No 3 Mk I*(T)(A) acquisition

Hello all,

First time posting on this forum, though I'm somewhat of a regular on the enfield forum. I just picked this up yesterday after winning it at a local auction. It's a P-14 redesignated to Rifle, No3 Mk I*(T)(A). This auction house is only an hour from where I live, so I had ample opportunity to examine it, running my greasy mitts all over it. Took stock of my reserves, and saved/begged/borrowed/ rolled my pennies and recycled cans to pay for it. It wasn't cheap, but I won it, and it's mine. I would normally take this into the garage and start oiling it down and caring for it as today would normally be my day off, but I started picking up O/T to pay this down, so I'll post these before I head into work.

Hope you all enjoy

Nice, nice, nice piece. I'd love to get my nose right over one of those for a close up look. I'd also like to shoot one sometime to see how they are...very nice piece.

She's a beaut for sure! One question: did they mark the Pattern 1916 telescope to the rifle as with the Lee Enfield sniper rifle? The rifle appears to be in excellent condition while the telescope looks to have had somewhat harder service. Interesting how the star on the receiver was double struck.

From what I've read, the scopes were old recycled patterns originally fitted to the SMLE Mk III sniper rifles of WW1. The scopes still bear the serial number of the SMLE they were originally fitted to (as this example does). Only the mounts were numbered to the rifle. Other than what I've read in a few arms books, I have no idea where these saw service or if they were stored, then disposed of, post WW2.

Yes that's a beauty, rifles like that don't come by every day, truly a rare find in rare condition!

I like they way you described how you had to scrounge to come up with the resources and almost had to re-mortgage the house as it were to purchase it, but low and behold you stuck your neck out and as a result the new owner. Please let me be the first to know when the novelty wears off, LOL!!!

I hope you're going to take it to the range bench a few times and I think we would all be interested to know the results.

Congratulations on that one.

Was bidding for it too, but actually didn't even manage to become your underbidder :D . Great to know it in the forum. Lovely rifle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smle addict

From what I've read, the scopes were old recycled patterns originally fitted to the SMLE Mk III sniper rifles of WW1. The scopes still bear the serial number of the SMLE they were originally fitted to (as this example does). Only the mounts were numbered to the rifle. Other than what I've read in a few arms books, I have no idea where these saw service or if they were stored, then disposed of, post WW2.

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Congrats on your find. There were only 421 made so survivors must be few. The only reference I have seen to their use in combat is Crete in 1941. Tom Barker was the man concerned and about twenty years ago I corresponded with him via email, initially because a website of his memoirs showed a photo of a No.4(T) and I was wondering if that was correct. By sending photos back and forth and determining what features of the rifle and scope he was certain of, we established he must have been using an Alex Martin P14 like yours, and probably with the same Aldis No.2 you have there. Tom did a lot of damage before he was ordered to surrender on the southern beaches of Crete when evacuation ceased. He suffered severely from PTSD to the end of his life, but found writing therapeutic at times. Two books of his memoirs have been published by his son: "Bayonets and Blue Flames: Surviving Palestine, North Africa, Crete and Stalag IVB" and "Sandstorms and Sniping". I understand the former is an expanded version of the latter.

There are photos of these rifles being used in sniping schools in the UK up to 1943 IIRC and they also appear an inventory of sniping rifles on issue in late 1943.

They pop up in several AWM photos.

Also did "sterling work" on Timor before it fell. Dreadful optic, nice rifle. The Patt 18 (Aust) scopes struggled on with the later No1 Mk3 (T) units until 1976! (That is the "latest" workshop reference (EMEI) I have seen.

Fairly obvious that NOBODY up the totem pole was the slightest bit interested in "serious" sniping, despite all the hard lessons from WW1 and even earlier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bruce_in_Oz

They pop up in several AWM photos.

