used as the powder charge was small.

Very Nice.

[drm2m]

jjroth,

Thanks for your interest.

I never thought of this pistol as a duelling pistol.

Your comment caused me to take another look at the gun as I always thought it had a front bead sight.....sure enough it does.

I have not been able to find out much about "Wheeler & Son" the English gun manufacturer.....but I really don't have a library that deals with this stuff.

As a kid I had a great fascination for duelling pistols and as soon as I was old enough to take the bus, (back in the 60s) I used to visit an antique shop in Montreal where the owner used to have a few French and English cased sets of duelling pistols in beautiful condition if my memory serves me correctly.

I must have driven the old owner crazy with my naive questions.
The shop is still there.

I still have a fascination for these guns....but my collecting focus went into a different direction.

Maybe someday.....????

Davidhttp://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC03832.jpg

[jjroth]

damascus barrel there, on the pistol. And the blueing is still great.

I recall an late 70's American Rifleman article on dueling pistols, that might be a source also try looking at the NMLRA (national Muzzle-loading Rifle association) on thier website. Better yet, in June travel to Friendship, Indianna, west northwest of Cincinnati, ohio with the best picture available. Someone there should be able to help.

[Capt Quahog]

Back in the 1970s while working out in California, I happened to get hooked up with a Civil War / Indian War group. Back then, many of us had original guns that we used for blank and some live firing.

Remember using an 1860 Colt revolver that I had picked up from a man in Costa Mesa. He used to get many former movie prop guns used in the old westerns. That was one of those . . . "Wish I had kept it" things. The 1860 was finished in a worn "nickel" wash. There were two crossed arrows with the initials U.S.S. underneath. Later on, the 1860 Colt was identified as being marked for the United States Scouts. Actually packed that cap n' ball pistol up into the high desert above Victorville back in 75'.

Always kept some .44 caliber ball, wads and grease packed in the saddle bag just in case. Also had about 20-rounds of fresh live 45-70 blackpowder rounds for the carbine too. They might have been antique guns but still lethal weapons if needed.

We also had original trapdoor carbines, rifles and 1860s muzzleloader Springfield muskets. There were Sharps and Spencer carbines too. Rigged one of the Spencer Carbines to shoot blanks using cut down 50-70 brass cases. The thing actually fed from the magazine tube. That was a rush! After a make believe gun fight on the boarded sidewalks of an old movie set town, there would be choking billows of dense gun smoke hanging in the stagnant desert air. Sometimes a person could hardly see the hand of front of him.

Got to fire some of the weapons from horseback. They'd hire out these movie studio horses that were trained not to get spooked by gun fire. You'd signal to the horse with your knees that weapon fire was about to happen. The animal would brace himself with both front legs and get steady. Pop! Pop! Wow! I was shooting from the saddle just like in a John Wayne movie! Yee haw!!!

It's a wonder that some of those Civil War era handguns didn't just blow apart on us. Can't recall being all that careful with not overloading those open frame hundred year old revolvers with fist fulls of black powder.

Was younger and better looking then and much less wise. Had lots of fun though!:dancingbanana:

[dogtag]

You can't overload with BP. The cases were meant to be full.
Of course, if you stuff in 4F, all bets are off.

[Teleoceras]

Dogtag:

You can't overload with BP. The cases were meant to be full.
Of course, if you stuff in 4F, all bets are off.

With a muzzleloader it is very easy to overload which could have painful or fatal consequences.

You are correct about 4Fg though.

[dogtag]

Maybe you missed the word "CASES"
We were talking about Cap'n'ball pistols and BP Cartridge, not muzzleloaders.

[Teleoceras]

Dogtag:

Maybe you missed the word "CASES"
We were talking about Cap'n'ball pistols and BP Cartridge, not muzzleloaders.

No, I was referring to the phrase "You can't overload with BP".

[Matt Wolff]

Ive seen someone blow apart their stock with using just blanks. Idiot put the equivilent of 280 grains of 2f down the barrel of a repro 42 springfield with a patch, and fired. recoil almost knocked him over, and shattered the stock. Was damn lucky I wasnt the one next to him, or I would have bayoneted him myself. Though think the other filemates did take care of him, and far as I know ws booted from the hobby.

[John Sukey]

John,

My dad died in 1979….I did most of my shooting while he was alive.
He was more of a shooter…..I became more of a collector.

