any 6,5 carcano ammo out there. would like milsurp so I can get some chargers with them. luckily a member on another forum is sending me one so I can shoot this safe queen my brother bought years ago.
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any 6,5 carcano ammo out there. would like milsurp so I can get some chargers with them. luckily a member on another forum is sending me one so I can shoot this safe queen my brother bought years ago.
Prvi Partisan ammo is manufactured in the Czech Republic and is sold under a number of different brand names including PPU and Monarch. It is usually head stamped nny. It is boxer primed and non corrosive.
You will have to buy the clips separate.
The Prvi is good brass, but the bullets are undersized, measuring 0.264". Accuracy suffers as the intended bullet size is 0.267-0.268". I'm not generally going to promote a single brand, however only Hornady has taken the effort to make proper components and ammuntion for the Italian rifles.
The accuracy improvement with the new Hornady ammo is impressive! All of our Italian rifles and carbines shoot much better! Most shoot around 2 to 3 MOA out to 200 yards although vertical stringing is common due to the "almost, but not quite, hide the front sight top at bottom of the rear sight notch" method used at distances less than 300m. The Kennedy Rifle clone shoots repeatable 1 1/2 MOA w/ its little Japanese scope (same as the Oswald gun). Works nicely on deer too!
Anyway, try the Hornady stuff; it actually costs a little more than the Prvi but, we've found it to be well worth it! ("we" being myself and a couple of friends)
Get the PRVI with the 264 bullets and fire it off without worrying about the groups, so that you have fire-formed cases. Neck size. CCI250 primers. Then reload with the Hornady 268 bullets over about 28-30 gn of Reloder 15 or equivalent load, seating them just so far in that the case mouth is at the back end of the crimp ring but DO NOT crimp. Overall length for my 91/41 is 75.25 mm (test in your chamber), or a trifle over 3". You will be amazed how the groups shrink. The PRVIs were keyholing and missing the target at 50 meters. The Hornady reloads were instantly 2 MOA. Further optimizatin will require some fettling of the ingenious backsight.
P.S: PRVI Partisan is NOT made in the Czech republic, which does not use Cyrillic lettering, but in ex-Yugoslavia. Hence the headstamp that looks like nny The ns are actually Cyrillic Ps (like the mathematical "Pi").
Patrick
The Hornady manual has really specific loading instructions as they found it was a very "twitchy" round that was easy to produce pressure spikes well into the dangerous range, no doubt due to the long bearing surface of the bullet. Have been loading great ammo with both Prvi and Hornady brass according to the manual, rather reluctant to deviant from their recommendations!
Thanks Jmoore, would you care to reveal the Hornady recommendation? My Hornady manual is outdated, and in this case I really don't want to buy a whole book just for 1 load.
Patrick
Sure, if Hornady doesn't mind! If they do mind, I'll blame you.:slap::) I bought the new manual JUST for the 6.5 data....and was irritated that they did not include 7.35!
Anyway, its not at hand so there will be a slight delay of about 16 hours. (No stinkin' computers at the house!) I do remember that magnum primers are a must.
Dang, forgot the book! Too tired when I got home.
Delays, delays
For the 0.267" bullets Hornady preferred H414 and WW760 powders.
Used Prvi brass for better functioning than Norma. (extractor groove off w/Norma)
Here I quote the manual:
Absolutely do not deviate from the components or loads shown for the 0.267" bullet. Dangerously high pressures may result.
NOTE: Only Winchester WLRM Primers should be used with this data.
NOTE: Use only the components shown. Absolutely do not reduce charge weights below those shown.
Its probably best to round up a manual, yes?
That's interesting. H414 and WW760 are apparently comparitively slow rifle powders - about the same vivacity as Vihtavuori N150 or N550. I have Prvi brass . I can get WLRM primers. The powder may be a problem. Do you think that the warnings reflect a concern that the bullets might jam in the throat and not be expelled from the barrel?
Patrick
Its been found that reducing charges of slow burning powders can lead to wild pressure swings, sometimes resulting in burst actions even w/modern magnums. (Treat this round as a mini-mag throwing crazy heavy bullets for it size.) On the other end, I suspect that the long bearing surface and high engraving forces required due to the deep rifling can create high pressures. Hornady put forth a lot of effort to make this round work as intended, so I'll defer to their expertice! Plenty of other good stuff in the new manual; its well worthwhile.
It might be worth getting in touch w/ Hornady direct to see if they even tried the powders that are more available to you. If it wasn't suitable, no data would be in the book but there may be records showing it WAS tried. On the other hand they may not have gotten to your stuff (only so much time to put into a "fringe" caliber!).
Thanks jmoore, I will try an e-mail, but I will also get the book, as I now have 3 types of "problem" rifle which go best with the Hornady long bullets: the M91/41, the Argentine 1891 Engineer's Carbine, and the Enfield No1 Mk V.
Patrick
You'll probably blow up a couple of hours when you get it just sniffing around for the new info you didn't even think needed! I discovered that the light weight bullet loads have increased dramatically in 38 Special . Iwondered why bullets used to keep getting stuck in the barrel, so I quit trying for several years, then, voila!, Hornady up the loads! No more problems....
There have been several reports of blown case heads with the Hornady .268 bullet. I would be very hesitant to use a bullet for which there is only one safe powder combination.
There's more than one powder listed! You just can't substitute other components willy-nilly. Hornady ran these loads up to full military spec (or a tad more) with the understanding they ought not be fired in crap rifles, which, unfortunately, are rather common w/ Carcanos.
