50/70 and sling

[snell]

Just a quick note about an old soldier I've acquired. It's a 50/70 trapdoor Ser # 31854 (both breech and barrel), with an 1870 dated breechblock and a 1863 side plate. Overall condition is pretty good with a patina over most of the steel and a good stock with just a bit of the cartouche still visable.
The reason for the post is that the rifle has an interesting sling on it. The sling is stamped "Watervliet Arsenal" and a local collector told me that the sling may be worth more then the rifle.
Does this sound reasonable to you folks here? I believe the rifle is in nice shape and certainly is a good shooter. But now I am considering putting the sling up so it doesn't get damaged if it's that valuable.
Any thoughts? Thanks.

Art

[drm2m]

Art,

In my experience well marked leather accessories in decent condition from this period are often more difficult to find than decent guns. ...i.e. holsters, slings, bayonet and sword scabbards, cartridge boxes etc.

If you plan to shoot the gun I would suggest you remove the original sling and keep it out of harms way.

Do your homework and find out more about the sling....the answers are out there but you will need good photos of markings and measurements of the sling to get a better sense of what you have.
There is a fellow that has a good web site for slings of this period with the correct measurements for an earlier gun like yours.
I could very well be a C.W. rifle musket sling that is correct for that gun?

Well marked slings are worth a few bucks...for sure!
As an example, well marked original, unaltered C.W. carbine slings are worth a bundle.
In the case of certain bayonet scabbards....they are worth more than the bayonets as the leather stuff did not always survive in good condition.....if at all.

David

The photos below show the markings on a M1887 sling.

"E.H.S." is for E.H.Schmitten Leather Goods, Rock Island.

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC08627.jpg

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/AEAslingmarkingDSC03598.jpg

[drm2m]

I like well marked leather stuff.

A ridiculous case in point….years ago I bought two knife scabbards
and I don’t think there is a hope in hell that I will ever
own the knife that goes with them.

How silly is that?

TWO LEATHER KNIFE SCABBARDS.

-Rock Island Arsenal-with inspectors initials W.T.G.
on leather (W.T. Goodrich) RIA on rear of brass hangar.

Model 1887 Hospital Corps Knife Scabbard.
—only 2000 of this pattern knife manufactured.



-Watervliet Arsenal----inspector’s initial
C.H. on leather Hunting Knife Scabbard.

Go figure?

David


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/TwoleatherknifesheathsThesebelongto.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/TwoleatherknifeThesearemysheathstop.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/TwoleatherknifeTheseareMysheathsmar.jpg

[drm2m]

The point of this particular post relates to leather accessories.

Both of the bayonets shown below are of the Civil War era and are
"somewhat” rare ...and their values reflect this.

-Sabre bayonet for the U.S. Model 1841 rifle-A.K.A. -Mississippi rifle.

-Dahlgren knife bayonet.

In the case of these two bayonets the leather scabbards are in quite decent condition......which is not always what is found.

The leather has a huge impact on the collectability of these items. IMHO.

David


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DahlgrenandMississippibayonetstoget.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/Bayonetmarkingonricasso.jpg



http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DahlgrenBayonetCroppedresizedAmesMf.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/CroppedresizedUSNDR1864DSCN0007.jpg

[drm2m]

Where leather accessories can get tricky....in this case...stitching on bayonet scabbards.

These scabbards are associated with the bayonets shown above.

David

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC03775.jpg



The blades.


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/MississippiBayonetandscabbardrearvi.jpg



http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSCN0001.jpg

[rayg]

Those bayonets and scabbards are just beautiful.

Regarding the values of the slings for Trapdoors and also Krags. Same slings were used on both.
They usually sell for $100-$200 depending on condition. Original CW musket slings usually run, $200-$300, Ray

[snell]

David,
I am just green with envy, you have some beautiful items there :super:

Ray,
Thanks for the heads up. The sling will come off the rifle and be kept safe and seperate so as to prevent any damage. Thanks alot :beerchug:

Art

[drm2m]

The Springfield trapdoor .45-70 rifle was equipped with the Model 1887 sling, as was the first bolt-action rifle adopted by the United States, the Krag-Jorgensen. This sling known as the 'Long Tom", was a single piece of leather 68 1/2 inches long. When the Springfield '03 was adopted it used the same Krag sling. However, it was redesignated the Model 1903 and would last just another year. In 1904 two new sling types were approved. In addition to the traditional metal claw and holes for adjustment these slings also had a metal button.