Also did "sterling work" on Timor before it fell. Dreadful optic, nice rifle. The Patt 18 (Aust) scopes struggled on with the later No1 Mk3 (T) units until 1976! (That is the "latest" workshop reference (EMEI) I have seen.

Fairly obvious that NOBODY up the totem pole was the slightest bit interested in "serious" sniping, despite all the hard lessons from WW1 and even earlier.

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Actually, the rifle did some serious work on Timor after the island fell also. There was a group of Australian soldiers who were left behind and thought dead or captured by the Japanese. These brave soldiers fought on using guerilla tactics killing hundreds of Japanese, many with a No.3 MkI* (T). Pathe news has a short video which can be seen on YouTube with a couple of shots with an Australian sniper carrying the rifle. See the video here: The Men Of Timor (1943) - YouTube

Attachment 135365
Well, I took this rifle out to the range today. I found the section in Skennertons "The British Sniper" on how to zero this scope in its mount. Pretty straight forward, but nerve wracking. I was petrified I would lose one of the tiny grub screws. Anyways, did a quick bore sight and adjustment for windage. I was using some surplus Indian Mk7 ammo. First ten rounds produced a decent group, albeit 12 inches over the POA.
Attachment 135366
After a few more adjustments, I was able to get that elevation down to where it needed to be.
Attachment 135367
Decided to run a batch or handloads through the rifle. Much more consistent, and pretty well-centered.
Attachment 135368
Last group of the day: took it out to 200 yards and was able to put eight rounds into the black. The first round was that high shot at the 8/9-ring. After dropping a bit of elevation, the next seven rounds went into a relatively decent group.
Attachment 135369
But...., there is always room for improvement. This scope is slightly out of focus, so trying to shoot a blurry target is not ideal. Gotta read up on how to focus the Aldis.
I appreciate all the nice comments, and I'll post more when I get more proficient with this rifle and scope. The offset scope does take some getting used to, and I'll be the first to admit it takes extra concentration as it is neither comfortable nor ergonomic. With the weight of the P14, this thing has very mild recoil.
Hope you all enjoy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smle addict

This scope is slightly out of focus

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Is it focus or has it a scum inside on the lens?

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=24864

Here's the 1916... https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=59831

Yes sir, out of focus. When I got back home, I scoured these forums on how to focus these scopes. Easier than I thought. The lock screw on the focus cover plate was loose, and with each pull of the trigger, the focus got a little worse. I set it on my bench, aimed across the valley, then slide the plate back until it was in focus. And the image is extremely crisp and clear too. The lenses are a little dirty due to age, but its. nice and sharp again.

I would not warrant any alarm at the grouping of the Indian ammo if I remember my use of it there was a profound expectation of click - bangs most rounds with copious amounts of smoke and confetti out the tube, I thought my MkIII had become a black powder weapon! P.O.F = Possibility Of Firing...........
Anyway gave up using it went down the reload rabbit hole.

Bit later ~ bought the hard cover version tonight of "Bayonets and Blue Flames: Surviving Palestine, North Africa, Crete and Stalag IVB" looking forward to reading it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smle addict

Attachment 135365
Well, I took this rifle out to the range today. I found the section in Skennertons "The British Sniper" on how to zero this scope in its mount. Pretty straight forward, but nerve wracking. I was petrified I would lose one of the tiny grub screws. Anyways, did a quick bore sight and adjustment for windage. I was using some surplus Indian Mk7 ammo. First ten rounds produced a decent group, albeit 12 inches over the POA.
Attachment 135366
After a few more adjustments, I was able to get that elevation down to where it needed to be.
Attachment 135367
Decided to run a batch or handloads through the rifle. Much more consistent, and pretty well-centered.
Attachment 135368
Last group of the day: took it out to 200 yards and was able to put eight rounds into the black. The first round was that high shot at the 8/9-ring. After dropping a bit of elevation, the next seven rounds went into a relatively decent group.
Attachment 135369
But...., there is always room for improvement. This scope is slightly out of focus, so trying to shoot a blurry target is not ideal. Gotta read up on how to focus the Aldis.
I appreciate all the nice comments, and I'll post more when I get more proficient with this rifle and scope. The offset scope does take some getting used to, and I'll be the first to admit it takes extra concentration as it is neither comfortable nor ergonomic. With the weight of the P14, this thing has very mild recoil.
Hope you all enjoy.

