New fixer-upper 1891 Carcano Cavalry Carbine

Found this yesterday and asked some advice on the advice forum and ended up picking it up today.

Local gun shop find. Original price $249.95 which I figured was way too high. Did some looking around on Gunbroker and other places and with the advice received here figured it was a bit much for my tastes. But went back to look at it again today to get some more details on markings etc and during my inspection, the shop owner approached me and said he'd make a deal with me on it. It had been marked on sale for $229.95 which was still way too high. He said he'd take $175 for it, I countered with $160 and we made the deal.

Looking at the photos I'm now wondering what I got myself into. Natural sunlight really draws attention to flaws that don't show up under indoor lighting.

In any case, there is very little pitting on it despite the large amounts of surface rust. The bore is very good, nice and clean and the action and trigger work great. I have removed the stock from it and found no surprises underneath other than perhaps there is almost no rust at all under the stock. It just looks and feels like something that has sat in a garage through quite a few humid summers to me. Stock interior is a very light tan.

I bought it as a project gun, I like cleaning these things up but usually it's mostly the stocks not this much metal. It has no import marks and the serial number on the barrel/receiver matches that on the stock.

These are the before photos, hopefully by the time I'm done it will look a lot better.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9725-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9724-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9726-1.jpg
Terni manufacture, small "X" on the stock that I hadn't noticed before.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9727-1.jpg
I'm guessing the 36 is the year but the XIV confuses me.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9728-1.jpg
Small number 12, inspection mark or manufacturer mark?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9729-1.jpg
Small separated section of wood, should be easily repaired, nothing missing. "Nice" overspray on the stock adding to the sitting in the garage feeling.

Nothing seems to be broken or missing that I can tell, the interior looks almost like new. If anyone can offer any information on it's markings, or advice on cleaning up the metal or wood I'd appreciate it. Wood I'm pretty good with but the metal is more extensive than I've done before.

Cool little gun that is on my list. If it's just surface rust you should be able handle it easily. Is there some wood missing on the hand guard by the rear sight? Nice score though!

No wood missing on the hand guard but there is a crack in it. What looks like missing wood is where the guard is carved out for the sight to flip down into. It has a fixed sight underneath the adjustable. The small crack has me a little concerned as the wood is so fine there. I figure I'll try to get the oil out before I glue it.

Found the cleaning rod. Intact and inside its storage area. Metal is cleaning up nicely so far. Getting ready to give the stock a first round of cleaning.

Aragorn, on another forum you wrote "It is a Turni, round barrel shank 36-XIV, has a 12 inside a circle stamped on the butt stock close to or part of the wrist. There is a 15 inside a circle on the bolt. Barrel also has what appears to be an AT stamped on it that is partially obscured by the wood and a few other non-letter markings near the wood line. Bayonet is marked F90."

I am posting my answer here, so that readers can refer back to the photos on the previous post.


You have an Italian Mannlicher-Carcano Type M91 d.c. (Modello 91 da cavalleria).
Manufactured by Terni in 1936 - Fascist year XIV. Hence the marking 36-XIV.

The crown itself is the acceptance mark, which had previously been applied alone. From 1930 on, R-E was added to distinguish army weapons from those belonging to fascist units.
(R-E = Regio Esercito = royal army).

AT is the 1936 barrel code for Terni.

The small numbers in circles are inspection codes.

F90 on the bayonet is probably a code for the manufacturer of the blade.

Patrick
:wave:

I think you did well!

If you are careful it ought to clean up fine. Wood's nicer than expected. The worst area seems to be the rear sling metal, which is hardly critical.

I just finished cleaning up the rear sling metal. It came out alright. There is pitting on the outside of the metal of this real sling metal and on the outside metal at both screw holes of the magazine and the inside of the butt plate. All is hidden when the parts are installed so I'm just going to stabilize them and let them alone, they are plenty solid. The butt plate came out a lot better than I expected. Got the rust off and it still maintains a patina although a mottled one. That was the one obvious thing that was covered with heavy rust. Stock is going through it's second coat of the spray orange stuff. Lots of black came off the first time around.

