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A little info that some people might find interesting that is not over exaggerated or based on urban myth.
The Truth About 308 Win and 762 NATO
http://home.comcast.net/~ehorton/The...d 762 NATO.pdf
Is it safe to shoot 308 Winchester in a rifle chambered for 7.62 NATO?
What about 7.62 in a 308?
By Jim Bullock
http://www.smellysmleshooters.net/ammopressure.htm
Welcome back Ed.
I’ll be honest I don’t know what to think here. This looks exactly like the kind of post that earned you your little holiday. Those posts disrupted this forum and in honesty I’m not sure they fit the scope of a collector oriented website. If this were say a competitive shooting site I feel the content would be more relevant. Yes we have many collectors who also shoot their 7.62mm NATO chambered Enfields BUT the information as presented has been confusing to the point of being useless because of the arguing and combative nature of the posts. Even the information from the link you posted isn’t from an expert.
OK here is how we are going to handle this. The .308W vs. 7.62mm issue has grown to the point of being an urban legend and left many shooters confused and wondering if their rifle is safe to shoot. Unfortunately the internet has only added to the confusion and I don’t want this site to be part of the problem. If someone wishes to post below me in this thread I will expect empirical data as related by experts. I will not accept cut and past copies of what looks like home made charts from other un-named websites with no references to their source. To be a credible expert I would have to say someone would have to be ether in the field of munitions testing or some kind of proof house. If you feel you can meet these criteria please feel free to post here but be forewarned I will not allow this to degrade into a battle of personalities. If you have an ax to grind find your self another stone as I will not put up with it.
Additionally it might be a good idea to reread the forum rules to avoid misunderstandings.
No4Mk1(T)
If you take the time to look in Badgers “Lee Enfield On-line Knowledge Libraries” (Index of Articles) you will see that 90% of the Enfield books and Manuals were donated by me and this includes the books by E.G.B. Reynolds and Jim Sweet.
The information posted here on the .308 and 7.62 is the most accurate anywhere on the internet and it is free of guesswork, rumors or bovine scat. The information posted here does come from munitions testing and proof houses (see table on page 5 of The Truth About 308 Win and 762 NATO) Also read what the expert Jim Bullock has to say in his article “Is it safe to shoot 308 Winchester in a rifle chambered for 7.62 NATO?”.
I collect Enfield rifles, Enfield military manuals and technical information, and any printed matter I can find related to the Enfield rifle, I do not collect rumors or myths. If my information is wrong or incorrect then prove it is wrong and do not suggest that it is just another internet rumor or guesswork.
Jim Bullock
About the author:
Jim Bullock is the grandson and son of rifle shooting competitors. Jim started with a BB gun (a daisy pump) in 1950 and received his first .22 at age 10.
He has represented Canada twelve times as a member of the Canadian rifle Team as a shooter, Coach and Team Captain.
His fullbore rifle shooting started in 1960 using the Lee Enfield #4 in 303 caliber in what was known as Service Rifle (B). That was a well-tuned rifle with a Parker Hale 5C rear sight and the standard post front sight. SR (B) was deliberate (no snap, or rapid fire) at 200 to 1,000 yards. His best shot was a pair of bullseyes fired at 1,000 yards with a 26 minute wind change between shots (that is about 260 inches or about 21 feet of windchange).
He has an extensive firearm collection including a dozen or so Lee Enfields.
Mr. Horton, you are a wonderful fount of knowledges ancient and obscure, and have a fine analytical mind, generally I enjoy your sharing with us, BUT I'm afraid you are also about the thinnest skinned bulldog I've ever run across! Please don't let some others get going 'cuz things quicky get tedious.
Sorry to air this laundry publicly, I just want to enjoy your inputs in the future!
Welcome back Mr Horton and as usuall, thankyou for another very informative posting. Being very new to the use of 7.62/ 308 (other than in MAG58's etc.) I re-read most of the available data you had posted prior so I could be sure not to damage the very rare and collectable rifle I bought a little while back (posting about it graciously permitted here, lower down the page). I wasn't keen on the idea of using surplus military ammunition, prefering to handload with premium quality components available for the .308Win calibre. From your info and input from other experienced fullbore shooters, I was confident to proceede knowing my hefty investment wasn't at risk. :beerchug:
Mate! Give them the documentation and let THEM decide.
We sorted the exploding coachwood theory, now do the same in a similar manner with 7.62 conversions.
Stop entering into, or starting arguements with idiots.
The internet is 99.5% BS. The people that subscribe to it as Gospel are fools.
The worst that can happen is that the general public will be so concerned with buying a 7.62 LE in the fear that it will explode in their face, is that it will drive the price down.
Good to see you back, now just chill down a little:cool:
To all
I’m not hot under the collar but I do not understand the reaction to posting the most accurate information on the subject of the .308 and 7.62 I can find. I have spent years looking for Enfield manuals and information to share with others and the moderators reaction here puzzles me. (Posting cartridge pressure levels should not be this painful)
We have collectors and shooters in our forums and my main interest has always been the care and feeding of the Enfield rifle. If you gain anything from this posting you should note that factory ammunition (.303 and .308) is downloaded to lower pressure levels than it is actually rated for. This is one of the reasons why .303 SAAMI American factory cases do not last long when reloaded and fired in the Enfield rifle compared to Greek HXP cases. (Our American .303 cases are designed for lower chamber pressures to avoid lawsuits)
Below is an example of this from the Speer reloading manual on the 8mm, American .303 British ammunition is loaded to pressures below 43,000 CUP.