This reference came from something I found on the Internet.
“The Sling”- by Hap Rocketto.
------------------------------------------------------


In my quest to find “leather accessories” to go with two of my C.W. guns I found the holster shown below which was designed to carry the New Model Remington and the Model 1860 Colt revolvers.

Date of manufacture 1863-1865.
Rear markings-- E. Gaylord, Chicopee, Mass.

It is increasingly difficult to find maker marked C.W. period holsters.

(Click on the bar to enlarge the images.)


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC00028.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/ResizedCopyofFullrearholsterwithmar.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/CroppedresizedGaylordmarking-1.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC00036.jpg



http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/260kbsCroppedresizedCartoucheonR-1.jpg



http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC00020-1.jpg



http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC00014-1.jpg


---------------------------------------------------------------




http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC00169-1.jpg




http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC01037.jpg




http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/1860Coltarmyleftsidecylinderscen-1.jpg


David

[rayg]

David, I see you are into CW. Those are super nice original finish revolvers and nice leather. Good condition CW period leather is not always easy to find nor are the guns in the shape yours are in. Maybe you would like to check out my CW through WWII period set-ups here however my CW guns are not as nice, condition wise, as yours are though, Ray
My mannequin displays - U.S. Militaria Forum (http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=2364)

[snell]

Well, I took the sling off the rifle and gave it a good review. It is 68" long x 1 1/8" wide. It has Watervliet Arsenal stamped into it but I saw no inspector's mark.
From what I've read so far it seems to be one of the slings made up by the arsenal from CW msuket slings but I can see no seams.

It currently resides inside the safe (off the rifle now) and will remain there for the immediate future. I wonder how rare this thig really is? Any ideas anyone?

[drm2m]

Ray,

What a treat that was!

Your collection absolutely blows me away….truly superb.

The attention to detail…and your descriptions of the various items is mind boggling.

The amount of “research and knowledge” required to be able to identify and assemble so many different types of items from the C.W. period up to WWII is awesome.

You must have an incredible reference library.

I can’t begin to imagine the amount of time and effort required to find all these pieces and to put the different mannequin displays together.

My compliments on your photography and the manner in which you have presented your collection…. it is truly a thing of beauty.

I have never visited that forum before.

Collecting just firearms is nothing compared to the effort you have gone to.

David

[lboos]

Ray,
That is the best collection i have ever seen. Thank you so much for letting us see it, Outstanding!....lboos.

[rayg]

Thank you gentlemen, It took years to put it together but was a lot of fun searching and finding the correct item for each display. Started with CW and then IW and next period and up through WWII. The best part was the learning experience as I was progressing through the periods The problem is that now I have no more room to add any more mannequins. I could remodel and expand the room but then all I would do is fill that space up. :D Ray

PS I would appreciate it if folks could leave a comment on that thread if they feel they would like to as it's all ways nice to see comments there. That includes any correction suggestions or criticisms etc. Ray

[lboos]

Ray,
If i only had your problem[no space:dunno:]
Between the collection's you and David Have, Guy's like me can only dream:super:.

[drm2m]

Ray,

Space....or the lack of it causes us to really think about a few things ...I suspect.

The options; (And there are perhaps many more.)

-Edit what you have...which in your case may not be the case.
-Become increasingly mindful of the pieces you purchase because of the space issue.

Your collection has expanded into numerous collecting periods and themes over the years.....I can sure relate to that.

The new piece you trip over ...or the quest for additional knowledge in a field that was previously less known.....all part of the affliction....I guess.

It can be an endless passion as I am sure you know better than most of us.

So expand your space......or what do you do?