This is after preliminary cleaning:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9730-1.jpg

I've had two days to work in this, probably spent a total of 8 hours on it. The stock was treated with two coatings of citris strip and two coatings of wood bleach on the rust stained areas, rubbed down with steel wool and given one coat of BLO. The cracks were glued, I did use the dreaded sandpaper on the butt stock crack repair.

The metal was scraped with the flat edge of a screwdriver to knock the heavy rust off, wire brushed and lightly steel wooled. The magazine is showing some pitting but everything else cleaned up pretty well. I tried to take the same photos for comparison but this is with flash rather than sunlight as it is now getting dark here.

Let me know what you think.

Before:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9724-1.jpg

After:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9731-1.jpg

Before:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9725-1.jpg

After:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9734-1.jpg

Before:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9726-1.jpg

After:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9732-1.jpg

Before:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9729-1.jpg

After:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_9733-1.jpg

I'm not done with it but was anxious to get it back together. Probably won't get much time to work on it again for a while. I want to go over it again very closely for rust that I may have missed.

Feeling better about your purchase now, Strider?

As far as ammo goes, Norma's the worst, Prvi is a safe but not too accurate choice, and the Hornady is outstanding- IF your bore is in excellent shape. Hornady runs a larger dia. bullet- I like it, but it has stirred some controversy in the past. There's several older threads about ammo and such in this and the "ammunition and reloading" forum. An excellent old MKL article as well, I think.

My little carbine is about the least accurate of my Carcanos, but the front sight's too close for good focus anymore. A younger fellow would probably do better. What's interesting to me is that all my fixed sight Carcanos have spot on combat zeroes!

Military Surplus Collectors Forums

More 6.5 Carcano fun coming!

6.5 carcano

Yes, I feel pretty comfortable with my purchase now. I figured the metal would clean up but you never really know for sure. I still have to find some clips before I plan on getting ammo for it. I've looked around and found several places that sell them so that shouldn't be too hard. I'm not in a rush to shoot it though.

Slings appear to be a bit tougher. I found a couple of old ones for sale that don't look like they are correct, one on ebay looks more like a Chilean Mauser sling than a Carcano. There doesn't appear to be any repro slings out there either other than K98 slings which various sources say were used on these. Finnish marked slings seem more common but this isn't a Finnish marked rifle so I don't really want to go with one of them.

That cleaned up really well! Almost looks blued again.

Nice save Aragorn243! It almost looks like a completely different rifle.

I'm glad to took the 'before' photo. I've forgotten to do that a couple of times and wished I had after I finished.

~ Harlan

I was surprised with the level of finish that is left on it. While I think the camera flash added some "blueing" to the pics it is blue rather than brown now. There is still some blueing underneath the rusted areas so when cleaned these are just a lighter shade of blue but not silver and they blend pretty well. I'm still finding the occasional bit that I missed on the barrel.

I have a couple of rifles I wish I had before photos of, a Chilean Mauser that was black when I got it from dirt and grime. Couldn't see any markings on it. When it was cleaned the Chilean Crest popped right out on the butt stock. It's a nice dark reddish brown now.

That reloading thread is pretty scary stuff. I have a Hodgedon manual that has quite a few combinations and bullet weights and no particular warnings other than to take care with the maximum loads. I haven't even had a chance to see if anyone around here sells the ammo for it. Cabelas should, they have everything else. The price is the issue.

As regards the 6.5 Carcano Hornady loads, I have just followed their recipes EXACTLY and have had most excellent results.

Right now, though, it's .303"SAA and 7.62x51 time- and working with the 303 is much easier!

I picked up two boxes of Privi-partisan at Cabelas this evening. Probably won't be very accurate as they are spitzer tipped and too light but the brass is the exact same brass in the Norma loads and at $10 a box less, I'll shoot these and reload them.

Got a sling and 5 clips for it in the mail yesterday so all I need now is some time and some nice weather to coincide for a trip to the range.

If the Prvi brass is like mine, it's better than the Norma brass- the main difference being the area around the base. The Norma is not as compatible with the Carcano clips and doesn't want to function smoothly.

