Omark Model 44 Sniper Rifle

For lack of a better fitting subforum I thought period-wise it would correspond the best with the PH rifles ..


Having picked up yesterday a by then to me unknown single shot bolt action rifle on occasion I had wondered if there is more to learn on these rifles. The particular rifle has scope bases, as well as the lack of a open rear sight and absolutely no holes for a front sight indicate it was always and only used with a scope, which unfortunately seems to be gone.


I read these were extensively trialed by the Australian Army, but were never introduced for being single shot only. Does anyone know with which scope (and scope mount) they were tested?


The particular rifle originates from Malaysia. Note it has some Malaysian inscribed tags attached to it too. The one added to the trigger guard (according to Google Translator) reads as "Exhibit 1" over "Sniper Rifle Omark 7.62mm" over "No SDW213") over "Repeat Date (?)" over "11th December 2017". The sticker attached to the stock is similar and translated as "Sniper Rifle Omark 7.62mm serial number SDW213".


Does anyone know if Malaysia officially used these as sniper rifles? Or any other information possibly available on it? Can someone tell me, based on the serial, approx. when it was made?



PS: the red paint was used to mark rifles to be sold/unserviceable/withdrawn from service - at least I've been told that way. Yes, I know, still need to remove it.

Just check that it has the larger pin installed in the floating bolt head this was a mandatory thing to be done if you wanted to shoot the rifles in competitions or on rifle ranges in Australia.
The reason being a competition shooter years ago allot of years I may add the small bolthead pin failed for what ever reason allowing the bolt body to exit the action and hitting the shooter on the Rt side of his face with resultant non fatal devastating injuries.
I've owned and competed with an Omark in 7.62mm (Rubber gun we call that calibre) mine had a Black mountain barrel, they are still accurate but find it hard to compete with the likes of Barnard actions
TBonesmith in Sydney Aus may know the dimensions of the larger pin.

Re: Bolt Head Pin in M44's.
Just checked the five (!) I have on the wall, and the pin od's are 5.5 and 7 mm.
Latest I have is an early '80's 'D' model, bought new, SDX2nn, and it came standard with the large pin, and interestingly did not have a 'safety' fitted, by that time it was 'bolts out'.

(I have a pic of said pin, can't quite see how to add attachment).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

For lack of a better fitting subforum I thought period-wise it would correspond the best with the PH rifles ..


Having picked up yesterday a by then to me unknown single shot bolt action rifle on occasion I had wondered if there is more to learn on these rifles. The particular rifle has scope bases, as well as the lack of a open rear sight and absolutely no holes for a front sight indicate it was always and only used with a scope, which unfortunately seems to be gone.


I read these were extensively trialed by the Australian Army, but were never introduced for being single shot only. Does anyone know with which scope (and scope mount) they were tested?


The particular rifle originates from Malaysia. Note it has some Malaysian inscribed tags attached to it too. The one added to the trigger guard (according to Google Translator) reads as "Exhibit 1" over "Sniper Rifle Omark 7.62mm" over "No SDW213") over "Repeat Date (?)" over "11th December 2017". The sticker attached to the stock is similar and translated as "Sniper Rifle Omark 7.62mm serial number SDW213".


Does anyone know if Malaysia officially used these as sniper rifles? Or any other information possibly available on it? Can someone tell me, based on the serial, approx. when it was made?



PS: the red paint was used to mark rifles to be sold/unserviceable/withdrawn from service - at least I've been told that way. Yes, I know, still need to remove it.

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I’ve never seen any concrete evidence that 44s were trialed or used apart from use by army and other services rifle team members. I’m sure some of the marksman amongst them would have tried fitting scopes etc but nothing was ever official to the best of my knowledge.

I shot with mine in the late '70's they never had a safety catch installed it was as you say bolts out before you left the mound, nowdays we have to have the check scorer clear the action with the bolt out then put the breech flag in before leaving the mound the flag having to stay in at all times.

An interesting story from my early days of shooting at the Harvey Rifle range which believe it or not had the High school on one side of us and on the right hand side we had the town cemetery and at times because there were bush tracks behind the stop butts had to stop firing due to trail bike riders roaring around behind the butts!!
Anyway the mounds needed mowing and we had a nice chap who was 95% deaf that shot there came in to mow them Rob Holthouse a local chap our club was small only about 10-15 active shooters and our range was 300 yds - 700 yds any further and we would have been on the highway.
Anyway Rob was happily mowing one of the mounds when unknown to him a loose round had been left there hidden in the long grass well the mowers blade hit fair on the primer setting the round off which blew a sizable chunk out the side of the mower and scared the living heck out of Rob, who never mowed the mounds again.
I think we were paying 18 cents a round then as the army supplied our ammunition to us in those days, not now just a projectile costs around a $1 now!

Information regarding post #4 - Omark Model 44 - Wikipedia para - 5

Quote ~ The Omark Model 44 was tested as a sniper rifle by the Australian Defence Force but not adopted, as it is single shot only and the design could not easily be changed to a repeater

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Originally Posted by Omark

I’ve never seen any concrete evidence that 44s were trialed or used apart from use by army and other services rifle team members. I’m sure some of the marksman amongst them would have tried fitting scopes etc but nothing was ever official to the best of my knowledge.

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Do you know if the Australian Army trialed these rifles with scopes? If yes, do you know which one?

Not sure if Peter Laidler would be able to answer that one or have knowledge of the facts, as he was over in Aus for a time.

I stripped that red paint from the stock and took better pictures. Find them attached. And yes, of course I preserved the sticker that was attached to the stock.


The bolt matches the serial of the rifle (with full letter prefix on the underside of the handle), the stock on the inside is also serialized to match the action (without letters). Note there is no provision for a front sight on the barrel. Also the holes on the receiver for the rear sight are covered by wood - it never had open sights on it. Edit: forgot to mention, the middle swivel is Parker Hale stamped with a part number on it additionally.



https://www.milsurps.com/attachment....61&cid=1&stc=1
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Georg

If you've not seen it already here's a link to the AWM citation in that Wiki article quoted above (it's original link is dead). There are a couple of pictures which might be of interest. The rear PH target sight looks like it fixes above that rear scope mount and uses the top screw hole in the receiver. Interesting to see how a foresight is mounted too.

I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out they used a ZF69 scope for that trial. Same as the PH M82.

Omark (Sportco) M44 Target Rifle | Australian War Memorial -

After some trying I finally figured that (at least in my Browser) I need to click the image and drag it to the left to see the second picture. Interesting, this would then mean the same rear sight would work on my rifle, despite my rifle does not have the stock cut lower to clear the two holes in front of the bolt release, as done to the AWM rifle. Mine does not have a compartment to the pistol grip. Based on these pictures I cannot make out how the front sight was mounted to this rifle.


Speaking today on a phone with a friend of mine and knowing (based on a GB thread) the serial of my rifle dates it to 1986 I said to him maybe the original scope on it was actually a Kahles ZF69 (but then thought the bases might be a bit too high for this). Now you make me want to try and find out if Parker-Hale rings would actually fit these bases. Only where to get them ..

Georg, to try a 26mm tube diameter Kahles ZF69 you'll need either PH RALS4 or RAHS4 scope rings.The 'L' means low and 'H' means high. I think you would be best to try the low rings with those scope mounts. I may have a spare set of RALS4 somewhere if you've got access to a Kahles scope?

Front sight base was a band.
I believe I have one of the adapters that was attached to the receiver enabling a rear sight to be mounted. I'll check.

Lithy could shed some light on this.......

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

Do you know if the Australian Army trialed these rifles with scopes? If yes, do you know which one?

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I know there has been reference to some of the armourers playing around with Kahles scopes

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Originally Posted by martins8589

Lithy could shed some light on this.......

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Not knowing who you are referring, would you mind making him aware of this thread/asking him on this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Omark

I know there has been reference to some of the armourers playing around with Kahles scopes

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This sounds interesting and would correspond with what desperatedan posted above. Can you find out more on this?

Apologies for missing this thread.

There are a couple of threads here with info on the M44 Omarks. Try the search box on the upper RH side of the page and you will get results like this; https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=36654&page=6

I had not found that thread earlier, thanks for posting the link to it. What was very interesting was post #11:

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Originally Posted by trooper554877

I have photographic proof that they where issued to VDC units in Victoria, maybe some infantry units in New guinea and definitely the RAAF in Malaya.

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Too bad this member is gone and especially that all old pictures are gone. Since you participated in this thread earlier, do you remember if there were any pictures of a rifle with scope being posted? Or how to reach out to this user (out of the forum)?

Have a browse through this thread.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=34856

Sorry for being brief but time is short.

If you have any direct questions, please ask but I won't have time until the weekend to give detailed answers.

Thank you. I have the following direct questions:
- Do you have any additional information on Malaysian used Omark Model 44 sniper rifles? And/or possibly the pictures user "trooper554877" had suggested that exist of these

- Do you recognize the scope bases on my rifle, meaning now by who made and used with which rings/scopes?

I will start my reply by stating the Omark was never an officially adopted rifle within the Australian Defence Force. They were used by service personnel in fullbore competitions and briefly considered as a locally sourced replacement for the No1 Mk3 HT.

The threads from ten years ago were prompted by a couple of fellows looking to have them included in a list of approved service arms for service rifle competitions here in Oz. Their enthusiasm to reach their goal led to a few exaggerated claims.

With regard to your rifle, the two triangular sling swivels and lack of safety on your rifle indicate to me it is an ex fullbore rifle. The foresight would have been clamped to the barrel and a Central rear sight would have been attached to a sight plate screwed onto the LH rear side of the action.

Butterworth Air Base in Malaysia was "owned" by the RAAF from around 1957 until 1989 when it was handed to the RMAF. The Oz Army has had a Rifle Company stationed at Butterworth since 1970. At it's peak in the early '70s Butterworth was "home" to around 5000 Australian service personnel and their families. With so many Aussies stationed there, it is more than likely there were fullbore rifle competitions carried out on weekends. Such recreational pursuits were actively encouraged in those days.

Sniping was a lost art in the Oz Army until the mid to late '70s. Aside from outdated HTs in stores, there were no sniper rifles in the system and no sniper training carried out.

Now, firmly attaching my speculation hat on, the OC of the defence Coy. might have thought there was a need for a designated marksman's rifle or three and had your rifle modified by attaching the mounts and a scope to fulfil the role.

To my eye, the mounts on your rifle look to be European. Maybe someone else here will recognise them and suggest the correct scope.

In summary, despite what's written on the tag, it's not a sniper rifle.

Lithy, thank you for your reply. I clearly did NOT intend to claim my rifle being an AUSTRALIAN sniper rifle. However, knowing on the origin of my rifle and personally pulling it from a crate of firearms three days after they arrived at a wholeseller which all came from Malaysia (among dozens of other crates) I do not question nor doubt the tag attached to the rifle. The Malaysian Army clearly named it a sniper rifle. And if you read my starting post, I specifically asked if anyone knew of the Omark being used as a Malaysian Army sniper rifle.


Reading online that the Australian Army TRIALED this rifle I had wondered on a potential connection between the Australian Army and the Malaysian Army. Your reply actually supported this theory I had formed by a lot of details on what you called the Butterworth Air Base. Do you know if the items at Butterworth were left behind for the Malaysian Army? I wonder if actually this way one or more of the (what you call) fullbore competition rifles were left behind and the Malaysian Army re-used (issued?) it as a sniper rifle. Therefore I want to clearly repeat, it surely isn't an Australian sniper rifle, but for the Malaysian Army it was used or designated as sniper rifle.



This theory by the way would be supported that from the actual crate where I pulled it mainly consisted of a handful Enfield No. 9 rifles, as well as probably a dozen (or more) No. 4 rifles that were converted to .22 caliber and all ALFRED PARKER stamped, a few BSA Martini International Mk.II rifles, Enfield Skeleton rifles, etc.


Do you possibly have the pictures that (former?) user trooper554877 mentioned here:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by trooper554877

I have photographic proof that they where issued to VDC units in Victoria, maybe some infantry units in New guinea and definitely the RAAF in Malaya.

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To me this sounds very much like what he talks about would have good chances to be what I currently have at home, left behind/handed over from Australia to Malaysia, who designated it a sniper rifle, and now years later selling it off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Promo

Do you possibly have the pictures that (former?) user trooper554877 mentioned here:

Originally Posted by trooper554877
I have photographic proof that they where issued to VDC units in Victoria, maybe some infantry units in New guinea and definitely the RAAF in Malaya.
To me this sounds very much like what he talks about would have good chances to be what I currently have at home, left behind/handed over from Australia to Malaysia, who designated it a sniper rifle, and now years later selling it off.

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Mate, please re read the second paragraph in post #20.

Ned is no longer here, so I do not wish to elaborate.

Exactly the reason that he is no longer here was why I had asked you if you have or know or have seen the claimed picture of an Omark Model 44 rifle in the hands of RAAF in Malaya. You had participated in the thread back then.


I have understood your position regarding calling it a "sniper rifle" and I am very certain regarding Australia you are correct. This though was never what I was questioning - I had particularily hoped to find out more how one of these rifles ended up in the hands of the Malaysian Army and which scope this particular rifle might had carried.


Assuming this picture indeed exists there is a chance it depicts a rifle with scope, and by having this picture it could be possible to determine which scope this is. Therefore I'd kindly ask you to answer the following questions, best even just with yes or no:


1. Do you remember if in this thread back then there was a picture posted showing an Omark Model 44 in Malaya?
2. Have you ever seen a picture of an Omark Model 44 in Malaya?
3. If yes to either of the questions, do you happen to have any of these pictures somewhere?


Thank you!

Gotta say this is getting monotonous.
As far as Omarks in Malaysian hands, yes I have seen them in use, both in Malaysia and here in OZ.
The Malaysians are no different from any other Dominion Country, they participate in matches in fullbore competition at home and abroad.
Back in the eighties they were still using Omarks, as were a fair few Australians, by 2000 they had a smattering of RPA's and now they predominately use Barnards.
The Commonwealth Games have Malaysian competitors, I have competed alongside them in Dominion matches here in Oz, an occaisional one fronts up at the Queens comps. held in each state......yeah, but as to snipers, no.
As we modded our Omarks with scopes to dabble in F class, so I am sure did the Malaysians, so to find a rifle set up is no big deal.
Licencing is very strictly controlled over there, usually only service personnel and police and the odd civilian are allowed licences, to find an Omark from a Military establishment for sale should not be a surprise.

muffett.2008, thank you for confirming you have seen Omark rifles in the hand of Malaysians. Can you remember if you have seen either of their rifles with a scope? Or do you possibly know someone from Malaysia to ask on this? I would want to find out which scope was used on my rifle.


Thank you!

Can't help with the scope, it could have been anything, When someone first starts dabbleing in F Class it's usually with a 20+ power scope.

Some of us Muffett go OTT here's a pic of my March 8 x 80 on top of my F class 6.5 x 284 at our range looks like we were at 6 or 700m, we don't flag every wind pole but definitely 100 & 300 as there is a huge gap in the pines there lost during a storm.

Different idea then muffett.2008, do you possibly still have contact to someone from Malaysia from back then? Maybe he can help me.

You are talking 30 odd years ago, so no.

I know this thread is on a different road but I just wanted to contribute by discussing the accuracy of these old timer rifles. I purchased mine 12 months ago and it had the original furniture, no sights so I had to drill and tap for scope, upgrade the bolt head pin and fitted a custom stock. I fitted a high power scope and to sight it in I used the attached factory ammo. Very surprising result? We have a ammo component/s shortage in OZ at the moment so I'm waiting on a shipment of the 155 Bergers to try.