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Nice to see the "old girl" at the range. What distance were those targets shot at once you were dialed in 100yds?

The first two targets were both at 100; the first two were Indian KF 1947 ammo. The next were with a handload. The last target was 200 yards. I plan on taking it out on sunday for another shoot. Now that the scope is in focus, I'm hoping to shoot better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by smle addict

Attachment 135365
Well, I took this rifle out to the range today. I found the section in Skennertons "The British Sniper" on how to zero this scope in its mount. Pretty straight forward, but nerve wracking. I was petrified I would lose one of the tiny grub screws. Anyways, did a quick bore sight and adjustment for windage. I was using some surplus Indian Mk7 ammo. First ten rounds produced a decent group, albeit 12 inches over the POA.
Attachment 135366
After a few more adjustments, I was able to get that elevation down to where it needed to be.
Attachment 135367
Decided to run a batch or handloads through the rifle. Much more consistent, and pretty well-centered.
Attachment 135368
Last group of the day: took it out to 200 yards and was able to put eight rounds into the black. The first round was that high shot at the 8/9-ring. After dropping a bit of elevation, the next seven rounds went into a relatively decent group.
Attachment 135369
But...., there is always room for improvement. This scope is slightly out of focus, so trying to shoot a blurry target is not ideal. Gotta read up on how to focus the Aldis.
I appreciate all the nice comments, and I'll post more when I get more proficient with this rifle and scope. The offset scope does take some getting used to, and I'll be the first to admit it takes extra concentration as it is neither comfortable nor ergonomic. With the weight of the P14, this thing has very mild recoil.
Hope you all enjoy.

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There are no anti-backlash springs under the reticules on these Aldis scopes, so it's possible that your vertical dispersion is partly caused by that. Hard to believe, but that error was repeated on the No.32 until well into production.

Optically those Aldis No.2 and 3 scopes were top quality, it was the mechanics that failed them. Your scope was originally a Holland & Holland fitting on a SMLE by the way.

So after the first range trip, I spent the following days focusing the scope in my garage. Once I was able to obtain a crisp picture, I loaded up a fresh batch of loads and made it to the range.

At 100 yards (first pic), the rifle prints groups just over 1.5 inches (its advertised standard). I'm sure some reticle backlash is worked into these groups (thanks Surpmil for that info). The scope is 108 years old, so I am not expecting bench-rest sized groups out of it.

The rifle really starts to shine at 200 yards (second pic). It was very consistent, and aside from the two errant 9-ringers, the majority of rounds fell into the 10 and x rings. All in all, I am very impressed with the accuracy of this rifle. It is awkward to shoot the offset scope, but it is fun nonetheless.

Next trip will be at the 300 yard line.

Really nice .....lookin forward to the 300yd results

I was finally able to make it to the range today. It was a little warmer than expected, so I was encountering a persistent mirage at 300 yards. After a few small adjustments (I eventually had to set the elevation drum set at "4"), I was able to send 9 rounds into this target. I am still astounded at how well these old optics shoot. This is the furthest distance my local range has. I'm going to have to plan a desert trip to try this rifle/scope combo at distances beyond 300 yards.

Yes, they shoot alright. All that is required is mounts with no play, a reticule likewise, and little or no parallax. Consider the results achieved with scope-sighted target rifles in the second half of the 19th C.: often as good as most modern rifles and scopes.

lol...I also bid on it, and yes it was very expensive

I think I still have a few reprint Infantry training pams for these if anyone is in need. Covers the P'18 and Aldis. It's good to have in your range kit.