Wow. Nice Rifle!!! What Kind of orange stripper did You Use? May want to try that on My 1912 Enfield stock. Nice find and a great save...

I loaded all 5 clips up with 6 rounds and had no problems with any of them. I did NOT put them in the rifle and try chambering them. Figured safety was more important than curiosity at this point. I need to head to the range to check that out.

The orange stuff is called Citristrip and I bought a 17 ounce spray can of it. I think this is the third rifle stock that I've cleaned with it, the other two being a #5 Jungle carbine and a Chilean Mauser. Feels like there is enough in there for at least one more. It's billed as a "safer paint and varnish stripper. Safe for indoor use (I spray it in the tub/shower enclosure) and it does remove some pigmented stains.

You got a great deal at $160, the gun was easily worth the original asking price of $249, like all other military bolt action rifles, the Carcano is going up and up, and in that condition, 90% bluing and almost 100% original stock finish, you have a keeper. It even has the original cleaning rod in the buttstock, you almost never see that. Congratulations!

However, and I know that this is not going to be a popular statement but I have to say it. A careful cleaning with soap and water would have removed the dirt from the wood and that really was all it needed. The Citris Strip removed the original varnish and color/stain and that really affected the value of the piece. It caused the value to plunge from the $250 range down to the $160 that you paid for it, so, at least, you came out even. I'm sorry, I know you worked hard on it but.....

Here is alink to the same carbine on a translated Italian site "Il91" that is full of great information. As you can see, the original color is exactly like what you started out with:

Google Translate

I hope the link works for you. If not, try here and click on the site name on the screen ( Storia del fucile 91 ) to get in and find the internal links to all Carcano rifles and carbines along with information on ammunition, enbloc clips, stock and marking on wood and steel and much more. Set up a Google translation and you will be able to read it quite comfortably. Enjoy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gew8805

However, and I know that this is not going to be a popular statement but I have to say it. A careful cleaning with soap and water would have removed the dirt from the wood and that really was all it needed. The Citris Strip removed the original varnish and color/stain and that really affected the value of the piece. It caused the value to plunge from the $250 range down to the $160 that you paid for it, so, at least, you came out even. I'm sorry, I know you worked hard on it but.....

---

No problem, I prefer it cleaned and have no plans to re-sell it anytime soon. That being said, it sat unsold for quite a while in the condition it was in and I have little doubt I could easily get the original starting price for it now. Coloration for these is all over the place from light to dark and this rifle had no varnish on it to begin with, just oil and dirt (and spray paint).

I think it's one of the best 'Before' and 'Afters' I've ever seen.

I couldn't believe how nice it turned out. Nice work!

Very nice Aragorn 243, and as to the finish - that honey color is just the same as on my "Roma" - the 91/41 parade rifle. Looks much better than the "old railroad tie" surface - grease and dirt is not something to be preserved! When you have fired off the PRVI-Partisan ammo, get hold of some of the long round-nose Hornady bullets and check how they fit. They should perform better in the reloads than the PRVI spitzers, because of the long cylindrical section.

Patrick

I am looking forward to getting out and shooting it along with a few others I picked up recently. Weather here has just been terrible. Rain nearly every day and the coming weekend not looking much better. I am set up to reload most of the rifles I have but need to pick up some dies for the Carcano.

I must have done ok with the sling because when I put it on, the marks on the wood just below the front sling holder match the "new" sling perfectly. It has no markings that I can find but was advertised as a Carcano sling. It is old, that much is obvious. Whether it's WWII old or not, I can't tell. It is not one of the K98 sling look alikes but a buckle type with no holes other than where the brass pin holds the small end together.

So which one of the following three will kick the worst:

303 Jungle Carbine
M44 Carbine
Carcano Carbine

I figure I'll take these three out when I can go. I've fired the full stocked 303 rifles before with no issues at all but this has a lot of weight removed. Never fired one of the Russians of any size and never fired a Carcano of any type. I would figure that to have the least "kick" to it but it is also smaller and lighter than the other two.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I must have done ok with the sling because when I put it on, the marks on the wood just below the front sling holder match the "new" sling perfectly. It has no markings that I can find but was advertised as a Carcano sling.... a buckle type with no holes other than where the brass pin holds the small end together.

