Do you have a 1950 Long Branch?

If you have a 1950 dated Long Branch, I need some information please:

1. what are the first 3 digets of the serial #? eg.) 91L6
2. Is the action blued or parkerized?
3. what is the barrel date? ( 2 digets found on the knox-form) eg.) '50
4. is the barrel parkerized or blued?
5. is the bolt parkerized or blued?
6. is the striker parkerized or blued?

Thank You for your help.

I'm trying to pin down when LB switched to parkerizing from bluing.
I've been telling people for years that they switched early in 1950, but have come across info indicating a later date of change-over.

Unfortunately my sample is quite small, so I'm appealing to everyone for info.
*91L0013, 1949 all blued*
*91L0387, 1949 ~ Skennerton LB serial survey
*91L250x, 1949 all blued*
*91L3247, 1949 all blued* Wayne.SK
*91L3847, 1949 ~ Skennerton LB serial survey
*91L5133, 1949 ~ LB serial survey
*91L6, blued, 49, blued, blued, blued*

BA57*** (renumbered but) blued, barrel 50, blued, blued, blued
91L60xx, Action blued, Barrel date '50, Barrel blued, Bolt blued, Striker blued
91L6418, 1950 Wayne.SK
91L6, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued
91L66XX ~ 1950 LB serial survey
91L7, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued
91L7, ?????
91L8, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued
91L9018, 1950 Skennerton LB serial survey
92L0, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued (3x)
93L0, Blued, ?, ?, ?, ?
93L1, parked, ?, ?, ?, ?
93L16, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued
93L2, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued (x2)
93L4, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued (x2)
93L45, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked
93L52, parked, '50, parked, blued, parked
93L67, parked, '50, parked, blued, parked
93L6, parked, ?, parked, parked, blued
93Lx, Blued, ?, ?, ?, ?
94L0, parked, ?, parked, parked, blued
94L0, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked
94L0, park, '50, park, park, park
94L3, parked, '50, parked, blued, parked
94L5, blued, '50, parked, blued, blued
94L8, parked, '51, parked, blued, blued
94L9, parked, '51, parked, parked, parked
95L1, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked
95L1, parked, '51, parked, parked, parked
95L4, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked (1 of 10 consecutive from sealed case)
95L4, parked, ?, ?, ?, ?
95L75, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked
95L78, parked, '51, parked, parked, parked
95L8, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked
95L8, parked, 50, parked, parked, parked
95L9, parked, '51, parked, parked, parked
95Lx, parked, '51, parked, blued, blued
96L00xx, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked
96L0012, parked, '51, parked, parked, parked
96L0013 ~ highest # seen (can no longer find photo 8.06.09)

If you don't want to post openly, you could PM me.

Thanks to everyone who's helped

added info to CGN message 73
2.23.12 added 2x 1950 serials and 4x 1949 serials
__________________

Hi,here is a pic of my 1950.It is like new.Still has the DND storage tag.All parkerized except for the front site protector and mag.serial # 94L0
All parts are CA Canadian arsenal marked.
Eric

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1165626160

I haven't had a chance to build a Knowledge Library entry for this one yet, but here's the 1950 that is in ~Angel~'s collection.

"All Matching Serial Numbers (un-issued rifle)"

1950 C No.4 Mk1* Longbranch Rifle (.303) Serial # 95L1983

Hope this helps....

Regards,
Badger

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

:sos: snip...

Editing problem solved, info added to 1st post

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For some reason I can't edit the original post??

Need more info in the 91Lx to 93L9 range!

Unless someone finds a blued receiver in the 94L0-95L9 ranges, or finds a receiver OVER 95L9, ie) 96L0!

Actually we are answering another question here, "how high do the 1950 serials go?" So far our survey shows @39,000 rifles dated 1950.

Which raises yet another question: Do any 1951-56 dated LB receivers follow the serial sequence or are they all "replacement receivers"?

Shey should be all replacement receivers, though I am unsure if they would re-use the original serial, or just assign the nex number in the 95L block. It's been so long since I've seen one that I don't recall what the serial numbers looked like!