Our gun laws became more restrictive in Canada since then.
I have not encouraged my two sons to become gun guys.

My collection has gone in "wildly different" directions since 1979…but U.S. Civil War stuff remains at the top of my weakness.

You are right…I should probably get back to the range…although in Canada the guns shown below will probably never see the range????

Having said that....when and if I go back... it will probably be with a .22 cal. pistol or rifle?

David

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/ErmaDSC00188.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/276kbsLighterDSC04651.jpg

Brought back memories. In high school, MANY MANY Moons ago, I was offered a Sturmgeschutz. Actualy allowed to take it home, but had to give it back cause I couldn't come up with the $35.

Was offered the second gun for $125 years later, but NO paperwork, I knew better by then. The other one I had to give up was the 20mm aircraft cannon because my father wouldn't let me bring it in the house:D What the heck, it was ONLY 8ft long and a bit rusty.:eek:

[Patrick Chadwick]

First, a word of caution. There is a lot of nonsense purveyed with regard to flintlock and percussion pistols and rifles, some of it dangerous, starting with the claim "you cannot overload" them. And the "dogtag" quote has already caused confusion as well as being dangerously simplistic, as anyone can confirm who ever stuffed a Martini-Henry case full of whatever powder.

For reliable information on the safe loading and shooting of rifles and pistols, I recommend that you contact your national Muzzle Loaders Association, who might also be able to put you in touch with someone who can make a better "hands-on" evaluation than I can from photographs. For Canada, a good start would be the Canadian MLAIC representative Ed Martin, at oromac@sympatico.ca.

Rifle with "Joseph Manton Warranted" marked on lockplate.
The rifle appears to be what is termed a "drum and nipple" conversion of a flintlock. A pity, as it would be much more valuable in its original condition. Note that the angle of the nipple does not match well to the face of the hammer. The marking "Joseph Manton Warranted" does not, unfortunately, prove anything, as label falsification was rife before modern concepts of copyright were developed and enforced. I am sceptical about the origin of that lock (hence the recommendation above).

As for "Wheeler & Son", there are two entries in Stöckel:

Wheeler & Son, Waterville, Maine, USA, recorded 1877-83 (too late for a single-shot percussion pistol in the land of Colt, Remington etc)
and
Wheeler & Son, Birmingham, GB, 1814-41 and again 1828-43 (a more likely period for the pistol).
Look for a proof mark on the barrel! Is the barrel rifled? If so, most definitely not a duelling pistol. In the days when duelling was actually practised, the pistols were all smooth-bored. Rifling was "not cricket".

However, it was common for those with the necessary funds to purchase pistols intended for personal protection in pairs, for the very simple reason that the typical shooter has two hands. So the non-historical habit has grown up, encouraged by dealers and sellers, of calling all paired flintlock or percussion pistols "duelling pistols". In fact, you will find just about any pistol so labelled in the cause of attracting the buyer's attention! It's the same sort of nonsense as the habit of describing any and every muzzle loader as "with a possible Civil War connection".

Patrick

[drm2m]

Patrick,

I believe the Wheeler is Birmingham manufactured.
It is a smooth bore and not a duelling pistol.

I suspected that the Joseph Manton "Warranted" lock was purchased by the manufacturer of the rifle and installed on the piece he built.

I do not believe it was a converted flintlock.

Manton sold "Warranted" locks for this purpose.....I think?

David

[Patrick Chadwick]

I wonder if we are thinking about the same Joseph Manton.
I was thinking of the famous London flintlock maker, 1766-1835. From 1822 -26 his sons worked with him, and the firm operated as "Manton and Sons". Joseph actually spent some time in prison for debt (1828), and the firm went bankrupt in 1829. Hence my wonder at a percussion lock marked "Joseph Manton warranted".

However, there was another Joseph Manton - in Montreal! Recorded from 1860-71 at 46 Great St. James, subsequently in Craig St. until 1894.

I humbly suggest that the Canadian Joseph Manton is a much more likely supplier of a percussion lock on a Canadian rifle.

(All info from "Stöckel", German edition of 1979, P.753)

Patrick

[drm2m]

Patrick,

Good question....I am sure I don't know.
This rifle was purchased in Montreal years ago ?????