---

Sounds promising. Could you post a pic of the sling, taking care to show the ends?

And I have fired a 6.5 Carcano carbine belonging that has been "sporterized", thus reducing the weight to 22 plinker level. No problem at all - and it shoots dead on with original ammo. I have suggested to the owner that if he wants to throw it away, he should throw it in my direction!

Patrick
:wave:

Took photos of the sling. Did not take it completely off the rifle but tried to get everything you asked for. I didn't pay that much for it so if it isn't an original carcano sling it isn't a big deal. I got the clips from the same place. Numbers on the bottoms are not all the same, probably different production lots but I got 5 for $10 which was by far the cheapest I've seen them advertised anywhere.

Sling button:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0056-1.jpg

Sling upper end:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0052-1.jpg

Sling assembled:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0051-1.jpg

Buckle outside:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0054-1.jpg

Buckle inside:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0053-1.jpg

Buckle inside reverse:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SC_00551-1.jpg

Clip bottom:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0058-1.jpg

Clip side:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0057-1.jpg

My three carbines:
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0059-1.jpg

As you can see, I'm missing a bayonet on the jungle carbine. Anyone have an extra? :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

Very nice Aragorn 243, and as to the finish - that honey color is just the same as on my "Roma" - the 91/41 parade rifle. Looks much better than the "old railroad tie" surface - grease and dirt is not something to be preserved! When you have fired off the PRVI-Partisan ammo, get hold of some of the long round-nose Hornady bullets and check how they fit. They should perform better in the reloads than the PRVI spitzers, because of the long cylindrical section.

Patrick

---

Patrick, sorry to hear that you feel that way. I will say that the carbine looks great for what it now is, a refinished military rifle. However, preserving the original finish would have been very easy and much more rewarding historically. Where "the "old railroad tie" surface - grease and dirt is not something to be preserved!" statement comes from, I am not sure? What was removed was the original stain and varnish applied to the gun when new by the Italian manufacturer for the Italian military. A perfectly acceptable, even desirable finish on a collectible firearm. Now, it is true that Italian arms are found occasionally, as new, with the blond finish where no staining was done to the stock and that this finish may pass as "original" in some less informed circles but it will forever be viewed as improper to the growing discerning collector community - Italian arms are finally getting the respect that they have long deserved.

A much simpler and easier way to get this gun completely back to original condition could have been done one of two ways:

(1) Clean the stock using warm water with a small amount of mild detergent applied with a soft brush, or

(2) Apply Vaseline liberally to the stock and, after a short time, wipe it of with paper towels or a rough cloth. This will easily remove encrusted dirt and oils (including cosmoline) applied over the years, one or two applications will do the job and preserve the original finish and color.

Will the above give a fine modern factory finish? No, they will not but the gun in question here is a common soldier's weapon and, whenever possible, that appearance should be preserved. It was not finished in the way that a civilian sporting arm was then or now.

Aragorn243, allow me to say again, your rifle (carbine) does look nice and you can be happy with it since it is finished to your liking, after all, it is yours - for the time being.:thup:

Following is a picture of the only three type slings used by the Italian military.https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...Itslings-1.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

I got 5 for $10 which was by far the cheapest I've seen them advertised anywhere.

---

That was indeed a bargain. At that price grab all you can - it will be a good investment!

I am not sure about the sling. I think it may be a cut-down of a long rifle sling. But I am not a sling expert, and I hope someone else has an idea!

Patrick
:wave:

Patrick,

Sling does not appear to be cut down but it does not match any known Carcano slings I've seen. It fits so it will do for now until something better comes along.

It does look very similar to a Chilean Mauser sling that I have, the buckle portion anyway. For that I believe it would be too short though.

gew8805.

While I do appreciate your efforts to educate me on the Carcano, I believe that having the rifle in my hands makes me a better judge on what is on it finish wise and what is not, and what is grease, dirt, grime and the original finish color than you are from looking at a few photos.