94L5; receiver blued; 50; barrel Parked; bolt blued; striker blued. Rifle was used for DCRA target shooting; previously owned by 2 prominent DCRA members.

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Originally Posted by tiriaq

94L5; receiver blued; 50; barrel Parked; bolt blued; striker blued. Rifle was used for DCRA target shooting; previously owned by 2 prominent DCRA members.

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Tiriaq,
Does the receiver have a greenish tinge? If so I would suggest that it was actually parkerized.

However, bluing would fit right in with my understanding that the componants were tossed in a bin, and as they got low, the bottom ones were accessed. Then it was refilled with fresh receivers.

Supposedly the final operation of the finished gun was the serial numbering process.

This is the reason that Winchester lever actions often show patent markings out of sequence between barrel, receiver & serial numbers.

No, it doesn't have a greenish tinge. But it isn't a semi shiney blue either. I could try emailing you photos, but sometimes true colour is hard to capture. When I took off the handguard to check the barrel date, the barrel finish is blue/black in colour, but has a matte crystalline appearance, which is why I listed Park. This rifle was actually used for target shooting, so would have been cleaned, wiped down, etc. I'll remove the stock, and see what the receiver looks like in protected areas. Came in a fitted case though, so it is in nice condition. It was previously owned by CSM H Rusk, and Col. John C. Brick. I have no doubt that rifles were assembled from parts from bins, rather than being set up from parts newly manufactured at the same time.
OK, I removed the wood to see the protected portion of the receiver. It is not an even blue, but is a rather different finish than the barrel. PM your email address, and I'll send photos. I'm on dialup, and posting photos through a host site is painfully slow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claven2

Shey should be all replacement receivers, though I am unsure if they would re-use the original serial, or just assign the nex number in the 95L block. It's been so long since I've seen one that I don't recall what the serial numbers looked like!

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https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif
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Hi,Here is a pic of my 1956 LB.It is a DCRA 308.Serial # 91L5 I take it to be a replacment receiver?
Eric
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1165889742

All the unissued 1950 LB No.4's I've seen were deeply and richly blued. Those that were parkerized, it has always been considered that they were refurbished by CAL after manufacture.

In fact, on the batches of unissued 1950 LB's that returned from Belgium, all were blued with no parked parts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by superbee

Hi,Here is a pic of my 1956 LB.It is a DCRA 308.Serial # 91L5 I take it to be a replacment receiver?
Eric
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...g?t=1165889742

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Eitehr that, or a spare CAL receiver used to build a .308 club gun - also somewhat common.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claven2

All the unissued 1950 LB No.4's I've seen were deeply and richly blued. Those that were parkerized, it has always been considered that they were refurbished by CAL after manufacture.

In fact, on the batches of unissued 1950 LB's that returned from Belgium, all were blued with no parked parts.

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Claven, you should take another look at the (admittedly) incomplete data in my second post.

The change-over from bluing to parkerizing appears to occur between 93L1 & 93L6.

I looked at 95L4x65 which was the middle # of 10 consecutively serialed 1950 LBs, which were Belgian bring backs. I hope to get back early next Sat to examine the original shipping crate.

Disproving the theory: Unfortunately every part was parkerized (and CA marked) including the bands & barrel. Didn't pull the handguard off to check the bbl date because the gun is still cosmo'd & the bolt un-opened.

Why anyone would have FTRed a case of brand new guns is quite the puzzle...:confused:

Actually, if you don't take my word for it, you could check out Brian Dick's comments in the thread on Jouster. He said:

Quote:

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Posted By: Brian Dick
Date: Saturday, 9 December 2006, at 5:47 pm

In Response To: jean, I pulled some strings last night (dcv)

I had 200 Long Branch rifles in 2001 imported back from Greece through England. The Parkerized finish was prevalent after the mid 93L serial range as stated before. There were no blue bodies and barrels after that point. Some were in near new condition and had obviously never seen CDN/FTR. There were also CDN/FTR rifles with Parkerized finish and WWII dates in the mix but the 1950 rifles all sported original finish. Some with more use had seen work in Greek workshops and had a mix of British and Canadian woodwork and the usual stock patches, etc.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

Claven, you should take another look at the (admittedly) incomplete data in my second post.

