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This was asked on another forum.
I'm curious to your thoughts....
The OP asked:
"So I've noticed that the m1 carbine is much more expensive than the m1 garand when the m1 carbine had over 6 million rifles made two million more than the m1 garand (if my numbers are wrong im just going off of Google) but I do know that there were more carbines made than garands so shouldn't the figures be reversed?
More varieties for one thing. 10 vs 4. Plus, I believe more were sent to other countries as foreign aid. Not to mention many more went to US government and state agencies. Then there are all of the subvariants. Also they are easier to handle which makes them more desirable for many shooters. I'm sure there are other reasons too, but those are one ones that come to mind immediately.
Don't forget the 1.5 million M1 Carbines left behind in Vietnam by us and that doesn't include the numbers taken from the French by the Viet Minh or purchased on worldwide arms markets and smuggled to the Viet Cong by China.
On top of the 10 contracted manufacturers, there were many subcontractors who made parts for them, thus creating additional collectible variations.
My guess, (especially after what I observed at the SAR west Gun Show this past December), is that it's partly because of an artificial market created by individuals involved in returning as many examples of Carbines as they can, to how they believe they were when they left that particular manufacturers factory. On the other side of that are the buyers that somehow believe that these "force matched" examples are more desirable than your typical "mix master" and are willing to pay a premium, and more. The fact that it's only original once, doesn't seem to matter to those buyers.
Actually, the very same issue happens to M1 Garands as well, just on a slightly smaller scale due to fewer prime contractors.
I looked at so many Carbines at that show that didn't appear to be anything special (basically good honest mix master shooters), yet had typical Gun Show "Collusion" prices. Anyone who's spent a bit of time looking around at shows will understand what I'm saying. Prices were quite high, and I didn't notice very many Carbines going home with new owners over the three days.
This is just one example, there are of course many other reasons...
Mania…..and it’s a great little gun too!
Alot depends on the weapon - original, restored or rebuilt
How many carbines sell in the 5K to 10K price range ? while a nice restored or original 1940 M1 rifle will sell in this price range, same for Winchester 1941 rifles. Gas trap rifles much higher.
Then you have the mix-masters and cmp offerings with new barrels and cmp wood in the $1000 to $1200 price range which is about the same for a mixmaster/rebuilt carbine
In reality if you add up all production of M1 Garands pre war, wartime and post war the numbers are much closer than expected. With a total of 5,468,772 Garands produced the overall production gap quickly closes up as Garand production continued into 1956 where carbine production ceased at the end of the war.
Overall size and weight, recoil and cost of ammo could be deciding factors as well.
We all know the cost of an item is related to supply and demand, along with other factors. It seems to me that the current supply side of carbines is solely feed from private owners/sellers. Garands are available from private sellers as well but also additional rifles (or rebuilt expert grades) are still entering the market place for purchase from the government via CMP. So the available pool of Garands is still slowly increasing with respect to public availability, but the available carbine population is pretty much fixed anymore.
Not sure how big a lever this has on the relative costs, but it must have some influence. Just my thoughts. Yours?
In the post on the other Forum I'd have to call it a 60 - 40 crowd that preferred the Garand. The Pro Garand guys took the usual shots at the Carbine calling it 'Under powered'. Some of the Pro Carbine guys tried to point out that was because it was being used beyond it's intended use. Basically a no win back and forth that didn't really answer the question. Instead of jumping in to the muck I just posted this:
Start:
All US GI Carbine production was during WWII. The 1st Carbine deliveries were in July of 1942 the last in August of 1945. That's 38 months, 10 Prime makers and likely 1,500+ Sub-Contractors++ So over 6 million Carbines from breaking ground to final deliveries in 38 months. Plus the millions of replacement parts, magazines, ammunition, web gear, etc.
Not getting in to all the variants and sub variants there are the M1 models, M2 Select Fire, M1A1 Paratrooper and the M3 with M2 action and Sniperscope night vision. Even as parts were improved or upgraded no matter the maker, early part or newer part they were made to be interchangeable to fit any model. Every War time part big enough to mark had the Sub-Contractors Code and Prime makers code stamped on it. This was so it could be traced back if there was a problem, Think 'Recall'. Example: EW on a Safety. The E was the Sub Eaton Pond, The W was Winchester, EW, Eaton Pond Safety made for the Prime maker: Winchester.
The M1 Carbine was the 1st US service rifle designed for the use of Non corrosive primer ammunition. The Garand has 3 times the power of a Carbine round. While a Carbine round has 2x the power of a Thompson .45ACP has. For the troops the Carbine was designed for this meant a lot more ammo could be transported with less effort at less cost to Ordnance.