There was no varnish on this rifle which you stated there was, the original finish is the color I obtained after cleaning it. Years of grease, rubbed in oil of any sort and simply sitting in a dirty garage in a humid environment like this rifle looked like it had been all contributed to the color it was in when purchased, I suspect that is the "railroad tie" appearance suggested by Patrick. I've worked with wood nearly my entire life and can recognize abuse or in this case neglect.

I did look at your site and saw some very nice rifles with varnish that in no way looked like the rifle I own either before or after the cleaning process. I have neither seen any rifle on the net of this type in that dark red color. On the other hand, a good 60% of the rifles I did see look exactly like the finished version. And just for reference, no Carcano I've ever seen looked like those at the site you recommended. Most look similar to those you show in your sling type photo.

I'd grade this rifle at about 70% metal finish and a simple military oil finish as purchased and was admittedly very surprised at your appraisal of it's condtion at 90% metal and 100% wood.

I guess what I'm trying to say is judging something from a photo is not as easy as holding it in your hands. The flash and/or lighting can make things look different than they really are and I mentioned that in my post with the photos.

I have since applied about a dozen coats of BLO to this rifle and you can't tell any difference between it and dozens of others that I've looked at other than it is now free of the grime and dirt that had been on it.

Now I understand the thought that some fellows have about the "history" of a given firearm. At the one end are those that really don't care at all and cut down the rifle to make it into something they want, a sporterized version or a bubba depending on your view. The other end has those that don't want anything done to the rifle because somehow they interpret the "history" from the dents, dirt, grime, rust, etc. I fall somewhere in between there I guess. I want to preserve the actual history of the rifle, that being the marks, stampings, etc and keeping the finish as close to the original as possible. I do not consider dirt or grease to be "history", I consider it as either signs of abuse or preservation depending on the type and as my ultimate goal is to have a rifle that I can AFFORD that looks as closely to what it would have looked to the man who carried it during it's period of service. I believe I have succeeded in accomplishing that with this Carcano.

Along that same train of thought, I restored a RC K98 to it's German appearance rather than that of it's Russian refurbishers. In this instance I did indeed remove some history from the rifle, that being the step where it was captured and given a coat of shellac after being rebuilt and reblued. But as the German soldier did not carry this rifle with red shellac, I personally felt compelled to remove it. I did not alter the X on the receiver or the serial number on the stock or the electro penciled serial numbers on the metal so it will forever remain a RC K98 that looks like it should in German hands.

So again, thanks for the advice but I can tell you that I never would have appreciated this rifle the way I do now had I not put the time and effort into restoring it to what I believe it's original condition to have been (within reason). I did not try to make it a new rifle.

Jmoore's Carcano Carbine above and Aragorn243's below:

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...stuff041-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...SC_00591-1.jpg
Never cleaned mine, particularly. Is it original?:dunno:

They're both pretty nifty! Just think, at least two different rear sight variations and NINE or so bayonet lock variants! It's a whole mini collectors' genre...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gew8805

Where "the "old railroad tie" surface - grease and dirt is not something to be preserved!" statement comes from, I am not sure?

---

From me, actually. I don't restrict myself to repeating what other people have already said!

Thanks for publishing the photos of original Carcano slings, the best I have yet seen. The last one seems to have an extraordinary number of of holes. Was it perhaps a "one size fits all" model for eveything right back to the original 1891 long rifle?

Patrick
:wave:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Patrick Chadwick

I am not sure about the sling. I think it may be a cut-down of a long rifle sling. But I am not a sling expert, and I hope someone else has an idea!

Patrick
:wave:

---

It looks like a Belgian FN 49 sling, a comparison can be had here FN 49 Sling

Cheers,
David

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cruisey

It looks like a Belgian FN 49 sling, a comparison can be had here FN 49 Sling

Cheers,
David

---

Without measuring it, I would say that is exactly what it is. Thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gew8805

The Citris Strip removed the original varnish and color/stain and that really affected the value of the piece.

---

To clarify this matter, here is some info that is not my opinion, where I can tell you "where the statement comes from":

"As a rule, the stocks were preserved from moisture by being treated with hot linseed oil and stained dark brown. Some of the later beech stocks, that replaced the missing walnut from 1916 on, were not stained and remained rather light in color. Varnishing was probably first applied post-1945, but this has not yet been clarified."