The change-over from bluing to parkerizing appears to occur between 93L1 & 93L6.

I looked at 95L4x65 which was the middle # of 10 consecutively serialed 1950 LBs, which were Belgian bring backs. I hope to get back early next Sat to examine the original shipping crate.

Disproving the theory: Unfortunately every part was parkerized (and CA marked) including the bands & barrel. Didn't pull the handguard off to check the bbl date because the gun is still cosmo'd & the bolt un-opened.

Why anyone would have FTRed a case of brand new guns is quite the puzzle...:confused:

Actually, if you don't take my word for it, you could check out Brian Dick's comments in the thread on Jouster. He said:

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Are these rifles for sale or are you in the army?:beerchug:

I see what you're saying, but hte greeks could be refurbs. I've had TWO 1950 LB's, both 95L's and both with factory blue on every part. Of course, they could be aberrations. One had an RSAF Enfield front handguard and was ENGLAND stamped (re-import) and the other came slathere in cosmo from a gunshow - likely unissued. Sadly, both have been sold off a few years ago :( I did have pics, but lost them in a HDD crash :(

The 15 or so rifles in your survey are hardly representative IMHO as with that small a sample most might be refurbs - who knows?

Everything I've ever read in books (as oposed to forums) indicates the switch to park happened AFTER 1950 at CAL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claven2

I see what you're saying, but hte greeks could be refurbs. I've had TWO 1950 LB's, both 95L's and both with factory blue on every part. Of course, they could be aberrations. One had an RSAF Enfield front handguard and was ENGLAND stamped (re-import) and the other came slathere in cosmo from a gunshow - likely unissued. Sadly, both have been sold off a few years ago :( I did have pics, but lost them in a HDD crash :(

The 15 or so rifles in your survey are hardly representative IMHO as with that small a sample most might be refurbs - who knows?

Everything I've ever read in books (as oposed to forums) indicates the switch to park happened AFTER 1950 at CAL.

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My 1949 was supposedly back from Greece. It had a tag on the triggerguard in Greek...it appeared unissued and it is blued.

I have 93L41xx.
'50 barrel and all parts blued.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cantom

Are these rifles for sale or are you in the army?:beerchug:

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Neither, private "museum"

Yes I have tried to buy stuff out of it before, but I didn't like the terms...:banghead:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

Neither, private "museum"

Yes I have tried to buy stuff out of it before, but I didn't like the terms...:banghead:

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Ouch! I get the brick wall part...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claven2

I see what you're saying, but hte greeks could be refurbs. I've had TWO 1950 LB's, both 95L's and both with factory blue on every part. Of course, they could be aberrations. One had an RSAF Enfield front handguard and was ENGLAND stamped (re-import) and the other came slathere in cosmo from a gunshow - likely unissued. Sadly, both have been sold off a few years ago :( I did have pics, but lost them in a HDD crash :(

The 15 or so rifles in your survey are hardly representative IMHO as with that small a sample most might be refurbs - who knows?

Everything I've ever read in books (as oposed to forums) indicates the switch to park happened AFTER 1950 at CAL.

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This whole subject (date LB changed over to parkerizing from blueing) was launched after someone regurgitated a book (Stratton No4 & No5s) which contains the obvious error (LB started parkerizing in 1943-44) caused by too small a sample & the practice of unmarked Canadian FTRs.


I certainly never said that this survey COULD be DEFINATIVE, though it certainly CAN be REPRESENTATIVE.

Books are sometimes even corrected during their second printings (if I had a dime for everyone who has told me that they wrote a letter to "Cartridges of the World"...). The best explanation I've seen for books is that as soon as they are printed it leads to people actually looking into their basements for their "evidence" which they recall as disproving the printed "facts".

I'm sorry, but IMHO guns which you (or I) owned several years ago actually cannot be taken as evidence of anything. My memory is not perfect, and neither is yours.

My own understanding has grown so much in the last few years that what I saw & miss-understood or forgot about things I own or owned previously cannot be counted on today.

10 years ago I also thought that my 1950 LB was blued, then tefloned, then realized it was parkerized after I had something to compare it to.

