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Afternoon all,
So, apparently a Singapore Police training rifle, Lithgow L1A1 marked on the left hand side L12A1 and apparently delivered as such....
Obviously British plastic, with an 8 slot New Zealand pattern handguard (that I am still bloody searching for!!!)
I like to pride myself as having a pretty well rounded knowledge of the L1A1 and this is news to me...
https://www.enfieldguns.com/l12a1-22lr
Opinions please Gents.....
I can't speak to it's originality but I sure used enough of them with the kits installed, that would be so nice...except the price. Absolutely stunning price. Hope it's original for that.
Hi Jim, I use my L12A1 kit in both of my L1's, always fun...Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
The seller has misunderstood something I fear.............
The L12 designation was the designation of the sub calibre KIT and not the rifle. There was NEVER a designation of RIFLE, .22" L12. THAT L12 rifle designation WAS THE PRESERVE OF A SPECIALLY ADAPTED SHOTGUN. And what I see doesn't look much like a specially adapted shotgun..........! The L12 kit was KIT, conversion 0.22" calibre, L12A1 for 7.62mm rifle..
That is only my view based on nothing more than my bit-part experience, the EMER, the parts list and the L12 user handbook.
We did have rifles with the kit permanently fitted, caused by the .22" barrel bulging and jamming solid in the 7.62 bore. These were still on charge as a rifle but relegated to indoor training (or out door poaching on the training areas.....) but with a red band around the handguards and all unnecessary parts, such as gas parts and return springs stripped from them. When this occurred, the now .22" rifle was retained IF THE REQUIREMENT EXISTS and a new rifle issued as a replacement. Alas, when the L1A1's were called in for replacement by the L85, these .22" rifles seemed to languish in the backs of armouries or Armourers shops until someone decided what to do with them.
Cheers Peter, I've bashed through my Fal books and all my Lithgow information and can find no reference what so ever to any Lithgow factory .22 L1A1.
I'm starting to smell the whiff of something, but I'll hang fire and wait for Fal 'Guru' Kev Adams to pitch in on specific Singapore contract info.
Starting to drill into this, the seller states
"The Heckler & Koch .22LR bolt kits were used as Heckler & Koch was owned at that time by R.S.A.F Enfield which was 100% owned by the British Government."
Let's then consider that the rifle was manufactured in 1968 and British Aerospace bought HK in 1991??????
Moving on, why has it got two SPF numbers, one on the receiver and one on the TMH?
I don't believe I've ever seen an SPF number on the receiver before either ??????....
Hmmm
Yep...Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler
I seem to recall your stories of rock'n'roll C1's and .22 kits out on the prairie Jim!Quote:
Originally Posted by browningautorifle
I assume you were laying waste to the local wildlife with a C2 Jim, or did you pop the giggle lever and short plunger into your C1?
Mostly gophers but a few duck and the odd Canada Goose or grouse, rabbits... Just a C1A1 on auto with the sub cal, a proper conversion. They sure used up the ammo quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
Hmm, need to check my part kit L1A1’s John, as one of them has a SP TMH but am sure retains original serial number.
Must admit I can’t see any evidence on the upper of original designation being linished…….but out of curiosity I blew the dust off my conversion kit box, as Peter states:
Conversion kit 7.62mm millimetre rifle .22 inch calibre L12A1
Is on the inside label..
So the seller of Faz L1A1 and '75/'80 L42A1 fame pops up with something 'very rare' yet again :madsmile:
I wonder if the kit barrel liner is permanently fixed or removable in which case do I need a permission for just .22lr or both that and 7.62? :lol:
The jury is still out Kev, but the evidence is certainly pointing in one direction!Quote:
Originally Posted by desperatedan
Not the direction I’d be going if I had £4k burning a hole in my pocket…..Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
My guess would be a .22 liner bonded into a 7.62mm barrel.
Judicious use of a Pantograph machine might possibly be involved, who knows....
Only Kev can give us chapter and verse regarding the apparent Lithgow.22 factory builds.
I've never heard of such a rifle in all my years of studying the breed and
I can find zero reference in Ian Skennertons 'SLR Australia's Fal' or for that matter, in my Collector Grade The Fal Rifle, the complete history.
So .....
I've had a look at the photos, that there is of them.
I've compared the markings on the one shown in the original post with the markings of my SPF 6067 Rifle (7.62mm) Assembled in 1963 and looked at a number of other SPF rifles markings and ALL are 7.62mm rifles. The SPF number is a census number, they same why New Zealand originally applied the N/|\Z marking. Census numbers tend to be applied by the crate or rack and have nothing to do with the factory serial number for example if you look at the list below, the dates of manufacture are all over the place in comparison to the SPF number. Armourers have enough to do, without the headache of applying a census number, hence the general rough application of the hand stamped numbers........ sounds like a job for the apprentices.