OK, that was my translation, but if you want the original, then go to "Il Novantuno" by Wolfgang Riepe, P.82.

So: yes to original treatment with linseed oil, (probably) no to original varnishing on a pre-war rifle, and a "could be either way" for original staining. And a general recommendation for caution when judging surfaces by photos. Remember it is always AFAICSWAHTOIMH. (As Far As I Can See Without Actually Having The Object In My Hands)

Patrick
:wave:

Patrick an excellent post with good information from the current "best source" on information on the "91", Riepe's book is highly thought of. I do have to say that I do not own a copy since it is in German which I can not read so I will have to struggle along with "Il 91" by Simone, Belogi and Grimaldi which I can barely struggle through. I'll have to depend on correct translations of Riepe from people like you, like the statement below:

"As a rule, the stocks were preserved from moisture by being treated with hot linseed oil and stained dark brown. Some of the later beech stocks, that replaced the missing walnut from 1916 on, were not stained and remained rather light in color. Varnishing was probably first applied post-1945, but this has not yet been clarified."

This is good and verifiable information from someone who has studied the Carcano and original Italian documents. But (there is always a "but...") I do have to remind everyone that the stain is applied first before the linseed (or flax seed) oil, especially on beechwood stocks. Beech is a very finely grained wood and takes a stain with difficulty, that is one reason that it is so easily removed when refinishing. The hot oil (also called a varnish) is applied by dunking after the stain since stain in the oil will not penetrate the wood well. After the dunking in the hot oil, the oil is wiped off and allowed to dry, leaving a finish in and on the wood. That oil finish (what I was calling varnish) is what we saw as the rough, dirty looking substance on the stock over the stain. We have to remember that varnishes used before WW2 almost everywhere for military firearms were oil-based and can be confused with pure linseed or flax seed oil. Had Aragorn243 used a less destructive method on the stock he may have been able to remove the degraded oil/varnish without disturbing the stain that was still in the wood and then been able to keep the stock looking as it did when new. Of course, it is Aragorn243's gun and it is his to do with as he sees fit.

I am glad that you enjoyed the picture I posted of the Italian slings and I have to say that they are not my slings. They are as follows:

The top sling is an Italian sling adopted during WW2 using the German style buckle of the Kar98k sling on one end and a button on the other. They were primarily supposed to have been for the Italian submachinegun but are also seen in period photographs in use with Italian carbines and short rifles.

The middle sling is called by the Italians "cinghia per fucile modello 91 (in cuoio lavorato col colore naturale) con due bottoni" or "sling for rifle model 91 (in finished leather with natural color) with two buttons". This was the primary sling for the M91 longrifle and all short rifles with wide sling swivels like the M91 T.S. and M91/24. It is 1.25 inches wide - much wider than the other two illustrated - and has two buttons, one at either end with slots cut in the leather that allow it to be adjusted to length during use. These are very hard to find and seem to have fallen out of use well before the end of WW2.

The bottom sling is, at least here in the US, the most commonly seen Italian sling. It is adjustable by a single brass or steel buckle with a tongue and uses a brass or steel button. It is sized with a length that allows it to be used on the longrifle and of a width allowing it to be used on any of the rifles or carbines. This is the original Carcano carbine sling but was long enough to use on the rifle as well. It was, to a certain extent, replaced by the top sling but will be seen in use by the Italians from the earliest days of the Carcano until at least the 1950s.

Mmm, I'm in a difficult position here - I have to (partially) agree with both of you!

If the surface on Aragorn's rifle was just a grubby oil finish, then it might have been possible to simply wash it down with natural turpentine, which would have fired up the wood again. Maybe. On the other hand, Aragorn, who actually had it in his hands, and is no raw beginner, judged that there was no original finish worth preserving.

