Ross M1910 Pump Action conversion

I have bought this very unique conversion in Finland. While not necessarily collectible, I liked it mainly for the unique craftsmanship involved. It may not be correct in calling it a bullpup since the trigger still sits behind the magazine, but it for sure has been shortened the way it was possible, and parts of the action are now covered by the stock.

Whoever did the conversion, he was good in what he did, and every possible effort was taken to make it look great. The checkering is extremely nice cut, and the rod from the pump handle is even spring held at the bolt handle to make the repeating smoother.

Barrel is made by Sako, caliber reads as 6.3x57, yet need to find out what this really is (necked down German 8x57?).


Edit: re-uploaded new pictures 01.03.2024

This customization is amazing, and extreme. I 'm having difficulty imagining how a shooter would mount and fire this rifle, given such a short length of pull, and proximity of the trigger group. Regardless, this is definitely a find. I would love for you to post a picture of you mounting the rifle. Hope you have luck sourcing the ammunition.

I have photos of a MkII Ross converted to a pump in a similar way.

Unless this was built for a person with no neck, or fired from the standing position only, I conclude there is a section missing from the stock.

Perhaps built for a "running deer" type competition?

The scope mount is interesting: the extreme cantilever presumably intended to avoid contacting the barrel?

Fantastic piece unique to say the very least!

A lot of work went into that. Another thing to consider is it appears to be chambered in a rimless cartridge which also means they had to modify the magazine to work with rimless ammunition.

The screw and nut for trigger stop is for ?

Comparing the magazine with a normal M1910 magazine it indeed appears to have been modified. I however can't see much of a difference on the bolt head when comparing it with a normal .303 from the M1910.

Holding the rifle in standing position your cheek will anyway partially touch the original rear sight base, so therefore it fits. The scope rail has been moved forward anyway, so this would also not be a problem. Only my right hand feels too long to properly sit on the trigger. But since the cutout for the thumb is anyway too small for my thumb it is my feeling that this rifle was either made for someone of a very small size, a female or possibly even a child.

I might also note that the buttplate is missing. This one could had also added some overall length too.

Edit: re screw in the trigger guard: it avoids that the trigger resets too much forward. My best guess a primitive solution to shorten the trigger way.

Built for a specific person for a specific reason. Small person considering the ergonomics and calibre. Possibly disabled.

Calibre - Mauser used the 57 mm length cartridges just about for all calibres from 6 mm to 9 mm, so this is probably the 6 x 57 Mauser cartridge.

I guess they would not mark it 6.3 x 57 on the barrel shank if the caliber was 6 x 57 instead..

True. I would still think 6x57 based, might be a wildcat. Would be good to find out.

"...the unique craftsmanship..." I'll say. Really well done too. I'm guessing it was done for use out of a blind. Long eye relief scope with a very short butt stock would work well when sitting. Might have been for a wheel chair bound shooter/hunter.
There was a 6.5 x 57 Mauser. And a 6.3 X 53R R/K FINNISH. Be easier to convert/rebarrel one rimmed cartridge to another. Although there was a rimmed 6.5 x 57 too. Listed here under European Sporting Rifle. Warning: This site can keep you busy for hours. snicker.
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9.3x57 I would guess.

There is no need to guess since it clearly is marked and papered as 6.3 x 57. Thanks for the link, might indeed be a hybrid of different cartridges.

Whatever.

Anyone else notice that the sight bridge is a complete replacement somewhat different from the original? A very carefully machined one too.

6.3 is close to 6.35 which is metric .250"

How about a case based on the 7.92 x 57R, as used in a lot of single-shot arms, doubles and Drillings, necked down? After all, there were lots of variants on the rimless version.

However to work in a Ross-length magazine and to also be rimmed, could it not be another variant of the classic .25-.303 as used extensively in Australia and in different versions, in Canada? A "raw" .303 case is 56.44mm; so, close enough.

As a newly-joined member, I keep coming across these old threads that capture my interest. I can't help but ask for an update. Did you solve the ammo riddle? Have you fired this piece yet?
For my own part, I side with the general consensus already offered: The workmanship looks to be excellent, the form is of such unprepossessing ugliness, that it must have a great purpose, because necessity is the mother of invention - and only a mother could find this weapon attractive!

No I still have that rifle. If you want to solve it and want to go through the hassle of importing it to Canada, I'd be willing to sell it.

And I'd love to buy it. It's a Ross, it's an oddball, it exhibits excellent workmanship, and it offers a mystery to boot. This festering boil would be a great fit in my collection. The hassle of importing into Canada wouldn't put me off a bit - I love a challenge. What IS insurmountable is the restrictive system of firearm ownership in our country these days. Buying federally-sanctioned dope from provincially-run drug dealerships is easy. Buying a firearm borders on a criminal act. Our current permit system has morphed into a de-facto long-gun registry, and I refuse to allow mine to be registered, so I no longer acquire complete weapons. I accumulate parts only. Otherwise, I'd jump at the chance, trust me.

So the beast has resurfaced. She screams for a Schuetzen hook style butt plate for completion.

Attachment 103962Attachment 103963

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Originally Posted by NORTHOF60

a Schuetzen hook style butt plate

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I think that would complete it too. Looks right as the butt is square. I wonder if there's screw holes there?

6.3x57 would be .257 Roberts. 6.3mm is the metric designation for .25". The Roberts utilises the 57mm Mauser case, so 6.3x57mm = .257 Roberts

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Originally Posted by harry mac

6.3x57 would be .257 Roberts. 6.3mm is the metric designation for .25". The Roberts utilises the 57mm Mauser case, so 6.3x57mm = .257 Roberts

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Well done, that man!

Why did none of us pick up on this sooner? I was so fixated on the metric designation, I never thought to look at American cartridges by another name. (The fact that I didn't know the .257 Roberts was based on the Mauser case is down to my ignorance.)

The 6.5x57 Mauser cartridge is almost identical to the .257 Roberts and predates it somewhat. 6.5x57 Mauser would be a logical cartridge for use in Finland.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

The 6.5x57 Mauser cartridge is almost identical to the .257 Roberts and predates it somewhat. 6.5x57 Mauser would be a logical cartridge for use in Finland.

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You're absolutely right, and we all went down the metric road too. But why, then, would the maker clearly stamp the barrel 6.3mm? The rest of the work (other than the nut and bolt trigger stop) does not suggest someone who makes such glaring mistakes. Short of being able to talk to the original builder (please chime in if anyone knows who that might be), the only way to settle the question is a chamber cast. If my geographic situation were different, I would love to get my hands on this rifle just to delve further into it's story!

People have used many different terms for different ammo in the past. 8mm Mauser is called many different things for example. 8mm, 8x57mm, 7.92mm, 7.9mm, etc.

7.5 Swiss or 7.5 French both use .308 (.762) bullets. 7.62 Russian uses .311 (7.7) bullets. Lots of different reasons for different namings based off what your measuring, how your measuring, etc.

Although this rifle looks odd and it looks like it would be awkward to shoulder, isn't it basically made in, "bullpup" style?

"Bullpup" configuration normally requires the trigger group to be in front of the magazine.

I think the flat and unfinished butt fits with the earlier suggestion that there is a thick and perhaps elaborate buttplate assembly missing.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

The 6.5x57 Mauser cartridge is almost identical to the .257 Roberts and predates it somewhat. 6.5x57 Mauser would be a logical cartridge for use in Finland.

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I agree with vykkagur, Sako is not the company who would by mistake put a wrong caliber designation on a barrel. Plus the mystery on the caliber was solved, it is .257 Roberts. Why should we now assume a company with such a tradition would make a typo or on purpose write the wrong dimensions on a barrel?

It is quite amazing that this conversion attracts so many people over the years and so many share their thoughts and input. Makes me happy I'm not the only crazy one who has such a passion for items this weird! :) And yes, I agree, the buttplate must had been an adjustable one. But based on the small size of the thumb and hand holes it might not had been a big one, since the person very obviously was rather small.

Edit: now imagine yourself out in the woods going hunting with this rifle in hands, atop a red dot sight:madsmile:

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Originally Posted by Promo

... based on the small size of the thumb and hand holes it might not had been a big one, since the person very obviously was rather small.

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Perhaps it was just a guy with small hands. Not that that would be ME, of course. Just sayin;.... :dancingbanana:

A chamber cast would conclusively determine calibre, 6.5x57 Mauser or the later Roberts wildcat. Almost identical except minor dimensions. Both good cartridges.

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Originally Posted by Daan Kemp

A chamber cast would conclusively determine calibre, 6.5x57 Mauser or the later Roberts wildcat. Almost identical except minor dimensions. Both good cartridges.

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The dimensions engraved on the barrel by Sako are the dimensions of .257 Roberts. They did NOT engrave 6.5x57. I don't think anyone at Sako has great fun in marking a barrel 6.3x57 of which the caliber in fact is 6.5x57. So what for a chamber cast when the caliber has determined?

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Originally Posted by Promo

The dimensions engraved on the barrel by Sako are the dimensions of .257 Roberts. They did NOT engrave 6.5x57. I don't think anyone at Sako has great fun in marking a barrel 6.3x57 of which the caliber in fact is 6.5x57. So what for a chamber cast when the caliber has determined?

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Quite right, Promo.

If it answers finally, I obtained two boxes of .257 Roberts ammo. They chamber perfectly.

Looking at the original photos again it is surprising that they didn't line the slot in which the guides for the foregrip run. Or perhaps there are long brass or aluminum "male" guide rails under the grip which distribute the load well enough that nothing else is needed.

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Originally Posted by Promo

If it answers finally, I obtained two boxes of .257 Roberts ammo. They chamber perfectly.

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Are you planning a range session in the near future, Promo?

Curious to see how it handles and groups...

I wouldn't normally expect tack-driver performance from a rifle of this layout, but given the overall level of workmanship, and the fact that it's a quality barrel that seems to be floated. we could very well be pleasantly surprised.

I can only speculate that this rifle was designed for some sort of running game, hence the pump action. I wish we could hear from someone who had knowledge of it's origins. I'm dying to pick the brain of the man who dreamt this up.

I bought this rifle in an auction in Finland. Therefore there is no information on its origin available.

Since it lacks the buttplate and I don't really bother on making one for it plus I'd need to fit a scope to shoot it, I think I'll rather sell it off this way. Yet have to make up my mind on what I should ask for it.

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Originally Posted by Promo

I bought this rifle in an auction in Finland. Therefore there is no information on its origin available.

Since it lacks the buttplate and I don't really bother on making one for it plus I'd need to fit a scope to shoot it, I think I'll rather sell it off this way. Yet have to make up my mind on what I should ask for it.

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I can see where it would be hard to know what to put on it for a price; it's definitely a bit of an odd duck, that's for sure. The fact that it's so different might discourage the run-of-the-mill buyers, certainly, but the excellent quality of the components and workmanship, plus the sheer ingenuity of the whole design, would certainly appeal to real enthusiasts. As a diehard Ross fan I'd love to own it myself, but as you an I have already discussed, the political situation here in my country makes that impossible at this time. Your best bet to get a good sale might be another auction, perhaps one of the high-profile auction houses in the U.K., which would probably get better exposure to the American market. I'm supposing it would be easier to get it into the U.K. than trying to send it to an auction house in the U.S. Just don't forget to mention that it's .257 Roberts!

I'm not in a hurry with that. Some day someone will come along who desperately needs an oddball like this.

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Originally Posted by Promo

I'm not in a hurry with that. Some day someone will come along who desperately needs an oddball like this.

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Good to know. If things ever change over here, I'll be that oddball... er, someone. At least it's in good hands in the meantime.

Took new pictures of this rifle and figured while at it may add them to this thread again since the original ones are anyway lost.


PS: When I just pulled it for taking the pictures I thought of what scope may have been used on this rail. When putting it back to storage I thought maybe the Finns used a Model 1931 top mounted scope ("PE Scope"). Thought worth a try ... yep. Fits that rail. Though I suppose it may had been altered at the rear to be pushed all the way towards the front where a stopping block is located.

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Originally Posted by Promo

Took new pictures of this rifle and figured while at it may add them to this thread again since the original ones are anyway lost.

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By all means, that way you can reorder them or post them collective...would love to see.

In the meantime, how about some of the old ones? ;)

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Originally Posted by browningautorifle

By all means, that way you can reorder them or post them collective...would love to see.

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I added new pictures to the starting post, for those that are missing. Just check there.

So far the Ross has been presented as a bolt action rifle, a pump action rifle, an autoloader, and a machine gun. All we're missing is a lever action.