Lithgow Sniper Rifle No1 MkIII* HT (AUST)/1

[Son]

Just to remind myself to make time to do the pictures and notes needed for Badger to assemble another Milsurp Knowledge Library entry, I thought I'd start a discussion on what rifles we would like to see in there. So far, being almost exclusively a Lee Enfield collector, I have ventured into the realms of the unknown a couple of times and looked up a different rifle. I found the pictorial tours to be very important tools for my education's sake, and would like to recommend everybody take the time out once a week to introduce themselves to something new. We aren't all going to become experts on everything, but we will know where to find the answers if we need them.
The rifle or firearm you thought of recommending.....? Have a look, it may already be there.


....and to satisfy the title of the thread that got you all to have a look, here's a couple of pics of my HT. I have been collecting data on these rifles for several years, and my survey now covers over 5% of production. If anyone would like to know anything about these, just ask away. It'll also give me a clue as to what to include in the blurb with the MKL entry pics.

To Badger- a big public thankyou for your work here.....:beerchug:

Son.

[Claven2]

So does that mean you're drafting a new HT MKL entry??? ;)

[Badger]

To Badger- a big public thankyou for your work here.....:beerchug:

Son.

You're welcome Brad.... :)

It's been a very enjoyable place so far and it seems to be growing daily. Thanks to several people like you for support, we hope it becomes a very popular international site over the next few years ... :thup:

That's a beautiful piece and I think if my better half ~Angel (the family Enfield collector) sees that, she'll be on the first boat to Aussie to visit you. :rofl:

It's one item we don't currently have an entry in the MKL for, so if you'd like to take and submit a photo montage of pics, please read the thread titled How do I get my article, collectible firearm or accessory published in the Library? (click here) (http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=22).

We'd love to create an entry for your rare and sweet looking HT ... :dancingbanana:

Regards,
Doug (Badger)

[Son]

You're welcome Brad.... :)

It's been a very enjoyable place so far and it seems to be growing daily. Thanks to several people like you for support, we hope it becomes a very popular international site over the next few years ... :thup:

That's a beautiful piece and I think if my better half ~Angel (the family Enfield collector) sees that, she'll be on the first boat to Aussie to visit you. :rofl:

It's one item we don't currently have an entry in the MKL for, so if you'd like to take and submit a photo montage of pics, please read the thread titled How do I get my article, collectible firearm or accessory published in the Library? (click here) (http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=22).

We'd love to create an entry for your rare and sweet looking HT ... :dancingbanana:

Regards,
Doug (Badger)

If ~Angel~ makes the trip, come along and we'll all take it and the one below out to play. (gotta do the pics on it too, I promise)

[LithgowHT]

Gday, how far away is the Sunshine Coast from where you are Son? I'd love to take my HT out for a shoot with your nice looking low mount.
Email me back if you like.

[jb303]

Hi,

I have purchased a 1917 SMLE HT (low mount) in good condition with lots of markings and alas no scope, except for the one currently on ebay:

On the rear of the stock it is stamped R then M.A. then 10/47
Rear sight has OA 42 stampings
bolt is stamped 10/47
Barrel serial number is: 60178
Rifle serial number is: 79385
the low mount bases are numbered: 1965

On the barrel it is stamped "H" then H.V then S.C
On the left side of the barrel its stamped 1' 34 and then a crown, then this is followed by a crown stamp with a 3 then L and arrow, this is then followed by another stamping of a crown with 31 then crossed pennants with stampings of L on the top and P on the bottom.

On the right side of the barrel it is stamped with the 7 pointed star three times and under each of theses stars it is stamped 1 for the first 2 for the second and 3 for the last star.

The bolt matches and there is a H stamped on the neck, the magazine is stamped with a star with a 3 underneath the star.

The front wood and rear wood have stampings of SLAZ and J and B with crowns and stars.

I know that this rifle is surplus and God knows where it has been, some people have said it was used in korea? and others seem to think it was used as a police sniper rifle.

I am thinking of restoring this old gem to its former glory in the near future, but I would love to find out a little more about it.

Would appreciate any feedback on the stampings and history if anyone knows where the HT's ended up.