“Part of the interest in handloading the 8mm Mauser can be traced to the low power of U.S. factory ammunition. Because of industry concerns over shooters using S-type ammunition in the weaker (and tight-bored) Model 1888 action, the industry pressure limit is set very low-37,000 CUP. As a result, the performance of American 8mm Mauser factory ammo is rather disappointing-not much better than a 30-30. European ammunition is loaded to higher limits allowing the true nature of the cartridge to be experienced. Speer pressure-tested some surplus 8x57mm Turkish military ammunition and it was loaded to 50,000 CUP. Handloaded to higher pressures, the 8mm Mauser is close to the 308 Winchester in power and is suitable for most North Ameri- can game except the great bears.”
No4Mk1(T)
Are people chastised and banned for posting really bad jokes ? :rofl:
Click and read below :rolleyes:
For a good laugh - Military Surplus Collectors Forums
Two things to remember:Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Horton
1. The triangle with the exclamation mark at the top right is where you should report a post that you feel is inapropriate or breaks the rules.
2. There are two forums hosted on the same server that relate to Lee Enfields.
They are managed by different groups of moderators following similar guidelines but there are differences. For the CSP site refer to this post:
Military Surplus Collectors Forums - Announcements in Forum : SMLE (Lee Enfield)
Do you have anything from an original authority that substantiates the statement highlighted in red?
What is your rationale for quoting Speer about the 8X57 & the 1888 Commission rifle? I can provide readily available information that contradicts part of the Speer quote about the bore sizes and the so called weakness of the 1888 German rifle.
The 8X57 information has nothing to do with the .303 British or Lee-Enfields and it is not entirely accurate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Horton
Amatikulu
Why is a moderator from a different forum crossing over and addressing a comment I made to No4Mk1(T)? You made no such comments to this same posting at the Jouster CSP Forum where you are a moderator, are these two forums any different when it comes to subject matter?
My tung and cheek humor here is very simple, if a moderator doesn’t make any comments about jokes made by John Sukey in a Enfield collectors forum why are comments being made here by a moderator on the chamber pressures for the .308 and 7.62 in my thread?
Please take your time answering these questions and remember I have never criticized the Enfield rifle in any fashion and all I’m doing here is furnishing information on the Enfield rifle that I view in the same category as the Enfield books and manuals I have furnished to this forum in the past.
Or is the information I provide to these forums now considered worthless to collectors and shooters alike?
Below, modern headspace settings for the Enfield rifle for ammunition that is only be shot once and not reloaded. ;)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...eadspace-1.jpg
Edward Horton, please see my answers below
Please make sure you read the new rules on CSP so that there are no misunderstandings over how posts will be managed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward Horton
Amatikulu and No4Mk1(T)
1. My apologies, I had both forums open at the same time and confused which forum Mr. Sukey had posted at and got it reversed. (sorry)
2. I served my time in purgatory for 30 days, do not prejudge my new posting here and the information provided.
(no riots have broken out “yet” and I plan to ignore my distracters comments) ;)
"I don't know what the relevance is in your sentence to you never criticising the Lee Enfield rifle"
3. I have never argued with or insulted Mr. Laidler, criticized cordite or think in terms of inherent weakness in the same breath as the Enfield rifle.
Think of me as being a totally different and reformed person now :thup:
(or as close as possible and still not get struck lighting) :rolleyes:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
From a source that has been quoted here before
.303 British.com
Here are Stephen Redgwell's thoughts on the same subject.
7.62x51mm NATO or 308 Winchester? What's the Difference?
Thread Closed !
Edward Horton, Ireload2 and Alfred (who can read this if he ever returns from his own one month forced hiatus) ......
I have never met any of you folks personally and to be honest, on my best day I'm probably not as well read and academically gifted as any one of the three of you. In addition, in Ed's case, I have sincerely appreciated his many contributions and uploaded manuals, both here and across the Internet in several other forums. As I've done many times before, I'd like to publicly thank Ed on behalf of the entire community and note for everyone, that my comments here are distinct and separate from acknowledging those fine efforts.
Having said that, ALL of the moderators in both sets of forums and myself have finally run out of any patience whatsoever in attempting to have you guys collectively see the light as to how disrespectful, ignorant and destructive your Internet social manners and behavior becomes, when the three of you are permitted to interact within the same posts.
It's obvious that no form of penalties through an infraction system that was originally designed to be implemented in children's forums, nor any public and polite requests by any moderators, nor private begging and pleading by me or a few other system administrators through PM's and emails, is going to have the least bit impact on how any of you choose to converse with each other on our site.
It's been quiet and peaceful here with at least any two of you guys sitting out a month's penalty at any one given time, so perhaps the only answer to board civility and sanity, is to see which one of you can be polite enough to be the last man standing, after the other two are gone for life.
So, this is the plan going forward ... :thup:
If I read one more disrespectful comment to each other, or to any moderator in any of the forums, regardless of how minor or innocent it may seem, I will personally BAN that individual from this entire site for LIFE.
If I read any attempt at rebuttal to my comments here, or in any of the forums, regardless of how minor or innocent it may seem, I will personally BAN that individual from this entire site for LIFE.
Please print and paste this information on your computer screens and every time you commence any posts, I'd recommend you re-read my comments to see if you're about to drive off a cliff. To be honest, I'd really recommend you guys put each other on system "ignore" so you stop interacting with each other at all, which just might be the only way you guys can co-exist on the same Internet forums without getting banned.
Finally, do not doubt my resolve. I am so done with you guys, if we were meeting face to face, I'd probably have to be restrained. :mad:
All three of you have me right on the edge of my patience envelope and it wouldn't take much more provocation, or just one more ".. but mom..." comment to have me completely lose it. :nono:
Enough said and the clock starts now. Let's see which of you has enough self control to be that last man standing ... ;)
:cheers:
Doug (Badger)