For my own rifles, I simply take the standpoint of a practical shooter, and do whatever it takes to get the rifle shooting properly. That means that, for instance, I might not bother to clean up the woodwork overmuch, thus "preserving the original finish" through plain creative laziness rather than collector's idealism. On the other hand, I will not hesitate to freshen up a damaged crown* so that the rifle shoots properly - regardless of any antique aspects - because I want a functioning rifle, not a wallhanger, however original that wallhanger may be. It was, after all, built to shoot, not to be decorative!

Patrick
:wave:

*by the absolutely minimal amount necessary!

As staining would have been done prior to final assembly of the rifle in its original manufacture, the stain would have been applied to all surfaces of the wood, including the barrel channels and the inside of the magazine wells. The color of the wood on the interior surfaces was all the light color which the exterior surfaces are now. This rifle was dirty, not stained.

Linseed oil or flax oil are called drying oils and are an ingredient of some varnishes but they are not varnishes and should not be called as such. Military oil finishes are designed to penetrate the wood, varnish is designed to provide a hard protective coating on the surface of the wood. Varnish is not a very effective protection for military rifles. The shellac used by the Soviets is the only common hard surface coating applied to military arms and anyone that owns one can attest that it is not the best finish to maintain.

Patrick, you should not consider yourself to be in any kind of an uncomfortable position in this discussion at all, you have handled everything very well. I know that I feel that way and I am sure that Aragorn243 feels the same. The discussion has been pleasant and completely proper.

Aragorn243, there are many definitions of the word varnish.
Merriam-Webster states: varnish - a liquid preparation that when applied to a surface dries to form a hard lustrous typically transparent coating.
This usually contains solvents and driers to assist in drying, penetration and durability but can also be a pure oil finish as is seen well back in arms history. On a wood like beech, where due to denseness of grain does not allow easy penetration, a pure oil finish or varnish will not penetrate well and lies on the surface and tends to crack, crinkle and otherwise deteriorate as was seen on you carbine. You chose to remove the unsightly finish and that can be fine but it is preferable in the collecting world to leave it alone or at least do minimal "damage" to that finish as long as any original coloring (stain) is left alone. Now, you chose to remove the stain along with the finish and that is perfectly okay due to the use that you want to put it to. While in pure collecting circles it will degrade the financial worth of the piece, it does make it visually more attractive and that is acceptable in the collecting area of shooter or user grade. And the argument can always be made that in some rare instances no stain was used or it was so thin that it is hardly noticeable on the beech stocks.

What I am saying is that you have done well and restored to use a carbine that has languished for years, unappreciated and unused. If I have offended you, I apologize. Use it in good health and, most of all, enjoy it.

I hope that the information that I posted on slings is helpful, there is also a relatively scarce cloth sling made and used during WW2 that is seen on a current thread on Gunboards.

---------- Post added at 10:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 AM ----------

I forgot to add that the shellac used on Russian rifles was a storage preservative only and was not intended to stay on the rifle in use. Shellac is a very different animal than varnish, it does not stand up to moisture or wear at all well while varnish can endure hard treatment and moisture quite well and, depending on the makeup of the varnish, can be restored quickly and well.

I got a replacement sling today for the FN 49 sling I had on it. Looks to be the real deal. Matches known examples perfectly. Was stated to be an original, not a repro but who knows, price was right in either case. No markings on it that I can find.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aragorn243

As you can see, I'm missing a bayonet on the jungle carbine. Anyone have an extra? :)

---

Definately no, but another Carcano Mosqueto that would be lucky to look like yours!:thup:

New photos in natural light and the new sling.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0770-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0771-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0774-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0773-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0772-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0776-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC_0775-1.jpg

:thup:Carbine envy!

You've done a rare thing...

Aragorn243, a very nice original sling using the German-style buckle intended for use on the Italian submachineguns but seen in period photographs in use on Carcano short rifles and carbines from the end of WW2 and into the post-War period. You did well and showed excellent perseverance finding it. Congratulations.
:thup:

Took the rifle to the range today. Learned two things. Always research the sight picture on an unfamiliar rifle before going to the range and take bigger targets. I took 8 1/2 x 11 sheets of paper and am rather embarassed to say I never found the paper. I also need new glasses much worse than I believed.