For this "survey" I personally examined (within 3 days of each other, not several years ago):

CDN FTR parked LB 1942 MP
CDN FTR parked LB 1942 MP DCRA
CDN FTR parked LB 1943
CDN FTR parked Savage 43/44 serial
84L brit FTR matt blued? 1945
90L8 blued 1945 NIB CES
90Lx blued 1945
91L0 blued 1949
91L250x blued 1949
92L0 Blued
94L0 Parked
94L3 parked
94L9 parked
95L4 parked in cosmo (from original shipping crate)
95L8 parked

Originally Posted by Lee Enfield
editing problem solved, first post updated...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

For some reason I can't edit the original post??

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I'm afraid it's not alot of help, but here is yesterday's correspondence with Ian S.:

Quote:

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Hi from the Gold Coast,
Just back from the UK Museums Tour and Thailand where we are publishing the final edition 'Lee-Enfield Rifles'. There is some more in the Canadian chapter. Don't recall from the top of my head about the bluing re. parkerising debate. The .22 later CNo.7 production was all blued from memory? Maybe that is a clue. Long Branch production details seem scant, and it is not reliable to quote from specimens given ordnance depots or factory refits.
Sorry I can't add more,
Ian


From:
To: idskennerton@hotmail.com
Subject: question about longbranch manufacturing
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 18:41:49 -0500

Hi Ian,

Some of the Canadian Enfield collectors have been having a debate at www.milsurps.com about the timeframe in which Canadian Arsenals switched from Blued metal finish to Parkerizing.

Most everyone acknowledges that wartime No.4Mk1* Longbranches with a parkerized finish are post-war FTR. The debate centers around when in 1950 (or beyond) did Longbranch begin producing new rifles with a parkerized finish at the factory.

Some people maintain it was in the 93L block, while others think 95L block. As you know, both a 1950 serial ranges.

Do you have any information or insight which may prove useful?

Thanks in advance,
Claven2
www.milsurps.com moderator

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While Skennerton's comment about "specimens not being reliable" is true, unfortunately that is all we have to go on.

I'm going to try to get ahold of some people about an air cadet squadron which used to shoot at the local club.

They had 7 of 10 consecutive c.no7s which were dated 1953 IIRC.

What I find quite curious is that the 91L-94L0 region is so lowly populated. Of course this whole thing has lasted a total of 1 1/2 weeks.

The Savage survey on gunboards has been going what 2 years now?

Personally what I was hoping for is 2-3 95L 1950s which are blued, that would have put paid to the whole question to my mind. This has not (yet) occured.

Oh yeah, for the last 8 years or so I have totally ignored the 1950 LB as being uninteresting. I guess that has changed...:bash:

Is it possible that many rifles from the 91-94 group were shipped/used/supplied in such a manner that not too many of that group were ever sold surplus? Apart from the rifles supplied to the Belgians, what happened to the 1950 rifles? Were they primarily Cdn. issue? I could see 1950 rifles being selected for private purchase by target shooters, because the rifles would have been recent, fresh and not made at the height of wartime production. Don't know if that would be a valid quality concern, though. Of Long Branch rifles now in private hands, how many were actually released in Canada, compared with how many came back to Canada from who knows where? As far as that goes, what percentage of WW2 production LBs were actually issued to Canadian troops? It would seem that a large quantity found its way to Turkey, from the UK, in the post WW2 period.

I know for 100% certain that a number of 1950 LB's went to England. I have no idea why as the Brits had enough of their own No.4's in inventory, but I've owned one and seen many 1950 LB's that came back to Canada with the odd Brit small part or handguard on them bearing British nitro proofs and stamped "England" on the buttsocket. I don't recall any being suncorited though and I've never seen one electropencilled from an FTR...? Maybe issued to cadets or something? Or used by Canadian troops serving in the UK? Dunno... but there's more to the story of the 1950's LB than is commonly known I think.

I wonder if maybe a Brit unit or two in Korea got equipped with Canadian kit and a Canadian unit or two equipped with British kit for logistics reasons and the the respective rifles returned to the respective countries of issue with the troops?