Cheers
John
JB303
John

[Badger]

I am thinking of restoring this old gem to its former glory in the near future, but I would love to find out a little more about it.

Would appreciate any feedback on the stampings and history if anyone knows where the HT's ended up.

Hi John .. :)

With thanks to Advisory Panel members Lance, Son, John Thorne, Wheaty and Jollygreenslugg for their assistance, there's an entry in the Australia - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here) (http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=37), complete with a 222 picture photo montage.

Australian No.1 MkIII* H.T. Sniper Rifle (click here) (http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=3591)

c/w matching serial number A.O.C. Model 1918 (3x) Scope
(Mfg by Australian Optical Co., Victoria)

c/w Canvas web sling with an inside layer of hard plastic (latex?).
(Mfg in 1941 by B.H.G. Ltd)

This is one of only 481 rifles (short bracket) converted by Lithgow and this particular rifle is documented as having been sent to stores on Sept 19th, 1945.

There are several follow up sections with additional pics noted in the "Collector's Feedback and Comments" section of the main library entry, covering the progressive numbering of mounts and what to look for, pics showing font and stamping examples with extreme close-ups (helpful in spotting incorrect or reproduction components), a discussion of the WWII ersatz canvas sling, a discussion and pictorial comparison of "low" and "high" mount versions of these rifles including A.O.C. scope markings, plus some excellent videos of another H.T. sniper rifle currently in a private collection and also a tour of the Lithgow facility showing video of their internal H.T. collection.

Hope this helps get you started... :thup:

Regards,
Badger

[LithgowHT]

Gday buddy I hate to have to say this but there are a few things that seem inconsistent with the rifle..
1. when the upgrade happened, the bolt head was replaced and headspacing set to a more tighter tolerance, look for specific engraving on the head like R58. My rifle shows such an example, also listed in HT modification manual.
2. the cocking piece was always replaced from the old round style as shown to the newer square ribbed shape. Less metal to strike the hand.
3. the barrel was almost always numbered to the action body, in my rifles case there are no numbers on the H barrel, only lithgow proof marks. Certainly not two serial numbers.
4. the fore end timber was re-stamped SLAZ 44 for instance just below the muzzle, including a timber plug on the underside where the ring bolt previously was. This stamp sometimes denotes reaming to allow for the larger diameter barrel.
5. the H on the but looks too close to the cocking piece and doesn't conform to the standard size or shape. Also check if there is a S N L stamp between the rear sling swivel and brass butt piece, this determines the authenticity of the but timber.
6 at first glance the mounts for the scope seem much too tidy for the overall condition of the rifle, cannot see from the photos but check the punch marks.
7 in some cases underneath the barrel a H is stamped inside the furniture, also not the case with mine.
8 the serial number is not listed in Ian's book, the main reason I didn't buy the rifle myself.

MA is typical of lithgow stamps, the magazine springs are modified as HT standard, as are some rivets, look for a rubber/leather gromet on top of the stock but bolt showing factory authenticity. however these are not critical.

Feel free to send any more pics bloke, I'll gladly have a closer look and might ask Ian if I get a chance, but from what i'm seeing it unfortunately look like a bits a gun. I hope I'm wrong.

[jb303]

Thanks for the feeedback,

I will try and get some better photos of the HT, The cocking piece has the square ribbed type and the front of the bolt head is stamped MA47.

I will list some new photos soon, hope it is not a made up one, The fore end timber is misssing the plug. Good chances it is what it is. Will post photos soon, thanks for the assistance.

John

[LithgowHT]

Got some pics of my HT, all original built on a Lithgow 1916 action, converted in 1944 and I know for a fact used in a major conflict by an Australian Sniper possibly in Korea.
Apart from being used the condition of the bore is the best I have ever seen for a H barrel, the barrel and Bolt head look as new, and no doubt lovingly looked after it's whole life.
The furniture has the usual bumps and scratches associated with a rifle used in this role, I'm not touching anything and It looks to my repeated close scrutiny completely original. Only wish I had the scope.
Enjoy the pics, feel free to ask any questions, the photos show the usual scope mounts, H stamped stock butt and plugged up fore end furniture. And also the N stamp on the Butt underside, denoting normal length.

