Cast Bullets for Military surplus Rifles

I have been a gun collector for a long time. I never thought of collecting surplus rifles, until I found an article in G&A Surplus Magazine called Slingin' Lead, by Daniel C. Chamberlain. Cast bullets for surplus rifles. That got the ball rolling. I now have a Lee melting pot, Lyman 314299 mould, Lyman lube sizer, and a bunch of wheel weights. I now use moly lube to coat the bullets. The article shows how you can get into castin bullets at very low cost. I went a little over board. I now have 2 lee Enfields #4 & 2a, Russian 91/30, Russian 44, and SKS. I very,very, highly recommend this. It's cheap to do and you cannot believe the accuracy. And you will never wear the barrel's out. Now I am collecting surplus rifles. I will need another gun safe.

Sounds fun! Are they light loads? Gas checked? I don't know anything about using lead.

I have started with light loads, the Lyman 314299 mould is a gas checked mould. Its also a 200 grain speer point, so it is long. Lyman did good on this one. Works great for 303 British, and the 762x54r Russian. The lyman 311299 is also great for these and the 30 calibers like 30/06. I have also been looking at working up light loads for small game.

D´you use wheel weights? Why do so many people advise against using them? (I´m planning to start casting as soon as I get the moulds).

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Originally Posted by villiers

Why do so many people advise against using them?

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There are several reasons:

1) Wheelweights have a (usually) unknown composition. You have no idea what is really in them. Which means that you have no idea how hard the final bullet is going to be.
2) If there is, for instance, any zinc in the mix, then the filling of the mold will be poor.
3) There may be hard particles in the mix (from the road, brake discs, brake pads) that will wear or even scratch the barrel.
4) Specifically for your BP cartridges, Patrick: all you need is pure lead and tin. Any alloy with antimony is likely to be harder than you need in an original BPCR.

Which all adds up to: If you really care for your barrel and really want consistent performance, then it is a false saving to use what is in effect foundry scrap.

Just my 2 cents, of course!

:wave:
Patrick

How about air rifle pellets? (can get loads from the club).

Cast bullets can be used quite successfully in Military rifles. It is better to use a round nose design with a lot of bearing surface, rather than a Spitzer type of bullet.

As mentioned, wheel weights are not really good the way they are, and shouyld be alloyed with lead to give a softer mixture. Get a copy of Lyman's "Cast Bullet Handbook" and read up on lead bullets. Proper safety precautions should be followed to avoid burns and breathing in lead fumes, along with safety glasses.

Some bullte moulds are designed for gas checks. I prefer the Hornady crimp on type. If you keep your velocities under 2000 fps, then you should not get barrel leading provided a good lubricant is used.

During the 1960s, C.E. Harris of the NRA Staff did a lot of experimenting with cast bullets. For most Military rifles, he used what he called "The Load". This is 13.0 grains of Red Dot Shotgun Powder with an appropriate weight bullet. In the case of the .303 British, the heavier bullets above 150 grains work well. It can be used for 30-06, .308, 8mm Mauser, 7x57 Mauser and many other Military rifles.

There are also so many variables in shooting Cast Bullets that it makes the average reloader using store bought components look like they are in Grade One and just learning.

And then there are paper patched bullets, where your earn your Graduate Degree. (Yes, the Swiss in the late 1800s used paper patched bullets in the Schmidt-Rubin rifle.)
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Originally Posted by villiers

How about air rifle pellets? (can get loads from the club).

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That is an interesting idea. That would be using an alloy with some consistency. I suggest you ask Haendler & Natermannn about the typical hardness of airgun pellets.

:wave:
Patrick

I suppose it is true that you can never know the exact make-up of wheelweights. However, I have been using them for years and have had great results with them. Now, I don't shoot competitions, and I wouldn't with these bullets. But, for paper-punching at the local range I love them.

I get them free from my local tire shop in ten-gallon buckets (very hard to lift ten gallons of wheelweights!). I melt them in my pot and flux and stir really good. I scrape lots of trash out of the mix along with the clips. I then pour the mix into a muffin pan making nice little muffin-sized ingots. I then re-melt the ingots later when ready to make bullets. I drop bullets out of the mold into water. This hardens the alloy even more. I install gaschecks on the bullets and they shoot great. Alloy is too hard to expand (paper doesn't care), but easier on the barrel than a copper jacket.