David

[drm2m]

Patrick,

I bought this book back in the early 70s after I gave this rifle to my father for Christmas.

After looking at the book tonight I see no references to Montreal or Joseph Manton "Warranted" lock markings.....so I am not much more wise in this regard.

I suspect that they did manufacture (convert) flintlocks to "cap locks"
(Percussion...that I did see)

Thanks for the Manton /Montreal reference....I had no idea.
Some family......not a clue?

David

Click on the bar to enlarge the photos.


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[M1Tommy]

Back in the late 60s & early 70s my father and I used to shoot these old guys....the rifle ...45 cal approx. was quite accurate.
A Pennsylvania style rifle with a Joseph Manton "Warranted” lock.

The Wheeler & Son English pistol (approx ..64 cal.) might have been lethal at very close range ….perhaps?

I still have the powder, caps and balls for these guns.....but they have been quiet for a long time.

It was great fun……I guess I miss it.

David

The folks at the TMA would definitely appreciate seeing those photos.

Tommy

LINK to TMA forum:
Traditional Muzzleloading Association (http://www.traditionalmuzzleloadingassociation.com/forum.html)

[Patrick Chadwick]

Sorry drm2m, Stöckel does not mention any family connection.
I wish I had that book "The Manton Supplement"!
If you look closely at the photo of Col. Hawker's rifle you can see what is meant by a "drum and nipple conversion" - A piece that was inserted to replace the original flintlock touch-hole in order to convert the rifle into a percussion rifle. Look at your own rifle. Looks similar in principle. Even looks as if it has a square boss to tighten/unscrew the insert.

I would still follow the principle of Occam's razor - don't look for complex answers if a simpler answer fits the facts. In this case, for a rifle bought in Montreal, with a lockplate marked Joseph Manton, the obvious provider is the Joseph Manton who was active in Montreal at about the right time. However, as we are both not quite sure, the advice of M1Tommy sounds sensible.

Patrick

[drm2m]

My father and I used to shoot these two original CW pistols back in the early 70s.

Remington New Model 1858 Army Revolver and Starr Model 1858 D.A. Army Revolver.

Would I ever do it again….NEVER!
Not original pieces ….with original finish and clear markings.

The Remington is an accurate well balanced pistol….the Starr less so.

The Remington is a very nice revolver…..better than the equivalent Model 1860 Colt in my humble opinion.

The quicker exchange of a replacement loaded cylinder with the Remington was a reality.


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David


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The Model 1860 Colt Army revolver.


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC08842.jpg

[drm2m]

For some reason the image of the Remington and Starr did not transfer to the post above from Photo Bucket.

David

[drm2m]

The next owner will decide if he wants to shoot these CW revolvers....it won't be me.

Click on the bar to enlarge the image.


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David

[drm2m]

One model holster that served two model CW revolvers.

(Click on the bar to enlarge the image.)

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David

[drm2m]

I have the ammunition...original and reload...I can not bring myself to shoot these two CW carbines/Indian war conversions.

Model 1860 Spencer carbine and New Model 1863 Sharps carbine.


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These guns will not fit into...."I remember when we used to shoot them".

David

[drm2m]

Years ago I bought these .50-.70 cartridges for this New Model 1863 Sharps carbine (center fire conversion of 1867)
with the thought of shooting this gun….it has never happened.

The cartridges are a mix of original cartridges and cartridges
that came from Dixie Gun Works.

David

Click on the bar to enlarge the images.


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[drm2m]

As I look back…there was a time when shooting these guns would not have been a second thought.

Something changed?

David

(Click on the bar to enlarge the images.)


Model 1851 Colt Army-Navy...martially marked with U.S. on the frame..with inspector's cartouche on the grip.


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Model 1842 musket , .69 caliber, with decent markings.


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Model 1849 Colt Pocket model with clear markings and some original finish.


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[drm2m]

Canada is not the best place to be a CW collector….however once upon a time there was a supply of CW pieces at a cost that was certainly less than in the U.S.

I realized some years ago that if I wanted to continue my collecting passion for U.S. Civil War stuff it would probably have to come from the U.S. at a time when the reduced value of the Canadian dollar was a serious issue.

For perhaps this reason I started to focus on other stuff…..and my collection went off in a totally different direction……somewhat crazy..as shown below.

Definately not black powder.
(It was not by choise.)

