Model of 1917s as sniper rifles...

[Critch]

Something I've never quite understood is that is was known that the M1917 was a very accurate rifle. The military tried making the 1903 into a sniper rifle with mixed results; the scope sat too high etc. The 1917 OTOH has a bent bolt already, it seems it would have been easy to take off the iron sights and put on a scope....did they try it or did it get past them?

I have a spsorterized M1917 Eddystone that is extremely accurate..

[kragluver]

Bruce Canfield's excellent book US Infantry Weapons of the First World War shows pictures of a prototype M1917 sniper rifle dubbed the M1918. The war ended before the rifle was ever produced in numbers (I think he stated that only two were made). Anyway, the '17 was relegated to the back seat after WW1 when the '03 was confirmed as the standard issue rifle (up until the M1 was fielded). I love the '17 and have two of them. However, I have to say that my 03A3 is every bit as accurate as my most accurate '17.

[Calif-Steve]

The British made many P14 sniper rifles. I think they used Winchester rifles. After WWI Springfield not only got the M1917 stored as war reserve, but they also halted all rifle production at Rock Island. They would not tolerate any competition.

[terryinvictoria]

I do not have the exact numbers here they are buried in the paperwork but I believe the M1918 sniper rifle conversion of the m1917 was to be equipped with kodak lenses.

As I said the numbers are not here -available--house cleaning and renovation is responsible.

But the number three is in the works. The Winchester company had given kodak an order for either three thousand or thirty thousand lens sets for the optical requirements of the scope manufacturer.

A large quantity of these were on hand at Kodak when the order was cancelled. These sets were used for a few decades after WW1 by US scope manufacturers for their scope tubes. The price was probably right as well?

By June I might be able to dig that article on the M1918 out of the pile.

I think personally that the M1917 rifle would have been a great conversion for a sniper as an example I have a S&K scope mount on a M1917 Winchester just for fun with full wood and bits of course.

The rifle had been bubba'd by a machinist machining the rear sight base off flat, at least I had a flat surface to work with. I then took a junk receiver to work and cut off the rear sight block I needed.

I then drilled down thru the block that held the sight spring, axle, and ears and into the receiver itself.

I then tapped the receiver for machine screws these are under the original factory sight spring so are not seen but the joint line where the two parts--the receiver and the sight top half--meet.

Oh well, it had a sported cut back stock as well--horrid thing at first sight.

But with a cursory look -- the rear sight area actually looks good.

I then took a nice walnut stock and handguards and added then to the rifle with bands and nose cap.

All in all my bubba'd M1918 looks pretty good and keeps the ----following company in the lockup.

a) p14 remington

b) P14 Winchester

c) M1917 Winchester as converted above.

d) M1917 Winchester all original Canadian property marked

e) m1917 Eddystone

f) P14 sported stock and converted to .444 Marlin

g) P14 Winchester converted by Parker Hale as a target rifle with an absolutely stunning walnut stock

h) P14 Remington sporter scope only equipped as are many rifles available new these days, no iron sights at all.

Hmmm some more just cannot remember at this time.

Regards
Terry in Victoria

Regards
Terry in Victoria

[Dan Wilson]

I want to say that Chuck in Denver said that there is an original test program sniper M1917 at the Cody Museum in Montana, I may be wrong but I think he did say so.

Dan

[chuckindenver]

yup,
you beat me to it..i have pictures on a floppy someplace. but try and find a place that will print off a floppy..
they also have all sorts of Winchester experemental rifles on display.

[Gibbs505]

The British made many P14 sniper rifles. I think they used Winchester rifles. After WWI Springfield not only got the M1917 stored as war reserve, but they also halted all rifle production at Rock Island. They would not tolerate any competition.

Yes, only winchester was used according to Stratton. Apparently only a couple of thousand were so converted

[JGaynor]

U.S. Telescopic Rifle Model of 1918

Ordnance ordered (or at least had a requirement for) 50,000 rifles - order cancelled at armistice.
Winchester received an order for 32,000 scopes. None were delivered by Feb1919.
Eastman Kodak Received an order for 42,607 lens sets as the lens subcontractor to Winchester. None delivered by Feb 1919.

The scope was based on a Winchester commercial design and had large heavy W&E adjustment knobs. In testing the knobs tended to break off after a few hundred rounds so its unlikely more than a few samples were ever produced.

The rifle itself was a essentially a sporterized M1917 with milled ears, no iron sights and a full pistol grip half stock. U.S. forces would not seen anything close to it until Vietnam.

Ordnance also tested the Winchester A5 on the M1917 but since only 400 A5's were purchased (excluding USMC purchases for the 03) and 89 Winchester Type B scopes any surviving original examples would be as scarce as hen's teeth.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/jgaynor/model1918.jpg

Regards,

Jim

[JGaynor]

[QUOTE=JGaynor;45324]U.S. Telescopic Rifle Model of 1918

/QUOTE]

There is an actual photograph of a Telescopic Sight Rifle model 1918 in Senich's "Complete Book of US Sniping" that is attributed to Col. Brophy. As far as I know it's the only picture extant. The illustration in my previous post is from a 1965 American Rifleman article.