Because the Brits paid for @ 50% of the LB facility during WWII, I believe that @ 50% of the guns (@450K) went to meet British contracts. Also I understand that Canada was in the British NATO supply chain in Western Europe.

Canada traded alot of our armament as (NATO orientated) "mutual assistance" during the '50s and early '60s in exchange for credits towards American equipment.

I suspect that a lot of them (91L-95Ls ect) ended up being sold on the commercial markets in Europe (and of course the 'States) ala the recent Italian Navy sale....
There are apparently lots of LBs in Australia as well. Lawrance Ord advertised barreled actions & stripped receivers until quite recently.

I have been told that the Dutch destroyed ALL of their enfields in the early '90s.

Between GCA '68 in the 'States & the '86 GOPA, Canadians saw a lot of "milsurp" that we would never see today.

As far as the Dutch go, there were some 74L series 32TP scopes with rings sold in the UK, apparently from rifles the Dutch scrapped.

1949 (blued) & 1950 (parkerized)
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo.../2iaebuw-2.jpg

Further to our previous discussions, my '50's receiver more closely resembles the one in the photo, rather than the '49 illustrated. Go with Parked for your survey.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tiriaq

Further to our previous discussions, my '50's receiver more closely resembles the one in the photo, rather than the '49 illustrated. Go with Parked for your survey.

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I was going to use the 92L0 that I had access to, but the owner has used a B-Square (non-gunsmithing) mount which has worn/thinned some blueing away around the ejector screw.

I'm told by those with a lot of finishing experience (and experimentation) that the "greenish" tint to the parkerizing is a product of a "chromic acid" bath upon removal from the park tanks.

I believe this was done to stabilize the reaction before/instead of using water.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

I was going to use the 92L0 that I had access to, but the owner has used a B-Square (non-gunsmithing) mount which has worn/thinned some blueing away around the ejector screw.

I'm told by those with a lot of finishing experience (and experimentation) that the "greenish" tint to the parkerizing is a product of a "chromic acid" bath upon removal from the park tanks.

I believe this was done to stabilize the reaction before/instead of using water.

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What is the correct finish for a 42 Long Branch? Would it be blue coloured bluing, black bluing? I might be getting one that's been black painted and looks terrible...

The wartime LB's seem to have a sort of soft grey finish. It's almost like parkerizing but would seem to be a type of bluing. My gunsmith told me he can duplicate it by powder blasting then bluing.

Updated to Feb 5/07

Has anyone noted the difference in the Long Branch parkerizing finishes? The early ones and FTR'd wartime rifles seem to be that green colour, I think from zinc chromate.
The later ones, like 55 or so and then the CAL FNC1 rifles seem to be grey.(see the pic from the first page, I posted I think it was a 55 or 56 LB) Seems to be a different finish, maybe different chemicals were used?



I was reading a site about parkerizing, sounds too risky to try doing yourself...

"You should use it by itself, as any Antimony Tri-chloride vapor creates absolutely permanent irrevocable damage to the lungs"

I think I'll leave the Parkerizing to the pros... :yikes:


BTW, I'm not sure why Canada didn't stamp FTR on rifles...they probably should have. Maybe they couldn't bring themselves to mar their beautiful rifles...the Brits didn't care, they could always slap another coat of Suncorite on over their plethora of stamps...

[QUOTE=Cantom;3852]Has anyone noted the difference in the Long Branch parkerizing finishes? The early ones and FTR'd wartime rifles seem to be that green colour, I think from zinc chromate.
The later ones, like 55 or so and then the CAL FNC1 rifles seem to be grey.(see the pic from the first page, I posted I think it was a 55 or 56 LB) Seems to be a different finish, maybe different chemicals were used?

QUOTE]

The greenish tint is supposed to be a reaction of the cosmoline preservative to the after parkerizing chromic acid dip which was used to neutralize the parkerizing solution.

Thats the rumour anyway.

Most home parkerizers use (much safer) boiling water to accomplish the neutralization, eliminating the green tint.

I was given the suggestion, and so I tried it, of lubing my newly parked C1 tube down with 30w motor oil and then baking it in 150 degree oven for about 20 minutes. In my opinion, it did turn a bit of a darker/greener colour. I liked the way it turned out.