SPF 473....... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 4111..... AD67 (7.62mm)
SPF 6067..... AD63 (7.62mm)
SPF 6093..... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 7264..... AD68 (7.62mm)
SPF 7675..... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 7751..... AD67 (7.62mm)
SPF 7784..... AD69 (7.62mm)
I've never come across an Australian Lithgow made .22 L12A1 Rifle, They didn't make any such thing.
if you look at the markings you can clearly see how Lithgow roll stamp their markings, they DON'T use Serif's on their '1', its just a 'l'. The 'F' doesn't match either.
As Peter pointed out there are instructions EMER/EMEI Instructions dealing with what to do with a rifle with a stuck L12A1 barrel. Its possible a workshop in Singapore altered some rifles for the SPF, but I would expect to see some form of marking from the workshops. The L12A1 didn't come arrive till about 1966/67, I can't see them being used by the SPF for a decade, a bit like New Zealand and Australia. Realistically they didn't see the kits until the late 70's and were restricted use. I can't see the SPF getting them earlier.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../yvMiqhC-1.jpg
I wonder if we should save the example for future reference? Stolen from "Enfieldguns"
Oh dear. As soon as the Statute of Limitations has passed I may have some stories to share.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclark303
---------- Post added at 03:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:34 AM ----------
Not with that scoped Territorial Rifle for sale at around the same cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
When you look closely at the photo of the 'L12A1' I think you can make out some signs of apparent work to remove the original L1A1 designation. There are a couple of witness marks - a radius at the left end of the serial 'flat' and what looks like the sharp corner/edge of the end of the top of the charging handle slot has some rounding (although could be wear & tear?).
I've got a mint ex-SPF Lithgow L1A1 and have had a quick look and it's not showing the same marks :)
Photo of mine and the L12A1 to illustrate what I mean.
Attachment 133918Attachment 133920
I'd think you're safe, you escaped down south. Those have been out of service since...87?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper740
---------- Post added at 07:50 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:48 AM ----------
One would want to measure the thickness of the body side at that area for comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by desperatedan
Attachment 133921
So here's the markings of an SPF Lithgow from my collection, as additional reference.
I've still yet to see SPF marking on the receiver on any other example?
Quote:
Originally Posted by nzl1a1collector
Cheers Kev, the court has heard the evidence from the expert witness, the jury is back and the verdict is a unanimous ' Bullshit!
Someone take his pantograph machine away for god's sake!
If the seller told me today was Sunday, I'd have to check the Calendar
Gezz I need to proof read my replies! Reads like I had been drinking. Sad thing is I hadn't LOL.
If anyone else has a SPF marked rifle add your number and the Year of assembly and I'll expand the list, ohhh and calibre in case yours is a .22
My example Kev
AD7104498 SPF1392 oddly mine isn't .22lr.......LOL
---------- Post added at 09:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 PM ----------
It depends if he sold you the Calendar Roy....
For Kev, although body and TMH aren’t matching serial numbers,
TMH : SPF 1950 AD71
Body : UB60A**** ( I bet the matching body to the above is one of these rare .22 ones , just my luck ??)
Evening Geoff, as this is clearly a composite build, we can guarantee the kit came from Helstons, my guess would be the barrel maker ( whoever he is) had a barrel that he had issues with and couldn't be used for full bore, hence gorilla gluing a .22 liner in permanently to create this build.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduke6
I would love to see a picture with the handgurds off, I will guarantee it's not to correct L1A1 profile.
Let's also collate this into the thread.....
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=78972
Updated list since I can't edit my original Post
SPF 150....... AD71 (7.62mm)
SPF 473....... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 1314..... AD71 (7.62mm)
SPF 1392..... AD71 (7.62mm)
SPF 1480..... AD71 (7.62mm)
SPF 4111..... AD67 (7.62mm)
SPF 4312..... AD69 (7.62mm)
SPF 6067..... AD63 (7.62mm)
SPF 6069..... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 6093..... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 7472..... AD68 (7.62mm)
SPF 7264..... AD68 (7.62mm)
SPF 7675..... AD70 (7.62mm)
SPF 7751..... AD67 (7.62mm)
SPF 7784..... AD69 (7.62mm)
Mine is SPF 7579....AD69 (7.62mm)
Here's a few more SPF examples, if anyone's keeping score:
SPF 2501 AD69
SPF 2259 AD70
SPF 7554 AD68
SPF 7666 AD69
All in 7.62mm.
Back to Singapore Police....... At 40 Base, we used tpo deal with the Singapore Police Field and Base workshop work, via their link man, a really nice Inspector called Gerry (?) Soliano. He occasionally took a couple of us out in the evening, together with our liaison man, Mr Amto, for a decent REAL Chinese meal although he was what used to be called Eurasian. Sad that I remember it, but his father was the bandmaster of the Police Band based at the old Army barracks, the infamous Brit POW compound called Sellarang Barracks.
Sorry about remembering all of these sad facts....... But I wonder what hapened to the 6 Australian Navy Lanchesters that were left in the main armoury at 40 Base!
It's always interesting Peter, I bet the Lanchesters all disappeared as 'trophies' after being declared obsolete and ended up mounted on walls or in the back of cupboards....Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Laidler