This has worked great for me for many years. Also, do modern handgun loads the same way, including magnums. Others may have different results.

daveboy

Just a bit of clarification to help Patrick Villiers in particular:

I know that many people are happy to cast wheelwight material, and even harden it, and it max go well in their nitro-fuelled milsurps. But Patrick's latest reloading problem was with the Werder Carbine of around 1867. Such ancient BPCRs are metallurgically equivalent to the percussion muzzle-loaders they replaced, and have deep grooves intended for lead bullets. Jacketed bullets came much later, with nitrocellulose powders, when it was found that lead bullets caused bad fouling/leading at the previously impossible high muzzle velocities achieved with nitro powdes.

The metallurgy and groove depths of something like a Werder are thus not suitable for the much higher pressures generated by ramming a jacketed (or hard cast wheelweight) bullet of groove diameter down a barrel. The grooves are so deep that the gun has no chance of squeezing the metal down to bore diameter at acceptable pressure levels. Black powder rifles of that vintage should be fed with bullets having a Brinell hardness of no more than 15, unless you want to simulate proof loads with every shot.

So be careful guys! It's horses for courses, and there is no "One hardness fits all" solution.

:wave:
Patrick

Anyone interested in cast bullets owes it to themselves to join the Cast Boolits forum. I think you'll find that the vast majority of the members there are using wheel weights to cast bullets, with perfect satisfaction.

You have to realize that **anything** lighter than lead - zinc, steel, dirt, etc., floats to the top when the wheel weights are smelted. Once the dirt and scrap are skimmed off, there's no way for dirt and such to get into your barrel to cause any damage. In fact, the only problem associated with wheel weights that I'm aware of is that **lead** wheel weights are an endangered species!

Granted, the composition of the lead alloy from wheel weights can vary from lot to lot, so the thing to do is to smelt the largest amounts possible at a given time. A bit of tin (1-2%) added will greatly enhance the mold-filling qualities, and antimony can be added to increase hardness when necessary.

Cast Boolits - Dedicated To The World Of Cast Bullets!

I use wheel weights all the time. I normally add 1-2% tin to the weights to improve casting and to toughen up the metal just a bit. I've cast bullets for over 40 years and have had problems in only two firearms, both semis. I shoot HP rifles both military and civi with cast as well as ALL of my handguns. I do have one HOT .44 mag load that leads the barrel a bit, but I won't change it. The load shoots to 3 inches at 100 yards out of my Contender. With groups like that, I don't mind scrubbing a little lead.

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Originally Posted by Terry N.

**anything** lighter than lead - zinc, steel, dirt, etc., floats to the top when the wheel weights are smelted.

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Which is why I think the "fluxing" business belings in the alchemy category. None of the magic ingredients proposed for "fluxing" can really get down into the melt. And if you could somehow get a bit of wax or similar down some way by violent stirring, it would promptly vaporise in an extremely hazardous manner, spitting lead out of the melt.

BTW, perhaps someone with a sound background in metallurgy could tell us to what extent zinc is soluble in lead.

:wave:
Patrick

I shoot cast bullets in my Mosin M44,Yugoslavian M59/66A1 & Chinese /26\ SKS,the bores on all three rifle slugged out at .312" which was a plus. I just use plain old wheel weight for general purpose bullet,the wheel weights around here are a mix of Lead,Lead/Zinc,pure lead stick-on's or just plain old steel.

The steel just get thrown in the recycle bucket,the PB stick-on's are separated and melted down into muffin ingots for late use in make my handgun HP bullets. There are several ways to separate the Lead wheel weights for the Lead /Zinc ones.

The lead one are heavier and you can feel the difference between the two once you handle enough of them or you can simply just drop them on the concrete floor,the Lead make a thud sound while the Lead/Zinc weight make a sound similar to dropping a piece of steel. You can also test the weights with a pair of side cutters,the lead weights are soft and mark easily the Lead/Zinc weight are very hard and take a considerable amount of force to mark. They get thrown in the recycle bucket with the steel weights and sold as scrap along with anything I skim out of my ingot pot.