I have run out of space and I have not gone the mannequin route you went.
I ask myself the same questions.

I am sure I don't have any wise answers on this subject.

David

P.S.

I tried to register on the Forum that featured your collection…..I would be happy to express my views mentioned above.

Shown below is “part” of my affliction and my sensitivity to the space issue.
(At least in my house.)


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/CopyofFullCivilWarPhoto005.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/296kbsmagineguncollection005.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/288kbsWWIIAmericanCollectionCopyofD.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/284kbsGermanpistolsDSC01113-1.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/280kbsK98MP40MP44DSC01109.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/CroppedresizedCopyofBeltsPouchesBay.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/272kbsleftsidePistolallAccessories.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/276kbsLP08pistoland1916datedholster.jpg

[rayg]

Wow David you have a collection of all my favorite guns. I mean it. Those are the best. Also love those MG's. You do have some beauties there. Sure Like that complete Art Luger rig also. Ray

Art, I'm sorry we kind of went off topic with your thread but as David says, it a passion thats hard to control. :beerchug:

[drm2m]

Ray,

I thought you might be in a better position to respond to Art's question than I.

I don't own a sling of this era.....because I don't own an early trapdoor rifle.

The transition from the C.W. sling on the early trapdoors to the later U.S. Model 1887 sling is not something that I am familiar with.

David
----------------------------------------------------------


Ray,

One of the interesting aspects of the Artillery Luger (LP.08) shown above
(DWM manufactured ,1917 chamber dated) is that it is 'unit marked' with a matching serial numbered magazine.


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/108kbsmatchingmagazine.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC00360-2.jpg


122 FÜSILIER REGIMENT (4.WURTTEMBERG) (122.R.4.6.)



http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/200412301725_122JR221-1.jpg



http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC003482.jpg



--------------------------------------------------------


The P.08 luger shown above Mauser code S/42 1937 dated (including the holster) has two matching serial numbered magazines.


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/264kbspistoltwomagsandholsterDSC038.jpg


I apologise for posting German WWI and WWII pistols on a U.S. Trapdoor Forum...this collecting passion is not a "perfect world."……Sorry!

[rayg]

What a great piece and unit marked as well. Also that photo of a Art luger in battle use is also a prize. Is that the unit the gun is I'd to? Ray

[drm2m]

Ray,

122 FÜSILIER REGIMENT (4.WURTTEMBERG) (122.R.4.6.) 6th weapon.

http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/DSC003482.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/LP08topmarkingsDSC01674.jpg


History of the 122 Füsilier Regiment during World War I, written by surviving members of the Regiment and published in 1921. It details the World War I battle history of this Regiment in 312 pages of text and three fold out maps showing over 60 battle sketches. (From the collection of Jan Still.)


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/200412301443_122JR18.jpg


Page from “Füsilier Regiment 122 in Weltkrieg” describing the battle for Hill 344


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/20041230174_122JR21.jpg


Members of the 122 Fusilier Regiment in Serbia during 1915 enjoying a bottle. From: “Füsilier Regiment 122 in Weltkrieg”1921.


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/20041230143727_Copy20of201900DWMRAD.jpg



Long P08 in action at a battle in France during 1917.(from collection of M. Sublet, France-courtesy G. Machtelinckx)


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/200412301725_122JR221-1.jpg



I don't remember where the photo shown below came from.


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/f17.jpg


David

[rayg]

Fantastic, one of the Lugers in the photos could be yours, Ray

[drm2m]

Who knows Ray…it would have had to have been in 1917 or later.

I guess that is what makes certain guns particularly interesting when there is solid provenance that places a piece within a definite historical time frame and carried by a soldier that can be traced to certain events.

Some collectors only collect ‘unit marked’ guns together with period photos of the particular regiment in question……a very interesting collecting focus in my opinion.

All of our military guns have a history…..it is unfortunate that most of it remains unknown!


Jan Still very kindly did this historical write up on this regiment on his Forum just after I purchased the rig several years ago.