After parking stuff, I always dunk it in fresh 10W30 motor oil and then towel it off. Does a good job of neutralizing the reaction and closing up the pores in the parked metal.

As for the green tint, believe it or not, if you wash those parts in varsol or alcohol, they turn grey again. I think it's just oxidized oil in the park's pores that gives the color.

I just purchased one and here is the info on it, I don't see anything that has this serial number here. A few that are close but not the same.
Ser# 95L2861
All matching numbers and in very and I mean very good shape. Now the L2 does that mean it is parkerised, because if it doesn't then this girl is.
It is a C No4 Mk 1 Long Branch 1950
Can anyone give any more insight on this?

excoelis

The "L" would be for Long Branch and the "2" would be part of the S/N. Yours falls in line with those parkerized going by the responses here. Sounds like you have a nice one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excoelis

I just purchased one and here is the info on it, I don't see anything that has this serial number here. A few that are close but not the same.
Ser# 95L2861
All matching numbers and in very and I mean very good shape. Now the L2 does that mean it is parkerised, because if it doesn't then this girl is.
It is a C No4 Mk 1 Long Branch 1950
Can anyone give any more insight on this?

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You have a fairly late production 50 marked rifle, definitely parkerized. I'd be interested to know if the barrel is stamped 51, both of mine are.(under the handguard, but don't bother taking it apart)
I have 95L36XX and 95L83XX and both are parked.
All LB's have L in the s/n.

Are you in Canada or the US?

I am in Canada, this is my first Longbranch that is .308 and the it is in immaculate shape. I will post pics later tonight. Whoever did the rebarreling on this did a very good job that is why i am trying to get more info on it. It also looks as if it was hardly used either that or taken very good care of. A very nice old lady sold it as her husband died and she didn't want any of his guns around anymore.

I wonder if your Long Branch is one of the few (about 200) that were produced in 7.62 by C.A.L.

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Originally Posted by 303Nut

I wonder if your Long Branch is one of the few (about 200) that were produced in 7.62 by C.A.L.

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I've seen a couple of those. They were produced in 7.62 for the Canadian Army. The one I saw had a C Broad Arrow on it.

Now if I am not mistaken the second last pic doesn't look like it was done right. It looks to me as if the original numbers were rubbed out adn it was re -stamped again.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_0754-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_0726-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_0702-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_0704-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_0739-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_0682-1.jpg

Very interesting pics! Looks like someone made a home made muzzle device for it...is that milled right out of the barrel or an add on?
That is indeed a DCRA conversion, note the maple leaf proof mark and 4 digit conversion number. Is the number on both bolt handle and receiver the same? Some more pics of the barrel area would be great.

All the numbers are the same, from what I understand with the barrel is that it this is a DCRA conversion and that it was probably backbored to make it more accurate. The crown is another 1.5 to 2 inches deeper than what the barrel is showing

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_0760-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_0763-1.jpg
https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...100_0710-1.jpg

LOL - Cdn Arsenals made ALOT more than 200 of these. Probably a few thousand.

You have a DCRA converted No4MkI*, that appears to have been "customized" for target shooting.

I would be willing to bet that that rifled portion of the barrel is REALLY close to 21" if the gun has been counter-bored.

I suspect that someone has tried to match a C1s ballistic performance in the No4 action.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lee Enfield

You have a DCRA converted No4MkI*, that appears to have been "customized" for target shooting.

I would be willing to bet that that rifled portion of the barrel is REALLY close to 21" if the gun has been counter-bored.

I suspect that someone has tried to match a C1s ballistic performance in the No4 action.

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Interesting..... :)

Now that make sense... :thup:

I learned something today...

Regards,
Badger

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claven2

LOL - Cdn Arsenals made ALOT more than 200 of these. Probably a few thousand.

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Ian Skennerton's LES says that a l,000 of these rifles were ordered and that only about 200 were made because of the action body being stressed by the 7.62 cartridge. His new book may give different figures on the production.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 303Nut

Ian Skennerton's LES says that a l,000 of these rifles were ordered and that only about 200 were made because of the action body being stressed by the 7.62 cartridge. His new book may give different figures on the production.