If your lazy and have a Lead thermometer,just keep your melt temperature around 650 degrees or slightly lower. Lead melts at 621.43 degrees F. Zinc melts at 787.15 degrees F. the Zinc weight along with the steel clips and other impurities will just float to the top and you can skim them off. There are many thing you can use for flux but I use dried out hardwood sawdust I get at a local cabinet shop Last Paragraph

Anyways my wheel weight alloy test out right at 12 BHN it's been pretty constant for the weight I get around here over the past several years,I basically use them as is,cut 50/50 with pure lead or water quench or heat treat depending on what I use them for. I use a little Tin once in awhile but not often.

The only bullet I'm currently shooting in the Mosin and SKS rifles is the Lee .312" gas check tumble lube 160 gr. RN,using my WW alloy it drops form the mold at 313.5" which is nice because my Mosin will only chamber a .314" bullet. Bullets get tumble lubed with a light coat of Alox/JPW lube gas checked in a Lee .314" sizer and tumble lubed once more,on occasion when I'm load for the Mosin and SKS and plant to shoot loads up around the 2K fps. range I'll ranch dip the lube grooves after applying the gas check and push it back through the Lee sizer gas check first,this fills the grooves nicely and leaves the bullets nose nice and clean. My powders of choice in the Mosin is either the Universal Load or The Load

In the SKS I use Alliant 2400 you can start with 11.0 grs. in the x 39 cartridge and increase the charge by .05 grs until you get the rifle to cycle reliably the Max load is 15.0 grs. My Chinese SKS will cycle every time with 12.5 grs. MV 1400+ fps. and drop the brass right at my feet,while the Yugo take the full charge of 15.0 grs. MV 1900+ fps. to cycle and throws the brass similar to steel case ammo.

Recent 5 shot group from my Mosin M44 range 50 yds.
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...scan0001-1.jpg

I've used wheelweights for bullets since 1958. If fluxed regularly with candle wax (don't do that indoors or without a good venting system) and spiced up with a little tin occasionally, you can have great bullets on the cheap. In the last ten years, I've cast over 800 lbs. of wheelweights. My favorite for the milsurps is a blunt, 180 grain bullet that comes from the mould at .3112. Most of the time all that is needed is a good dose of the Lee Liquid Alox. The .311's work in most anything roughly in the 30 or 303 caliber. I prefer a moderate charge of a fairly slow burning powder. Leading is not an issue and cheap shooting keeps me at the range.

Patrick brings up a very good point. Until nickel steel was used in gun barrels in the mid 1890s all barrels were still "soft". Even though the 8mm French Lebel was introduced as the first cartridge to use the new "smokeless" powder in 1886 barrel technology had not advanced. The 1894 Winchester was the first to use the new nickel steel barrels and barrel wear/erosion was the reason for the hot new 30/30 being delayed till 1895.

I have used wheel weights in cast bullets for many years with great success. There are some things you need to watch out for in using them. The newer stick on wheel weights for custom wheels contain zinc and will definitely screw up a pot of alloy so sort your wheel weights first. I make it a habit to soak scrounged WWs in water and a little dish washing detergent for a couple of days then pour them out and let them dry for a couple more. This gets rid of most of the road grime and salt (for those that live in colder clims) before it goes into the melting pot. I know lots of folks add a bar of 50/50 solder to every 10#s of WWs to improve the mixture for casting but for most handgun and larger caliber rifle slugs I have never found that to be completely necessary. Most commercial cast bullets today are really too hard but that is done for manufacturing purposes not accuracy considerations. Elmer always cautioned to not use a mixture harder than 16 to 1 lead to tin and i've always found that to be true. Most of the BPCR competitors use a 20 to 1 mixture in both BP and smokeless loads that approximate BP velocities. The majority of original BP era commercial and military cartridges I've examined fall into the 20 to 1 to 30 to 1 range as well. For muzzleloaders I still use "pure" lead as it seems to reduce complications with loading/accuracy/terminal ballistics for the old "smoke poles".

I have found through the years that the 2 most important things for cast bullets are a good base and consistent weight. Gas checks help in that department for rifle bullets and some handgun bullets (358156 comes to mind) though I have plain base versions that shoot nearly as well. I sort bullets by weight before loading and only use the best ones for competition and hunting and use the rest for "trigger time".

Just remembered where I put C.E. Harris's article and thought it might be useful to readers new to cast bullets and military rifles.