Yumpin' Yiminy! They did use a great service, which the idjits will abuse until Hornady won't stick their neck out for us any more.
If you reload too, prehaps its time to invest in some new manuals.:p
I think the latest information on the .268 bullet in the Carcano only lists the 760/H414 combination.
No thanks!
Link to other posters having problems with the Hornady bullet
The poster mag seems to have used a lot of them in a lot of rifles and has a handle on the problem.
Incorrect, sir!
Again get thee to the manual and quit relying on internet gossip.
Those having problems in that thread all are going outside the bounds of the recommendations and trying to wing it. Mind you, its always best to work up to a max load for YOUR rifle. Yadda, yadda.
Hornady lists six SUITABLE powders W/ two FAVORITE powders.
This is getting old. I'm done. goodbye.
All manuals are obsolete when printed.
How can I possibly be wrong to advise extra caution?
Even Dave Emary of Hornady had problems with the .268 Carcano bullet.
See data here
I have both Italian ammo and US made ammo (WCC headstamp) and both have bullets that measure about .266.
Gee, if he had so much trouble, why did he LATER publish finalized loads in the NEW manual??? (Sorry, couldn't stand it any longer):banghead:
All manuals are obsolete when printed. Who said he made the decision to put those loads in the manual? The handloaders using Hornady's bullets have shot a lot more of them than Hornady has.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
Please explain why the Italian military issue bullets and the military bullets manufactured by Western Cartridge Company (WCC) are .2662 in diameter and the Hornady bullets are .2675? Are you therefore saying that Western and the Italiand didn't know what they were doing?
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../09/ammo-1.gif
:rofl:No, just you.:madsmile:
Sorry, couln't help myself!:lol:
Just put a clothes pin on it the next time you can help yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmoore
The loads you say are good are the same loads that many people are blowing primers with.
Seems you have backed your butt into a trap. Hornady has never test their bullet with as many rifles as has been tested buy their customers.
The only loads that truly seem trouble free are the 760/H414 Loads and only with LRM primers.
I shoot numerous 6.5 Italian, Swedish, Mannlicher, Japanese and Winchester rifles and never have any problems with other bullets. Hornady does not know what they are doing with this bullet.
jmoore and ireload2,
This looks like a healthy debate. However,neither of you have answered the original poster, bvillars question. He's looking for milsurp 6.5 Carcano ammunition on chargers.
Reloading presents hazards to people that follow bad advice and if you want to debate reloading for the Carcano, you should start a new thread, keep it factual, provide your references and avoid attacking each other.
Too right, sorry! My fault, I knew exactly where this was going and encouraged it. Wasn't quite done either, but fun time's over.
Most of the Italian surplus w/clips I've seen is the 7.35 stuff. Original military 6.5 is extremely uncommon in these parts, but some can still be found that had soft point bullets installed in the sixties (mostly) by Interarms and placed back in the old boxes complete w/ strippers. Its all "collectible" priced now unless you just stumble into some.
Did this debate ever get sorted out? I finally found a 6.5 Carcano in the condition and price range I was looking for and want to reload my own rounds, but the more I research the more uncertain I am as to what setup/load data I should use. We have one person saying the load data in the Hornady manual is BS and another person saying it works fine for them. So what is it? I'm holding off buying dies and bullets and powder until I know what's best. Any clarification on this subject would be greatly appreciated. TIA
I've still had no troubles. Try contacting Hornady- it's their data- If they won't stand behind it, then neither should you. I must say that the rifles I've used all have excellent bores! If it's rough or "frosted", you might just stick to factory ammo. That way there's a legal leg to stand on if something lets go. Hornady's ammo isn't all that expensive and useds their bullets. Prvi Partisan is cheaper, but accuracy is not so good in my experience. Norma ammo is really expensive AND isn't worth having, even for the brass! Ugh.
If ANYONE made 0.266" bullets I'd try them. Don't know of any, so what can you do?
I mean....well, ummm- who has more to lose, we internet "gurus", or a company that caters to folk passionate about really oddball calibers?
Thank you for replying jmoore. So I take it you are using the .268 Hornady bullets without any problems, right? What dies are you using? I was told that the Lee Pacesetter dies are set up for .265 bullets, so does this mean the Lee dies will not work if I use the Hornady bullets? I tried calling Hornady yesterday to inquire about custom dies for the 6.5 Carcano, but they had the day off.
BTW, the bore, including the crown, on the M41 Carcano (Mfg. date is 1942) I bought is in excellent condition. The numbers are matching and the cleaning rod is there too. I was very happy to find it for $200. I am now searching for a good k98 and Moisin Nagant to complete my WW II rifle collection, all bolt action rifles except the M1.
The Lee dies produce acceptable ammunition for us. (That's not a royal "us", they're shared about.)
The Lee shell holder was poo, however. (Too big or sloppy fitting to hold the cases securely!) Using an RCBS, instead.
My "Oswald Special" is quite accurate, indeed! No problem doing 1 1/2 MOA five or six shot groups. Many run a little smaller. Pretty amazing, I think!
The little folding bayonet carbine is about the worst, IIRC. 6 MOA groups, but it's consistant and the zero doesn't wander. OK for troopies who probably weren't front line infantry.
I've wondered why no one does a dual diameter bullet for these, like the original 264 Winchester Magnum design. Small in the front that rides the top of the lands, and a larger portion at the rear which is groove filling. More expensive, sure! But no worse than other premium niche market bullets.
Link to a similar thread that may answer a few more questions:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=15002
I must not have added tags, that's been fixed!
Here's A link to an article that Badger had posted in another thread:
https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=265