UK spec Straight pull Carbine

Hi all,

Cover your ears if you're got a sensitive disposition, or perhaps leave the internet for a few minutes...

As we in the UK are only allowed M1 Carbines in straight pull, with no gas system, do any of our UK members have any of the various makers?

They fall into two camps, UK assembled with new un-ported Armalon made barrels, or ex Italian issue, with (I would guess) new Italian barrels.

I would be very interested to hear feedback for anyone as it's high time to add a Carbine to the collection.

A friend has just bought one off Valmont Arms in Sheffield. Manufactured in Luxembourg I believe from original parts. The original barrel, if still within spec, has the gas port tig welded. His has the original 1942 barrel.
£1600 from memory. I'll see if i can post the pics he put online

ITL Shooting Supplies sells them, mish mash of parts, new barrels and Chiappa woodwork

Attachment 103591Attachment 103592Attachment 103593Attachment 103594Attachment 103595Attachment 103596

This is the Valmont Firearms one he bought. It's money upfront so you don't get to choose.

Thanks Roy, the efforts much appreciated, I'll take a good look...

What does his shoot like?

he hasn't fired it yet, but here is Daniel from Valmont firing his

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7DOMrmDADs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w39xgclur40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jQMmrakoFY

Looks very good indeed, nice to have an original rifle.

If you can, make a solid gas plug and install it the same way a regular gas piston is installed. Assuming your government's rules allow that. I believe you can weld the thing in if necessary.
All that is right out of a book I have about the Carbine, that naturally I don't remember the book's name or author. I'm not at home to look. Tells you how to turn it into a pump action using the same plug plus making and installing the pump handle.

So from the comments and video etc does this mean that there has been some relaxation of the UK spec for straight pulls?

I thought that they had to be a “mix” from the parts bin to avoid being section 5 which meant no original receiver and barrel combination hence the new manufacture unported barrels on everything from L1A1s to Garands etc. How come welded up original barrels are ok now? Also seeing the video, didn’t I read somewhere that all straight pull SKS with welded up gas ports were seized by police in the UK and a dealer ran into trouble over them.

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Originally Posted by desperatedan

So from the comments and video etc does this mean that there has been some relaxation of the UK spec for straight pulls?

I thought that they had to be a “mix” from the parts bin to avoid being section 5 which meant no original receiver and barrel combination hence the new manufacture unported barrels on everything from L1A1s to Garands etc. How come welded up original barrels are ok now? Also seeing the video, didn’t I read somewhere that all straight pull SKS with welded up gas ports were seized by police in the UK and a dealer ran into trouble over them.

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Who knows. My understanding is, because they arrive in the UK as a straight pull they are Sect 1. They go to the proof house, which judging by their previous/recent willingness to assist MOD Police enquiries, would suggest the Proof House see nothing wrong with them.

Caveat Emptor

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Originally Posted by Roy W

Who knows. My understanding is, because they arrive in the UK as a straight pull they are Sect 1. They go to the proof house, which judging by their previous/recent willingness to assist MOD Police enquiries, would suggest the Proof House see nothing wrong with them.

Caveat Emptor

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Thanks Roy. Ordinarily that should provide a UK buyer with some degree of comfort but I thought that typically these "new" straight pulls coming from the EU will come with new EU proof marks and there's no reason for dealers to then send them to either of the UK proof houses. For example my Italian assembled Garand has Italian proof marks.....

Caveat Emptor indeed!

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Originally Posted by desperatedan

Thanks Roy. Ordinarily that should provide a UK buyer with some degree of comfort but I thought that typically these "new" straight pulls coming from the EU will come with new EU proof marks and there's no reason for dealers to then send them to either of the UK proof houses. For example my Italian assembled Garand has Italian proof marks.....

Caveat Emptor indeed!

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Good point. I'll ask what is on the carbine

So with UK "straight-pulls" is there any restriction on the size of magazine that can be used with them, please? Theoretically one would think not but firearm laws appear not always easy to understand, at times.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

So with UK "straight-pulls" is there any restriction on the size of magazine that can be used with them, please? Theoretically one would think not but firearm laws appear not always easy to understand, at times.

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no mag restrictions

Apparently they originate at Luxdeftec. They have some interesting stuff on their site. LuxDefTec S.A.

This is the proof mark, presumably Luxembourg?

Attachment 103668

At least you gentleman can still fire your carbines. IN New Zealand IF you have a special license which is hard to get you may have a carbine but the bolt must not be in it and the bolt must be stored at another listed location other then where you live. So one can have a carbine but cannot fire it.

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Originally Posted by Roy W

Apparently they originate at Luxdeftec. They have some interesting stuff on their site. LuxDefTec S.A.

This is the proof mark, presumably Luxembourg?

Attachment 103668

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I don't think Luxembourg has a proof house.
The mark on the far right as you look at the pic (it is upside down) looks very like its from the Italian Gardone proof house. See pic attached.
The "CIP" is a mark from a proof house as a member of the Permanent International Commission for the Proof of Small Arms (C.I.P.) and I think the "N" means compulsory proof.
So in summary Italian proof I reckon. I must check and see what my Garand has on it.
Attachment 103684

There is a curious juxtaposition regarding the legality of these rifles.

If the conversion is carried out abroad, then it's imported and accepted as Sec1.

If you do precisely the same thing here, then it's regarded as a conversion of a Sec5 firearm and retaines it's Sec5 designation...

A certain UK RFD went to prison for this very thing, among other charges.

The madness of the UK system!

I would personally prefer an example as original and complete as possible.

That may not be anything we want. But it is a lot better than sending it through " captain crunch".

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

There is a curious juxtaposition regarding the legality of these rifles.

If the conversion is carried out abroad, then it's imported and accepted as Sec1.

If you do precisely the same thing here, then it's regarded as a conversion of a Sec5 firearm and retaines it's Sec5 designation...

A certain UK RFD went to prison for this very thing, among other charges.

The madness of the UK system!

I would personally prefer an example as original and complete as possible.

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From when I looked at it a couple of years ago, as I really fancied one myself, its just pot luck as to the origin of the bits that they are assembled from.
I also believe that LuxDefTec no longer make them or the M14's they were doing.
I know Ian at ITL has been trying to get a batch of the new USA made Inland Carbines, but they didn't want to know. He told me they wanted to make them by welding up the gas port, even though they drill them on the production line. He gave up trying to explain them just don't drill them, but they didn't get it. Ian said to me that welded up ports are not UK legal.
When I last spoke to him about 9 months ago he said he was intending to go over to USA and meet Inland people in person to try and explain. He was trying to get a batch of 50 made. Don't know what the current situation is, not that a all new build is what you are looking for though.

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Originally Posted by GeeRam

From when I looked at it a couple of years ago, as I really fancied one myself, its just pot luck as to the origin of the bits that they are assembled from.
I also believe that LuxDefTec no longer make them or the M14's they were doing.
I know Ian at ITL has been trying to get a batch of the new USA made Inland Carbines, but they didn't want to know. He told me they wanted to make them by welding up the gas port, even though they drill them on the production line. He gave up trying to explain them just don't drill them, but they didn't get it. Ian said to me that welded up ports are not UK legal.
When I last spoke to him about 9 months ago he said he was intending to go over to USA and meet Inland people in person to try and explain. He was trying to get a batch of 50 made. Don't know what the current situation is, not that a all new build is what you are looking for though.

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They are doing them, the one pictured was purchased this month. They are sold out of L1A1's though

Hmm, thanks for all the input guys. Variations in for ".30 Carbine"

I will make enquiries tomorrow, having seen the example posted, I really want one!

I have a small bore and carbine/ pistol caliber range only 2 miles from my house, it would be very nice to do some milsurp shooting close to home, instead of a 40 mile trip to my full bore range.

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Originally Posted by mrclark303

There is a curious juxtaposition regarding the legality of these rifles.

If the conversion is carried out abroad, then it's imported and accepted as Sec1.

If you do precisely the same thing here, then it's regarded as a conversion of a Sec5 firearm and retaines it's Sec5 designation...

A certain UK RFD went to prison for this very thing, among other charges.

The madness of the UK system!

I would personally prefer an example as original and complete as possible.

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John, that's an interesting development on what I had understood the accepted position in the UK to be. On the basis that a conversion "ex-UK" is acceptable, then presumably a straight pull Bren (operating from a closed bolt maybe?) shouldn't be a problem if it was a manufactured outside the UK and then imported as Section 1?

It's a nice thought but I wouldn't want to be the one to "test the waters"!

Kev

Absolutely Kev,
As I understand it, this has been cleared and being sold, so it appears to offer some interesting possiblities.

The trick appears to revolve around importing a firearm into Britain as single shot, Sec1 complient firearm.

Maybe,that being the case,it's regarded as acceptable, EU rules (of some sort) overriding UK law?

The thing is, in the EU it's not legal for just anyone to commercially do the conversion from self-loading to manual, the manufacturer has to have a licence. The carbines being transferred from Italy are converted by a licenced manufacturer, have been classified as Category C firearms (essential) and have CIP proof marks and are then transferred to the UK as section 1 under an Art 11 transfer licence. Consequently, regardless of dissenting opinion, these carbines are 100% UK legal. In fact, I know of two carbines (without clear CIP marks) that have been through the London proof house without any problems or questions.

EU firearms law is by Directive rather than Regulation and a Directive must be enacted into the Member States domestic law, so there is no question of any EU rules overriding UK law.

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Originally Posted by oakrisearms

The thing is, in the EU it's not legal for just anyone to commercially do the conversion from self-loading to manual, the manufacturer has to have a licence. The carbines being transferred from Italy are converted by a licenced manufacturer, have been classified as Category C firearms (essential) and have CIP proof marks and are then transferred to the UK as section 1 under an Art 11 transfer licence. Consequently, regardless of dissenting opinion, these carbines are 100% UK legal. In fact, I know of two carbines (without clear CIP marks) that have been through the London proof house without any problems or questions.

EU firearms law is by Directive rather than Regulation and a Directive must be enacted into the Member States domestic law, so there is no question of any EU rules overriding UK law.

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That's good to hear. I have seen one of the M1 Garands that you sell and I was very impressed with the quality. Do you have any plans to bring in carbines?

Ditto, for the Italian Garands, very nice rifles indeed, beautifully manufactured and put together.

---------- Post added at 09:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by oakrisearms

The thing is, in the EU it's not legal for just anyone to commercially do the conversion from self-loading to manual, the manufacturer has to have a licence. The carbines being transferred from Italy are converted by a licenced manufacturer, have been classified as Category C firearms (essential) and have CIP proof marks and are then transferred to the UK as section 1 under an Art 11 transfer licence. Consequently, regardless of dissenting opinion, these carbines are 100% UK legal. In fact, I know of two carbines (without clear CIP marks) that have been through the London proof house without any problems or questions.

EU firearms law is by Directive rather than Regulation and a Directive must be enacted into the Member States domestic law, so there is no question of any EU rules overriding UK law.

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Thanks for your clarification Stuart, that certainly answers the question.

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Originally Posted by Roy W

That's good to hear. I have seen one of the M1 Garands that you sell and I was very impressed with the quality. Do you have any plans to bring in carbines?

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The Carbines are already here, with more Garands available from December. As well as the Galil ARM, Zastava M70 2AB and Israeli surplus M14s. I working to add the MAS 49/56, SVT40 and SAR 80 to my inventory. If I can find the them!

Unfortunately, only certain platforms lend themselves to straight pull or better put "manual loading rifle" or MLR. The restriction is the type of gas system, so piston or direct impingement works but blow-back won't. And sadly, there will never be an MLR Bren unless it is built with completely new parts from the ground up. Section 5(1)(a) firearms will always be prohibited.

With Italian makers providing some material to the UK, is there a straight pull BM-59 being offered in England? Or would that once again, require newly manufactured, unported barrels be produced and fitted. That adds a lot of expense, over just welding the gas port shut.

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Originally Posted by AmEngRifles

With Italian makers providing some material to the UK, is there a straight pull BM-59 being offered in England? Or would that once again, require newly manufactured, unported barrels be produced and fitted. That adds a lot of expense, over just welding the gas port shut.

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BM59 MLRs are available in the UK! I've noticed that this is a rifle is really quite popular in the States, but for some reason very few shooters have even heard of the rifle here in the UK! Frankly, and I may catch some flak for this, but I think that compared to the M14, the BM59 is a far superior firearm.

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Originally Posted by Roy W

Apparently they originate at Luxdeftec. They have some interesting stuff on their site. LuxDefTec S.A.

This is the proof mark, presumably Luxembourg?

Attachment 103668

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No, these carbines don't come from LuxDefTec and don't come from Luxembourg at all. The one's Dan Valmont are selling are Italian military surplus, been in storage for decades with absolutely pristine barrels. Italian proof. Luxembourg don't have a proofhouse, all done in Belgium. While LDT's site is still up, I don't think that they are in business any more. They certainly don't do business with anyone in the UK anymore!

Huuummmm. Pump-action. That could be interesting for a few good reasons. I am always looking for a fun project. A pump-action in 44 Magnum was produced commercially.

Hi Roy, The carbines Dan sold came from Italy and not Luxembourg. Prior to the end of the Transition Period, they were transferred to the UK as section 1 after being modification by a licenced Italian company.