David

Click on the bar to enlarge the images.


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Close up photo of markings.

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[gunluvver]

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Quite the collection!

[cafdfw]

Absolutely astounding collection!:bow:

[jmoore]

Dang, my primary squirrel rifle is a 42" bbl. half stocked .355" bore that's been in the family since the 1800's. Been shot a blue million times up to the 1930's at which time it sat until I started to revive it in the 1980's. FINALLY reinvented the wheel and freshed out the bore about 7-8 years ago. (hence the odd bore size, that's just at what size it cleaned up!) Shoots thick patched OO buck right well out to 50yds. (.22 rifles just ain't sportin' after the first couple o' hundred or so)

Heck, we'uns have shot an original P'53 Enfield, '61 Eli Whitney, '63 Springfield, '42(?) Springfield percussion musket, plus other stuff I can't even recollect right now, all w/ no harm to the shooters or the weapons. Generally, if they're ugly on the outside but pretty on the inside, its fair game!

[gew8805]

.............................................

Rifle with "Joseph Manton Warranted" marked on lockplate.
The rifle appears to be what is termed a "drum and nipple" conversion of a flintlock. A pity, as it would be much more valuable in its original condition. Note that the angle of the nipple does not match well to the face of the hammer. The marking "Joseph Manton Warranted" does not, unfortunately, prove anything, as label falsification was rife before modern concepts of copyright were developed and enforced. I am sceptical about the origin of that lock (hence the recommendation above).


Patrick



Patrick, some good points made on the shooting of original guns.

I'd like to offer my thoughts on the above mentioned rifle. Due to the configuration of the stock and the style of decoration, I have to say that stylistically the rifle dates to the post-1850 time period and was made as a percussion rifle, it was never a flintlock. The lock can easily date to the mid-percussion period , thus putting the date for the rifle slightly later, my guess would be 1860 - 1870. It was always a percussion lock and is original to the stock inlet. The so called drum and nipple conversion is the simplest way to not only convert a rifle but it is also the easiest way to percussion a new rifle so we find many rifles that were built that way. It has been carefully maintained over the years and the owner should be proud of it as has been suggested.

The hammer appears to be original to the lock, so it is possible that someone over the years unwisely removed the drum (for no good reason, there rarely is) and then, when replacing it, overtightened it throwing out of index. It has been fired many times in it's current position (maybe dry fired?) as the hammer nose is obviously well worn, making actual firing hazardous due to a lack of containment of possible cap fragments.

[wireless_wpn]

Patrick, some good points made on the shooting of original guns.

I'd like to offer my thoughts on the above mentioned rifle. Due to the configuration of the stock and the style of decoration, I have to say that stylistically the rifle dates to the post-1850 time period and was made as a percussion rifle, it was never a flintlock. The lock can easily date to the mid-percussion period , thus putting the date for the rifle slightly later, my guess would be 1860 - 1870. It was always a percussion lock and is original to the stock inlet. The so called drum and nipple conversion is the simplest way to not only convert a rifle but it is also the easiest way to percussion a new rifle so we find many rifles that were built that way. It has been carefully maintained over the years and the owner should be proud of it as has been suggested.

The hammer appears to be original to the lock, so it is possible that someone over the years unwisely removed the drum (for no good reason, there rarely is) and then, when replacing it, overtightened it throwing out of index. It has been fired many times in it's current position (maybe dry fired?) as the hammer nose is obviously well worn, making actual firing hazardous due to a lack of containment of possible cap fragments.

Sorry to replay so late, but now is as good as anytime.

First of all, yes, I have to agree with the above statement.
There are many rifles like this in Southern, Ontario Canada

Joseph Manton was a Gunsmith that was building guns in Toronto, Ontario Canada.
I do not have information on the exact years, but I have a source who will know.

You will see many of his creations threw out Ontario and up-state New York, U.S.A.
He would build to order.
Many of the Manton rifles in Ontario seem to fetch a premium price and not so much in places where he is not known.
There are Manton rifles shot weekly at our Black Powder nights at our local club here in Burlington, Ontario.

Not sure if he produced his own locks or had them stamped.
I presume they where stamped.

[blackcat_attilio]

Hi drm2m! Ya, it's time you went back to the shooting range :thup: . Nice couple!!! :cheers: