Winchester M12 trench gun questions

I just bought a Winchester M12 trench gun, serial # 1006XXX. I think that makes it a 1945/6. The stock has GHD and a small ordinance wheel. The receiver is US marked with an ordinance bomb. The barrel is 20in cyl bore with an ordinance bomb. The bad news is Bubba was the previous owner. He cut down the bayo/heat shield to just a small piece to support the magazine tube and brazed it to the barrel, threaded the barrel and installed a screw on choke, filled in the stock swivel slot, and installed a big ol’ butt pad. The good news is I paid $125 for it. I have a cheap piece of Chinese junk heat shield I installed for the short term while I look for an original. Someone told me a Win 1200 heat shield might be easer to find. Would a Win 1200 shield fit? As you can see in the picture, the bayo lug hides Bubba's handy work. The gun has lost quite a bit of its blue. I was thinking about a park job since the modifications have destroyed its collector value. Any thoughts on that. If I do decide to have it parked, I might consider a repro heat shield. Are there any quality ones available? One last question, I need a butt plate. Is it the standard plastic one like the commercial guns or something else?

Heat Shield And Various Other M12 Trench Parts On Gun Broker Right Now. Also Shows The Proper Hard Rubber Butt Plate.

I hope you have luck getting the parts suggested to sort this one out. After it's assembled you have the hard task of soul searching to dedcide what the finishing touch is. If you read up on Canfield's book for instance or some of the others available you will have a better handle on what finish you want. We could suggest things or insist you do this or that, but in the end when you look at it and it feels right, you're done.

...a real , complete , all there type of gun. It had been used , carried a lot. The markings around the reciever/bbl interface had almost been rubbed off from someones hand. It had been completely gone through action wise and reblued. The lost markings were not restored. I did not see it before the restoration. I paid $1000 for it , and I love it. I can take it out and use it to my heart's content and not worry about it. I'd say restore it back to close to new and enjoy. My .02.
Chris

check gun parts corp i think they have original barrels and repro parts a mod 97 sheild will fit

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Originally Posted by danb

...a mod 97 sheild will fit

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So the heat shields from the Model 97 and Model 12 trench guns are interchangable?

Try Sarco, Inc., Firearms, Firearms Parts and Accessories, go to the e-store and check for one under shotgun parts. Joe Poyer's book on the 97 & 12 says they are the same. part no. W97058.It may show unavailable but I just called and they took the order. PLEASE CONFIRM THEY ARE THE SAME.

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Originally Posted by CapnJohn

Try Sarco, Inc., Firearms, Firearms Parts and Accessories, go to the e-store and check for one under shotgun parts. Joe Poyer's book on the 97 & 12 says they are the same. part no. W97058.It may show unavailable but I just called and they took the order. PLEASE CONFIRM THEY ARE THE SAME.

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That's good to hear.

Thanks for responding!

I assume most if not all where in the 20inch length, but can someone tell me what type of choke they had? Mod, full etc.? Reason I ask is, I can not find a barrel for a trench in stock, but was able to find a 21inch barrel, while not orginal can a smith knock down an inch and at least I have a passable replacement?

Forgive me if this is a stupid question my other M12 was made somewhere between 1922 and 23 best as I can tell via the Serial # and the length of barrel is much longer.

Troy

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sorry meant to ask in new thread not hijack the orginal post

The bbls are marked CYL and are cylinder bore. You have to contend with that mark as well as cutting a bbl down. You're going to chase your tail on this if you don't wait for the correct parts. It will always be a little out of whack and it'll bother you.

Riot and "sporting" bbls are tapered , trench bbls are not. Heatshield will not fit properly unless a sleeve is fitted to the bbl.
Chris

Bruce Canfield's book gives the serial numbers of WWII M12 Military shotguns as #939649-1035241.
Some gun sites give the wrong date info on the serial numbers but according to Canfield's numbers yours would be made probably in the early 1940-s and not post war, Ray

I found a heat shield for a Winchester 1200. They are different from a model 12. I had to ream the muzzle end of the shield so the barrel would slide thru. I put on a hard rubber butt plate and removed the wood filler and installed the proper butt swivel. I decided not to refinish it, leaving it with its 40% blue.

Now you have a parts gun...but I imagine it works just fine.

No , he took a heat shield that was a collectable item in it's own right , destroyed it , to produce something else that never was that now has no collector value.
Sad. His to do with as he will , but sad to me.
Chris

All that done with just two posts...

All that done with just two posts...

Is it really that bad...
I started with a gun that had no collector value.
As far as the collector value of the heat shield, the guy I bought it from said these were produced in large numbers as replacement parts. My thought was, there are far more heat shields than trench guns needing heat shields, which would mean little demand. Also, the price I paid for it was not any more than what those cheaper reproductions go for. So how bad did I screw up. Are these things rarer than what I believe them to be? Sometimes you have to learn the hard way.

I must admit , I overlooked the bit about it being a 1200 heatshield . I do not get into the later guns and thought you had taken an old original and reamed it out. A few days later , I said to myself , wait a minute , 12s and 97s are the same , and a riot or sporting bbl would be smaller , not larger . Soooo...I screwed up , my comments may not apply. If they don't apply , I apologize.
I do not know the value or availabillity of 1200 shields . If they are rare and valuable , yes , you blew it. If not , then , no , you didn't.
Looking back at this in 20 years or so , though , you may slap yourself for this .
Chris

The model 1200 heat shield has a lip at the end to stop the barrel from protruding through. I destroyed it by removing about a sixteenth of an inch of the inside of that lip to allow my damaged barrel to come through flush.
In twenty years I hope I will not be like that bitter bunch that sporterized all of those service rifles years ago and now are critical of others for doing far less. But, time will tell.

And I did all of this with just four posts...

Model 12's and 97's prior to 1942 had 6 row 29 hole heat shields. Guns after 1942 generally had 4 row 19 hole shields. Either would be correct. The 1200 heat shield would not.

Unfortunately, you are going to pay exponentially more for the heat shield than you did for the gun. Originals can run near (and over sometimes) the $1,000 mark. Go to eBay and type in "trench gun". There's a fella out of Georgia who makes repros that are pretty good. They ship in the white (no finish) so you can either blue it or parkerize it you like. He sells them (either configuration you like) for $175. Probably the best option for you.

As for the barrel, I'd hold off until you find a real one. Which I believe there is also one of on eBay right now. Good luck.

There's

All WW2 Model 12 trench guns were made with the later type heat shield (4 rows of holes, not 6 rows).

While that's true, it would not have been uncommon to find the the older style on a Model 12. When they went in for any kind of repairs the armorers didn't care which heat shield was correct. Just that it fit. And it did. I think that if absolute factory correctness is what you're going for, obviously get the later heat shield. If you come across an older one at a good price, don't lose sleep about putting it on your Model 12. That's all I meant.

One speaks of how common the 1200 series handguard is, but not so around me. There are actually none around here to be had. Nor any others. Hence collectable. The martial marked guns too. Any damaged makes one less. It's virtually impossible to find correct trench or riot guns, maybe this is why. They're the only ones outside the hands of collectors.

That is certainly true. I think that part of the reason for this is because when they made their way back to the states they were generally picked up and used as hunting guns, which meant getting rid of the short cylinder bore barrel, or bought up by police and corrections departments, who applied their own markings detracting from the "original condition". In either case the heat shields were often discarded.

It also doesn't help that military shotguns were kind of a niche market for many, many years. It seems like, outside of that small market, as normal surplus guns became more expensive people turned to the less expensive guns to collect, like the shotgun. All of a sudden there was more reference material available and what was kind of the "Mosin-Nagant" of it's day emerged as one of the most sought after collectibles on the market.

While I have a handful of military shotguns in my collection I can honestly say that only a couple of them are truly "correct". Though my only complete matching numbers gun is Stevens 620 riot, it has been marked for use by Civil Defense. Some collectors turn there nose up at it but I personally think it adds to the story.

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Originally Posted by danb

check gun parts corp i think they have original barrels and repro parts a mod 97 sheild will fit

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East Taylor LLC in Statesboro, Ga. repo steel heat shields for $175. Stevens Trench Gun Bayonet Attachment

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Originally Posted by hitch1911

East Taylor LLC in Statesboro, Ga. repo steel heat shields for $175. Stevens Trench Gun Bayonet Attachment

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They have both types of heat shields, 4 row, 6 row, winchester, stevens

---------- Post added at 01:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by hitch1911

East Taylor LLC in Statesboro, Ga. repo steel heat shields for $175. Stevens Trench Gun Bayonet Attachment

---------- Post added at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------

They have both types of heat shields, 4 row, 6 row, winchester, stevens

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I have one on order now for a Win mod 1912

Be sure and check it for fit straight away. I ordered a Stevens heat shield from them and no matter what I did, it simply did not fit properly. Like the inside diameter was just a hair off. So much so that it was impossible to put the screws in.