My primary purpose was to ensure the rifle would function properly so hitting the paper was not that important today. But it would have been nice. Cases had no deformities, cracks or scratches and the primers all look good after firing. Rifle loaded smoothly but there was a slight stiffness unlocking the bolt after firing. No extraction problems, just that last quarter inch in turning the bolt. I do not know if this indicates a problem with the rifle or not so any advice would be appreciated. If I turned the bolt rapidly with some force, it opened right up. I'm used to very smooth bolts on hunting style rifles so this is what I consider very stiff. My shooting of milsurps is limited to a 303 Enfield and that's about it.

Try dropping the front sight as far down into the notch as you can and still see a tiny amount of the tip. Works for me at 100yds. Also, as yours is an adjustible sight version, flip the moving leaf over into it's cutout on the handguard.

The hard extraction seems to be a function of bolt fittment. Unlike front locking Mausers, the cam is on the bolt lug and in the receiver ring. I have smoothed up a few quite nicely before, but have not advanced my technique to anything cut and dried. Regardless, if you operate it vigorously, it ought not be a reliability issue. Not the best for bench work, though!

The first few shots I had forgotten to flip the adjustable sight up. I was also shooting at 50 yards which I figured would help get it on the paper. Flipped the sights up and used the fixed sight but was lining up the top of the front sight with the top of the V. I did that the first few rounds as well. I did finally take the paper out to 100 yards and put the top of the front post near the bottom of the V but not all the way. After one shot of this decided I was just wasting ammo and I needed to go back with a large piece of cardboard so I can see where things are hitting. I assume I was probably way high with everything but I've never been one to see where the bullet strikes even with good glasses. Without knowing where they were didn't allow me to even attempt corrections.

Lesson learned, will try it again with the post in the bottom of the V as you suggest.

I'm going to give the chamber a good cleaning too. I may have a bit of debris or dirt in there from the rust removal process that is causing it to hang up a bit.

If you're shooting factory loads and they're anything other than Hornady I'm afraid you'll never get ''on paper''. Factory 6.5 Carcano ammo is loaded with .264'' dia. bullets, Hornady uses .268'' bullets. Carcano bores normally slug .266-.269, and the bullets in the milsurp ammo I have measure .267''. I recently restored a M1941 Carcano and was out shooting up some PRVI stuff for the brass and the best 100 yd 6 shot group i could manage was a buckshot pattern of around 20 '', at 200 yds it was more like 5 feet. With handloads and .268'' bullets 100 yd 6 shot groups now average 3 1/2 ''. Despite the bad rap Carcano's can produce surprising accuracy with the right ammo.

Had to revisit this thread as I picked up another 6,5 carbine at the pawn shop. Stock doesn't match the barrel S/N and it's been sanded and coated with something shiny, but they let me have it for a "buck twenty-five". Had actually gone in looking for some woodworking tools for a flooring project.

So it looks like some more stock "abuse" is forthcoming! Photos too. Won't be as nice as Aragorn243's, but his thread was the inspiration to go ahead and squander the money. Kinda like poor abused pups dumped on the side of the road (which is where my last dog came from, incidentally.)- you just feel a little sorry for 'em.

Looking forward to pictures. I've been sorely tempted to do another of these the past week but better judgement won out I believe. Cabelas has a 7.35 with a cut stock in for $125. There was an auction yesterday with a "Japanese 7.35 without bolt and a Japanese 7.35 with bolt along with a bolt action 22?. All three were Italian Caarcanos, two being 6.5 including the one "with bolt". Without bolt sold for $70, with bolt sold for $110 and 22? sold for $120. All three had badly butchered stocks and were missing a good bit of metal parts. I figured I'd buy the with bolt for parts if I could get it for $40 or so. I guess being the rare "Japanese" version, it was worth more to someone. There was something odd about 22?, looked like it was the cavalry version with the hinge filed off. Didn't study it too closely after deciding it wasn't going to be cost effective to restore it. They also failed to identify a Swiss 1896, that was a real shame. cut down barrel, rusted bore, butchered stock, drilled for a scope. Matching numbers though. I had never been to that auction before, wasn't impressed. Prices slightly better on the good items than my regular auction but they bid up the crappy stuff.