ANYONE WITH A P1918 /Aust. High mount PLEASE LET ME KNOW. Not here to make a profit, just an enthusiastic collector.

[Son]

Looks to be in nice condition. Are you sure it wasn't converted in 1945?
What's the number on the bases? I'll check my lists to see if your scope has been recorded before.
The N on the bottom of the butt like that I haven't noticed before. It should be on the bottom of the wrist, and smaller (if marked at all). The long and short butts were marked L and S respectively on the heal (top rear) so that they were easily visible as not being standard.

I don't know how you can tell it's been used in a major conflict by an Australian sniper... Quite a lot of these rifles were used for training purposes right up to the late 70's, and many others were sold to and used by target shooters- which seems to be the case for many that are missing the scopes, as they didn't use them.

I don't have a spare scope- wish I had a boxfull for all the scopeless rifles I have on record! If I hear of a scope coming up, I'll give you a heads-up.

[LithgowHT]

Yeah the the N is a bit odd, seeing as L is for Long and S for short I just assumed some over enthusiastic armourer stamped that for Normal, it's the standard length.

As for the conflict, I bought the rifle off a guy who's father used the rifle as an Australian Military sniper, actual details not discussed in depth for privacy reasons.

The date, you're right 1945. Had a look in Ian Skennerton's book and the serial matches that date, I was going off the stamp on the fore end furniture SLAZ 44.

[LithgowHT]

Also if you have any examples of the L and S markings could you send a link.
Thanks again.

[Son]

Also if you have any examples of the L and S markings could you send a link.
Thanks again.


Just went through my pics- I have an "S" butt on my HT, but no pic of the marking. Also have an early English .22 trainer with an "L" marked butt, no pics of it either. Will remedy that and post them here. Cannot discount the N on your butt- there are quite few ways these rifles vary- this may be another.

[LithgowHT]

JUST MISSED OUT!, well not quite, the guy who listed this HT had his add placed on the site at 2am and was inundated with calls at 3am. Understandably he wasn't happy.

A complete HT with matching scope, sling, pull through and oil bottle. Not to mention a bayonet.
Sold for $4000.
Serial Numbered 23062 A genuine high mount in excellent condition.
Bugger.

[Son]

Yeh, saw that one about midday. I figured the seller was being pestered out of his mind, otherwise why bother getting the "sold" sign up so quick!

Looked very good for the money... I wonder if we'll see the new owner here in a couple of weeks.

Here's the pics of the but markings too. Finally took some pics the other day.

[Badger]

A complete HT with matching scope, sling, pull through and oil bottle. Not to mention a bayonet.
Sold for $4000.
Serial Numbered 23062 A genuine high mount in excellent condition.
Bugger.

Do you have a link to the auction? :thup:

Regards,
Badger

[LithgowHT]

The site is used guns (www.usedguns.com.au)
Cannot help but drool over the one that got away, don't want to inflate prices but I have no doubt that he could of sold it just as quickly for 6000 easily.
Thanks for the pictures Brad, whats the country of origin for those rifles?, would the L be BSA? or Australian.
Heard a bit about the bantam stocks, however could these have been used mainly for range use and not military service?

[Lithy]

Badger, keep a close eye on Son.

He's using your bandwidth to recruit members for his infamous HT Club:D

HT owners aren't to be trusted:nono:

[LithgowHT]

I'm not obsessed with HT Lithgows just ignore my user name......:rolleyes:

[Son]

Thanks for the pictures Brad, whats the country of origin for those rifles?, would the L be BSA? or Australian.
Heard a bit about the bantam stocks, however could these have been used mainly for range use and not military service?

The "L" butt is on a Patt14 No1 .22 trainer, converted by Westley Richards in 1914/15. The butt, marked with the Enfield roundel, would have been fitted at the previous conversion to ConDII in 1905 when it went from being a MLE MkI to Sht LE MkI pattern.