Historic- tradition information on the 122 Füsilier Regiment, from “Ruhmeshalle unsere alten Armee”. Listed are battles and dates as far back as Napoleon. This regiment’s honour name is “Kaiser Franz Josef von Österreich, König von Ungarn (4. Wurttembergisches) Nr. 122”. Its headquarters/base is Heilbronn (I & III) and Mergentheim (II) and it was founded in 1806.

Note: The percentage of national contingents in the German Army during World War I is as follows:
Prussia and the smaller states 78 percent
Bavaria 11 percent
Saxony 7 percent
Wurttemberg 4 percent
From “German WWI Identity Tags/Disks”, Peter Meinlschmidt, page 56.
Lugers unit marked to Wurttemberg Regiments are rare.

During World War I the 122 Füsilier Regiment was part of the 26th, 105th, and the 243rd Infantry Divisions. The LP08 discussed here in probably went into service with the 122 Füsilier Regiment sometime during August-September-October 1917. It spent the rest of 1917 and 1918 battling as part of the 243 Infantry Division on the Western Front. The issuing Regiment controlled and distributed these Lugers to the troops. The history of these Lugers is the same as that of the Regiment that issued them and the troops that carried them.


I added the ‘snail drum magazine’ (TM08) and magazine loader after I purchased the rig.

David


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/276kbsrightsideofpistolsnaildrumloa.jpg

[John Sukey]

Just a quick note about an old soldier I've acquired. It's a 50/70 trapdoor Ser # 31854 (both breech and barrel), with an 1870 dated breechblock and a 1863 side plate. Overall condition is pretty good with a patina over most of the steel and a good stock with just a bit of the cartouche still visable.
The reason for the post is that the rifle has an interesting sling on it. The sling is stamped "Watervliet Arsenal" and a local collector told me that the sling may be worth more then the rifle.
Does this sound reasonable to you folks here? I believe the rifle is in nice shape and certainly is a good shooter. But now I am considering putting the sling up so it doesn't get damaged if it's that valuable.
Any thoughts? Thanks.

Art
EHS E.H. Schmitten, leather goods Rock Island Arsenal

[John Sukey]

drm2m
those knives are properly called "Riflemans Knives" Of course they were appropriated by other branches as well. There was a pic of artillerymen in camp in the Spanish American War and everyone of them was wearing the 1884 Riflemans knife.

[drm2m]

John,

Rayg has a photo of the following on the link to his collection shown above on page 1 of this thread.

The caption reads;

A model 1880 Hunting Knife. The knife has a wooden handle with a brass guard that is stamped US & Springfield, serial # 3476. It’s in a leather scabbard shown on my 1880 figure. The scabbard has a brass hook to attach it to the belt. The hook is stamped R.I.A.


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/1zpkwp5.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/123qk38.jpg


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/2uhomj5.jpg


It looks like my scabbard shown below which is also R.I.A. marked.


http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/TwoleatherknifesheathsThesebelongto.jpg


[IMG]http://i530.photobucket.com/albums/dd346/drm2m/TwoleatherknifeThesearemysheathstop.jpg


David

[rayg]

David, I believe the one with the leather loop is the 1st pattern scabbard for the knife. The 2nd pattern was made with the brass hook assembly. I'm not near my books so I can't look up the date of the change. Ray

[Louis of PA]

Just a quick note about an old soldier I've acquired. It's a 50/70 trapdoor Ser # 31854 (both breech and barrel), with an 1870 dated breechblock and a 1863 side plate. Art

Art - I have my grandfather's 50-70 with the very same markings on side plate and breech as yours. He taught his many children, boys AND girls, to shoot it and his Model 58 .44 cap & ball Remington, in their back yard in Philadelphia.

Most of the barrel, below the stock line, retains an unusually nice blue like I've never observed in other blued weapons. it's such subtle and unusual bluing, I've had trouble photographing it.

When new, these must have been extremely handsome rifles. Though I imagine they were buggers to keep up with the cleaning gear they had back in those days

Regards,

Louis of PA

P.S. A repro Sears catalog from the early 1900s, my grandfathers era, offers 50-70s at something around $3 to $5.00