CAST BULLET LOADS FOR MILITARY RIFLES

Cast bullets can make shooting that surplus rifle easy and economical. And basic data works for many different guns.

BY C.E. Harris

Cast bullet loads usually give a more useful zero at practical field ranges with military battle sights than do full power loads. Nothing is more frustrating than a military rifle that shoots a foot high at 100 yards with surplus ammo when the sight is as low as it will go! Do not use inert fillers (Dacron or kapok) to take up excess empty space in the case. This was once common practice, but it raises chamber pressure and under certain conditions contributes to chamber ringing. If a particular load will not work well without a filler, the powder is not suitable for those conditions of loading. Four load classifications from Mattern (1932) cover all uses for the cast bullet military rifle. I worked up equivalent charges to obtain the desired velocity ranges with modern powders, which provide a sound basis for loading cast bullets in any post-1898 military rifle from 7mm to 8mm:

1. 125 grain plain based "small game/gallery" 900-1000 f.p.s., 5 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.

2. 150 grain plain based "100-yard target/small game", 1050-1250 f.p.s., 7 grains of Bullseye or equivalent.

3. 170-180 grain gas checked "200 yard target", 1500-1600 f.p.s., 16 grains of Hercules #2400 or equivalent.

4. 180-200 grain gas-checked "deer/600 yard target", 1750-1850 f.p.s., 26 grains of RL-7 or equivalent.

None of these loads are maximum when used in full-sized rifle cases such as the 30-40 Krag, .303 British, 7.65 Argentine, 7.7 Jap, 7.62x54R Russian , or 30-06. They can be used as basic load data in most modern military rifles of 7mm or larger, with a standard weight cast bullet for the caliber, such as 140-170 grains in the 7x57, 150-180 grains in the .30 calibers, and 150-190 grains in the 8mm. For bores smaller than 7mm, consult published data.




The Small Game or Gallery" Load

The 110-115 grain bullets intended for the .30 carbine and .32-20 Winchester, such as the Lyman #3118, #311008, #311359, or #311316 are not as accurate as heavier ones like the #311291. There isn't a readily available .30 caliber cast small game bullet of the proper 125-130 grain weight. LBT makes a 130 grain flat-nosed gas-check bullet for the .32 H&R Magnum which is ideal for this purpose. I recommend it highly, particularly if you own a .32 revolver.

The "100 Yard Target and Small Game" Load

I use Mattern's plain-based "100 yard target load" to use up my minor visual defect culls for offhand and rapid-fire 100 yard practice. I substitute my usual gas-checked bullets, but without the gas-check. I started doing this in 1963 with the Lyman #311291. Today I use the Lee .312-155-2R, or the similar tumble-lubed design TL.312-160-2R. Most of my rifle shooting is done with these two basic designs.

Bullets I intend for plain based loads are blunted using a flat-nosed top punch in my lubricator, providing a 1/8" flat which makes them more effective on small game and clearly distinguishes them from my heavier gas-checked loads. This makes more sense to me than casting different bullets.

Bullet preparation is easy. I visually inspect each run of bullets and throw those with gross defects into the scrap box for remelting. Bullets with minor visual defects are tumble-lubed in Lee Liquid Alox without sizing, and are used for plain base plinkers. Bullets which are visually perfect are weighed and sorted into groups of +/- 0.5 grain for use in 200 yard matches. Gas checks are pressed onto bullet bases by hand prior to running into the lubricator-sizer. For gas-check bullets loaded without the gas- checks, for cases like the .303 British, 7.62 NATO, 7.62x54R Russian and 30-06, I use 6-7 grains of almost any fast burning powder. These include, but are not limited to Bullseye, WW231, SR-7625, Green Dot, Red Dot or 700-X. I have also had fine results with 8 to 9 grains of medium rate burning pistol or shotgun powders, such as Unique, PB, Herco, or SR-4756 in any case of .303 British or larger.

In the 7.62x39 case, use no more than 4 grains of the fast burning powders mentioned or 5 grains of the shotgun powders. Theses make accurate 50 yard small game loads which let you operate the action manually and save your precious cases. These plinkers are more accurate than you can hold.