The "S" butt is on my Lithgow HT seen here with a couple belonging to.... that's right, Lithy and Mr J.G.Slugg (also along with a rifle as unpopular as a vegemite sandwich :rofl:)

[LithgowHT]

Well, they say all good things come to those who wait, I did wait although I almost lost the plot. But here it is a genuine high mount pattern 1918 scope to fit my HT Lithgow, how lucky am I, this scope looks new, the adjustments work perfectly and the optics are as clear and unblemished as any new scope today (and even better than some new ones!). Even came with a case!
For Brad: Engraved is Rifle No. 61824 the mounts are numbered 995 and the brass ring has the same number as the mounts.

Now that I have it, I doubt I'll ever part with such a fine example. They'll be selling this as a deceased estate if I never have kids to pass it down.

Enjoy the pic.:D

Oh yeah the case actually has 49031 written on the outside, a different scope number.
5124

[Son]

Congrats on the pick-up, mate! It looks very nice! And there is a reason for that.
The scope was removed from the rifle on the 20/07/54 when it was included in the 100 rifles FTR'd by the factory as an exercise for the tradesmen. Fair bet the rifle hadn't been issued from new, and was taken off the shelf and re-furbished.
This is the first scope of the 100 to turn up in my records. I wonder where the other 99 ended up?
The ring number confirmed by the eyepiece ring are orig. to the scope and it's first rifle.
I've noted several cases with rifle serials on them, some have been in chalk, usually white, others in dark ink. The number indicates a rifle completed and sent to store on the 05/05/45.

[LithgowHT]

Thanks for the info Brad, I thought you'd have some interesting insider knowledge but I'm amazed you know of 100 rifles FTR'd and their serials.
What a shame they took the scopes off these in 54.
Got some mounts with it, however these aren't your standard HT style, more modernized, I would hazard a guess they're a conversion to fit a no.4 judging by the style similarities between the no.4 T mounts...If requested I can post a pic of them but not much to see. From what you've told me the scope was probably a well cared for range specimen No.4 from new, seeing as in 55 this was the best scope available on the market.
The HT timber is being re-furbished at the moment, when done I'll post the completed rifle and scope here.

[Son]

I'd like to see pics of the bases when you get around to it. If they can be identified it may give a clue as to where the other 99 scopes ended up.

[Lithy]

I'd like to see pics of the bases when you get around to it. If they can be identified it may give a clue as to where the other 99 scopes ended up.

My money's on they ended up being used for the same purpose as Matt's HT (fullbore rifles). The vast majority of end users could see no purpose in keeping that weak outdated 'scope lying in the box of bits in the shed and either tossed it or fitted it to the young bloke's .22:crying:

[LithgowHT]

Here's a pic of the bases Brad, the front is very similar to a Lithgow original and the rear screws onto a plate that resembles a No.4 Scope mount pad.

Incidently I'm selling these on ebay right now to try and offset the cost of the scope, however I'm looking for a "as new" set of Lithgow smle Queensland maple for another project which I'd happily swap.

I put that clause in the ebay add originally and the ebay nazis removed my listing because I was trying to advertise a sale outside ebay...wankers.
Oh yeah here's a couple more scope photos. :D love that scope.

5178 5179 5180

[tbonesmith]

I've got one of the 1954 FTR'd ones. S/N 9016. Mounts look much the same as others I've seen.

[Zywina]

Hi guys I know this is not an HT but I recently aquired an Lithgow mark III H from a freind of mine, and this is what I Know about it.It is Marked on the butsocket Lithgow SHT.LE 1917,the reciever ring is marked with ser#69983 wich matches the barrell marking,also on reciever ring is 2 other # (47495
) this is crossed out & the other # below this is 357 with the D^D stamped 2X.Barrell flat is marked (H) with the D^D stamped over this,to the left of barrell flat it is marked (II'33).Infront of rear sight it is marked on the barrell (HV) over(SC).The but stock is marked on the right side near the butplate D^D 1/16 with a 6 below this & a 518 mark below this.I found out that 10 or 11 of these were purchased from Fort William police department in the 1980's wich were used for bear control & tactical purposes at one time, and were now obsolete so my freind bought the lot from them as surplus.The forend stock was cutdown 4" infront of the rear sight ,the hangaurd was taken off from front of rear sight also.Any help with the butstock markings and extra serial# on reciever would be appreciated.Thanks Dale in T-Bay