Jim

[Melanie_Daniels]

with Winchester A5. Got the Rifle on a German arms fair.

[JGaynor]

with Winchester A5. Got the Rifle on a German arms fair.

Melanie very nice! Is it an M1917 or a P14?

Regards,

Jim

[Alfred]

The British made many P14 sniper rifles. I think they used Winchester rifles. After WWI Springfield not only got the M1917 stored as war reserve, but they also halted all rifle production at Rock Island. They would not tolerate any competition.

The M1917 was not particularly well liked by U S Troops according to contemporary sources, though a number of Ordnance officers wished for some of its features to be incorporated in further Springfield development, which did happen in the adoption of the Nickel Steel alloy, but the Enfield pattern rifling which would greatly increase bore life with any propellant was not considered conducive to maximum accuracy.

The major objections to adopting the M1917 were its OAL and weight, with the positioning of the bolt knob as a major complaint.
First High Powered rifle I shot as a kid was the M1917 and of course the pain of the knob cracking my knuckle was far worse than the recoil.
The position of the bolt knob is fine for some one with long fingers, but recruits of smaller stature were becoming more and more common.

Post WW1 the U S Army shrank to all time lows, in the 30's the US Army was about 1/10 the size of the British land forces.
Had there been a need to supply a huge number of rifles in a hurry the stored M1917 rifles would be there. As they were when it came time to supply the Allied forces and provide arms for non combat support troops.

Keeping two rifles in production made no practical sense, difficulties in maintaining parts inventory and training armorers would cause a real mess that was un necessary at the time when funds were short. The M1917 was a stop gap to begin with.
Had the action design been well thought of the British wouldn't have halted production of the P-14 and Remington could have sold the rifle world wide rather than selling only a very few contract rifles to South America.

Another factor is the U S halting all sales of surplus U S military .30/06 rifles for awhile, leaving a small market for Bannerman's Hodgepodge rifles built with a mix of M1917 and Springfield parts.

Development of the Garand made even Springfield production an iffy proposition.

The Springfield Sniper Rifles have a great post WW1 reputation. The only problem they ever had was the available scopes, and that affected any sniper rifle we could come up with till better scopes and mounts came along.

Using the M1917 as a training rifle gave troops expected to be armed with the Garand an opportunity to practice with the apeture sight picture, and adjust to its weight.

[KevinB]

The Dr Murphy Collection

M1917 with Pedersen Device

M1903 Wigh Pedersen Device

M1918 Sniper rifle

Large amounts of Colts

http://www.juliaauctions.com/auctions/div_catalog_278_sh.asp

[Melanie_Daniels]

Melanie very nice! Is it an M1917 or a P14?

Regards,

Jim

M1917

[Melanie_Daniels]

The Dr Murphy Collection

M1917 with Pedersen Device

M1918 Sniper rifle

Firearms - October 2009: Selected Highlights (http://www.juliaauctions.com/auctions/div_catalog_278_sh.asp)

Ups, I need photographs for a german language book.

[Dan Wilson]

M1918 Sniper rifle

Wow, a scoped BAR huh, nothing like a select fire sniper LOL

I know thats not what you meant but that was the first thought through my little pea brain :)

Dan

[Alfred]

Wow, a scoped BAR huh, nothing like a select fire sniper LOL

I know thats not what you meant but that was the first thought through my little pea brain :)

Dan
In the old sci fi movie "the Omega Man" the hero used a BAR with the early night vision scope. Most thought this inncorect but they apparently mated these Infared scopes to the BAR and the 1919 MGs as well as the M3 Carbines.

Theres several M1917 rifles at the Springfield Museum that are cut down like the Sniper version. These may have been cut for tests on how removing part of the fore end affected accuracy.
A photo gallery was at this link but the site seems to be down for awhile.
pbase will be right back (http://www.pbase.com/mrclark/springfield_armoury_museum)

[CapnHawk]

I personally saw two M1917 sniper rifles while in SE Asia in 1970-71.

[Dan Wilson]

Who was using them? US or other forces?
Regardless they were most very likely modified on an individual or unit basis long after the US M1917 program was long over.

But I would be interested to hear more on this.

Dan

[JGaynor]

I personally saw two M1917 sniper rifles while in SE Asia in 1970-71.

Any chance they were Australian P14 snipers (rifle No. 3 Mk 1 T*) By 70-71 Us Forces had largely moved to the Remington 700 (USMC) or M14 variants (M21) (US Army).

Even our allies were casting off obsolete stuff by then. I have a Thai marked M1903A4 that came back to the US in 67 or 68.

Regards,

Jim

[CapnHawk]

Dan, the M-1917's were carried by two members of the 75th Rangers, IIRC. One of the Rangers told me that his rifle was brand-new, still covered in Cosmoline and wrapped up like a mummy. Took him half the day to field strip and clean his weapon prior to placing it into service.

[Dan Wilson]

WOW, man I would love to get pics or other info about this, would be a very very interesting addition to the known history of this rifle.
Wonder if I can get ahold of any historical info from them, will give it a shot and see what I come up with.

Many thanks

Dan