Repeated loading of rimless cases with very mild loads results in the primer blast shoving the shoulder back, unless flash holes are enlarged with a No. 39 drill bit to 0.099" diameter. Cases which are so modified must never be used with full powered loads! Always identify cases which are so modified by filing a deep groove across the rim and labeling them clearly to prevent their inadvertent use. For this reason on I prefer to do my plain based practice shooting in rimmed cases like the 30-30, 30-40 Krag, 303 British and 7.62x54R which maintain positive headspace on the rim and are not subject to this limitation.

The Harris "Subsonic Target" Compromise

Mattern liked a velocity of around 1250 f.p.s. for his 100 yard target load because this was common with the lead bullet .32-40 target rifles of his era. I have found grouping is best with non gas- checked bullets in military rifles at lower velocities approaching match grade .22 long rifle ammunition. I use my "Subsonic Target" load at around 1050-1100 f.p.s. to replace both Mattern's "small game" and "100 yard target" loads, though I have lumped it with the latter since it really serves the same purpose. It's report is only a modest "pop" rather than a "crack".

If elongated bullet holes and enlarged groups indicate marginal bullet stability, increase the charge no more than a full grain from the minimum recommended, if needed to get consistent accuracy. If this doesn't work, try a bullet which is more blunt and short for its weight because it will be more easily stabilized. If this doesn't do the trick, you must change to a gas-checked bullet and a heavier load.

The Workhorse Load - Mattern's "200 yard Target"

My favorite load is the most accurate. Mattern's so-called "200 yard target load." I expect 10 shot groups at 200 yards, firing prone rapid with sling to average 4-5". I shoot high Sharpshooter, low Expert scores across the course with an issue 03A3 or M1917, shooting in a cloth coat, using may cast bullet loads. The power of this load approximates the 32-40, inadequate for deer by today's standards. Mattern's "200 yard target load" is easy to assemble. Because it is a mild load, soft scrap alloys usually give better accuracy than harder ones, such as linotype. Local military collector-shooters have standardized on 16 grains of #2400 as the "universal" prescription. It gives around 1500 f.p.s. with a 150-180 grain cast bullet in almost any military caliber. We use 16 grains of #2400 as our reference standard, just as high power competitors use 168 Sierra Match Kings and 4895.

The only common military rifle cartridge in which 16 grains of #2400 provides a maximum load, and which must not be exceeded, is in the tiny 7.63x39mm case. Most SKS rifles will function reliably with charges of #2400 as light as 14 grains with the Lee 312-155-2R at around 1500 f.p.s. I designed this bullet especially for the 7.62x39, but it works very well as a light bullet in any .30 or .303 caliber rifle.

Sixteen Grains of #2400 is the Universal Load

The same 16 grain charge of #2400 is universal for all calibers as a starting load. It is mild and accurate in any larger military case from a 30-40 Krag or .303 British up through a 30-06 or 7.9x57, with standard weight bullets of suitable diameter for the caliber. This is my recommendation for anybody trying cast bullets loads for the first time in a military rifle without prior load development. I say this because #2400 is not "position sensitive", requires no fiber fillers to ensure uniform ignition, and actually groups better when you stripper-clip load the rifle and bang them off, rather than tipping the muzzle up to position the powder charge.

Similar ballistics can be obtained with other powders in any case from 7.62x39 to 30-06 size. If you don't have Hercules #2400, you can freely substitute 17 grains of IMR or H4227, 18 grains of 4198, 21 grains of Reloder 7, 24 grains of IMR 3031, or 25.5 grains of 4895 for comparable results.

However, these other powders may give some vertical stringing in cases larger than the 7.62x39 unless the charge is positioned against the primer by tipping the muzzle up before firing. Hercules #2400 does not require this precaution. Don't ask me why. Hercules #2400 usually gives tight clusters only within a narrow range of charge weights within a grain or so, and the "universal" 16 grain load is almost always the best. Believe me, we have spent a lot of time trying to improve on this, and you can take our word for it.

The beauty of the "200 yard target load" at about 1500 f.p.s. is that it can be assembled from bullets cast from the cheapest, inexpensive scrap alloy, and fired all day without having to clean the bore. It always works. Leading is never a problem. Once a uniform bore condition is established, the rifle behaves like a .22 match rifle, perhaps needing a warming shot or two if it has cooled, but otherwise being remarkably consistent.