This many US service rifles being built along with the companies that built them, some from the ground up in such a short time, with many Subs being small companies is historic. The study of the markings and the timelines we find interesting. Many of us had Family that were issued Carbines or we grew up shooting them. If Audie Murphy was Happy with his. Enough said on my part. To each and all, Just enjoy your collecting while you can. End
Keep in mind it depends on country as well. In Canada a Garand will generally go in the 2200+$ range well a M1 Carbine will generally go for about $1200-1800. A large part of that being a M1 Carbine in Canada is Restricted which carries much stricter rules than the M1 Garand.
Here in Italy, it is the opposite.
Garands are way more expensive than Carbines.
Just the Paratroopers model is comparable, but you never know if it is a real one or just one which was equipped later on with the foldable stock.
Others have already said it, mostly. There are lots of reasons. I think chief among them is that carbines are simply more "collectable". There is greater nuance in markings, parts, manufacturers, etc. than with garands. With each minutia detail is associated its own level of rarity. There is a specific type of collector class whose collective perceptions and actions drive the prices we all see and follow along with. The nuance is a large part of what drives these collectors, and makes it interesting for them. Just my 2 cents, but I'm not a collector by this definition, I just have to pay the prices they drive like the rest of us.
Thru all this outside the US never entered my mind. Now thinking about it....... Many things don't...... :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eaglelord17
Thx Eaglelord
You would have loved the one M1 Carbine I almost bought about 8 years ago for 600$. Original 2 position sight, push safety, Carbine in rough condition, very likely completely as issued WWII standard.Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
Unfortunately the sale fell though when I found out the gun store that had it said it came from some estate and they still didn't have it legally transferred to themselves so they weren't able to sell it to me yet (even though they had taken my money a month before). I said I wanted a refund as I wasn't going to play games on some potential firearm they don't even legally own.
I can find one in good conditions between 600 and 700€. Almost any producer.
Since I never look for that rifle, I can't recall which ones are more expensive, but that is more or less the price.
Just found these three.
Armi lunghe | Armiusate.it | carabina 30 m1 rock ola calibro 30 carbine., Armi Usate, Armi Nuove, vendita, acquisto
Armi lunghe | Carabina Wichestrer M1 carbine cal 30m1 produzione anni 40 ottime condizioni | Carabina Wichestrer M1 carbine cal 30m1 produzione anni 40 ottime condizioni, Armi Usate, Armi Nuove, vendita, acquisto
Armi lunghe | Armiusate.it | M1 Carbine cal .30 Carbine, Armi Usate, Armi Nuove, vendita, acquisto
500 and 550 €.
I can't judge them, since I don't know the model well, but that is the entry price here. Can grow a bit, but not much.
Another one is out for 700, but has the Paratrooper's stock added. Normal and Para.
I might have to start reconsidering my opinion about semiautos...
I'd buy the Rock Ola and the WRA Springtube for 1050 Euro which today in US funds would be $1,140.04 plus tax.
Those would sell for $1600 - $1800 US Each in my area.
So your paying about a 1/3 of what we'd pay in my area per carbine.
Verrò a trovarti presto :cheers:
Please do it!Quote:
Originally Posted by painter777
If they we on our side of the ocean me and painter might take a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ovidio
I study the history of the M1 Carbine and the 6M produced and it looked like this: The Ordnance had a winner on its hands. It wanted carbines, a lot of them, so they worked with the various companies and pushed them kicking and screaming into full production. Trading barrels and parts, working with amateur businessmen, Major companies and cheaters they got them all going full bore, making thousands of carbines each day. These companies were busting their butts, innovating redesigning, trading parts borrowing to meet their production goals. And just like that Ordnance stopped. Spring of 1944 everyone except Inland and Winchester was sent home with an empty lunchbox. I've heard somewhere that NPM received a huge issue of IBM barrels in the spring of '44. Inland was making so many guns that they asked Ordnance to approve previously rejected barrels that they had on hand. Like "they will work, so why not?"
I get a feeling that the overall production was exceeding expectations and beyond M2 carbines they had more than enough guns to meet demand and future needs. The war was still very much in doubt, so it probably was not that they were seeing the end in sight. The fact that they never made another Carbine and used them in three wars hints that they had plenty.
Why are Carbines so expensive? They are handy useful weapons that are light and fun to shoot. Women and children like them. They don't weigh 9 lbs and can bite off your thumb like a Garand. The M1 rifle is awkward and hard to load until you get used to it. Almost no recoil and cheap ammunition sells a lot of Carbines. On the west coast, there just aren't many for sale at any price.