The only thing I do after a day's shooting with this load is to swab the bore with a couple of wet patches of GI bore cleaner or Hoppe's, and let it soak until the next match. I then follow with three dry patches prior to firing. It takes only about three foulers to get the 03A3 to settle into tight little clusters again.

"Deer and Long Range Target Load"

Mattern's "deer and 600 yard target load" can be assembled in cases of 30-40 Krag capacity or larger up to 30-06 using 18-21 grains of #2400 or 4227, 22-25 grains of 4198, 25-28 grains of RL-7 or 27-30 grains of 4895, which give from 1700-1800 f.p.s., depending on the case size. These charges must not be used in cases smaller than the 303 British without cross checking against published data! The minimum charge should always be used initially, and the charge adjusted within the specified range only as necessary to get best grouping.

Popular folklore suggests a barrel must be near perfect for good results with cast bullets, but this is mostly bunk, though you may have to be persistent.

I have a rusty-bored Finnish M28/30 which I have shot extensively, in making direct comparisons with the same batches of loads on the same day with a mint M28 and there was no difference. The secret in getting a worn bore to shoot acceptably is to remove all prior fouling and corrosion. Then you must continue to clean the bore "thoroughly and often" until it maintains a consistent bore condition over the long term. You must also keep cast bullet loads under 1800 f.p.s. for hunting and under 1600 f.p.s. for target work.

A cleaned and restored bore will usually give good accuracy with cast bullet loads if the bullet fits the chamber throat properly, is well lubricated and the velocities are kept below 1800 f.p.s.

The distinction between throat diameter and groove diameter in determining proper bullet size is important. If you are unable to determine throat diameter from a chamber cast, a rule of thumb is to size bullets .002" over groove diameter, such as .310" for a 30-06, .312" for a 7.63x54R and .314" for a .303 British.

"Oversized 30's", like the .303 British, 7.7 Jap, 7.65 Argentine, and 7.62x39 Russian frequently give poor accuracy with .30 caliber cast bullets designed for U.S. barrels having .300 bore and .308 groove dimensions. This is because the part of the bullet ahead of the driving bands receives no guidance from the lands in barrel s of larger bore diameter. The quick rule of thumb to checking proper fit of the forepart is to insert the bullet, nose first, into the muzzle. If it enters clear up to the front driving band without being noticeably engraved, accuracy will seldom be satisfactory.

The forepart is not too large if loaded rounds can be chambered with only slight resistance, the bullet does not telescope back into the case, or stick in the throat when extracted without firing. A properly fitting cast bullet should engrave the forepart positively with the lands, and be no more than .001" under chamber throat diameter on the driving bands. Cast bullets with a tapered forepart at least .002" over bore diameter give the best results.

Many pre-WWII Russian rifles of US make, and later Finnish reworks, particularly those with Swiss barrels by the firm SIG, have very snug chamber necks and cannot be used with bullets over .311" diameter unless case necks are reamed or outside turned to .011" wall thickness to provide safe clearance.

Bullets with a large forepart, like the Lee 312-155-2R or Lyman #314299 work best with the 7.62x54R because the forcing cones are large and gradual. Standard .30 caliber gas-checks are correct.

Finnish 7.62x54R, Russian 7.62x39 and 7.65 Argentine barrels are smaller than Russian 7.62x54R, Chinese 7.62x39, Jap 7.7 or .303 British barrels, and usually have standard .300" bore diameter. (Finnish barrels occasionally are as small as .298") and groove diameters of .310 -.3115".

In getting the best grouping with iron sighted military rifles, eyesight is the limiting factor. Anybody over age 40 who shoots iron sights should equip himself with a "Farr-Sight" from Gil Hebard or Brownell's. This adjustable aperture for your eyeglass frame was intended for indoor pistol shooters, but it helps my iron sight rifle shooting, and adds about 5 points to my score!

So now you have enough fundamentals to get started. If you want to have fun, give that old military rifle a try. You'll never know the fun you've been missing until you try it!

Re: Shotgun News, Vol 52, Issue 21, 1998 - Third issue of July, 20 July 1998, Pg 12 - 13.

There is also a book on-line by Joe Brennen "Cast Bullets for Beginner and Expert" that is a bible for everything you want to know about CBs. You can download it for free or purchase a copy on CD.