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Well, I don't recall Skennerton claiming that only 200 DRCA 7.62 conversions were made. I know for a 100% FACT, however, that such info would be inaccurate. I've seen over 20 of these personally, and the serial ranged from low 2 digits up to at least the 2500 range on the examples I have seen.

Bear in mind, these were built for all DCRA affiliated clubs that could pay for the conversion, not just Connaught.

Perhaps the military ordered only 200 for troop trials, but this has little to do with the effort to build target rifles.

There's one at Gunco right now with a serial number into the 1000 range. Clearly higher than serial number "200". Also note the conversion serial of the above rifle is 1253.

Claven- Maybe he's refering to the ones that were actually made for the army. Not DCRA conversions. I've seen one at a gun show. Similar but different.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Claven2

Well, I don't recall Skennerton claiming that only 200 DRCA 7.62 conversions were made. I know for a 100% FACT, however, that such info would be inaccurate. I've seen over 20 of these personally, and the serial ranged from low 2 digits up to at least the 2500 range on the examples I have seen.

Bear in mind, these were built for all DCRA affiliated clubs that could pay for the conversion, not just Connaught.

Perhaps the military ordered only 200 for troop trials, but this has little to do with the effort to build target rifles.

There's one at Gunco right now with a serial number into the 1000 range. Clearly higher than serial number "200". Also note the conversion serial of the above rifle is 1253.

---

I had one in the high 19xx range, which I flogged some time ago. :thup:

IIRC I also had one in the 002x range:madsmile:

"whats'is name"??? in Saskatchewan? was compiling a list of DCRA conversion numbers IIRC

I just picked up a 1950 Long Branch. The serial number is 96L0012. It doesn't look blued so I'll assume it's parkerized. I haven't taken it apart yet. I'll fill in the rest once I do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David1974

I just picked up a 1950 Long Branch. The serial number is 96L0012. It doesn't look blued so I'll assume it's parkerized. I haven't taken it apart yet. I'll fill in the rest once I do.

---

That's a pretty high serial number, very late production. Is the parkerizing kind of blackish vs greenish?
Is it one of the batch of unissued ones that were around a few years ago? All original?
I think you'd find if you took the handguard off that the barrel might be stamped 51, which IMHO means that's when it was made.

The parkerization is blackish. Once i get it back home i'll have it apart and have pictures. As far as I can tell it's all original except the magazine, which has the canadian arsenal proof but doesn't have a serial number.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David1974

The parkerization is blackish. Once i get it back home i'll have it apart and have pictures. As far as I can tell it's all original except the magazine, which has the canadian arsenal proof but doesn't have a serial number.

---

The magazines are not usually numbered.
Did you find this in Canada or the US?

Now that I have the rifle under much much better light... The parkerization is green, very green.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David1974

Now that I have the rifle under much much better light... The parkerization is green, very green.

---

I've seen green ones and I've seen black ones...both appear to be completely correct.

Here are several pics of the rifle. This will give you an idea of the parkerisation. Cantom, I picked this rifle up in Canada ( around Barrie ). Also as you guessed the barrel is stamped '51'. Note the bolt stem. It has the arsenal proof but no serial number. Is this a replacement bolt? Speaking of the arsenal proofs, I think every single part on this rifle has a proof stamp on it... literally. I think every part except the safety spring has a arsenal stamp.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by David1974

Here are several pics of the rifle. This will give you an idea of the parkerisation. Cantom, I picked this rifle up in Canada ( around Barrie ). Also as you guessed the barrel is stamped '51'. Note the bolt stem. It has the arsenal proof but no serial number. Is this a replacement bolt? Speaking of the arsenal proofs, I think every single part on this rifle has a proof stamp on it... literally. I think every part except the safety spring has a arsenal stamp.

---

Nice- it's a greeny for sure...51 dated bbl like mine. Not sure how much higher the numbers go, 96L is very high.

I’d like to bring this one back up to the top. Lots of very useful information for new collectors and perhaps we can get a few new numbers added from people who haven’t seen this yet. Also Lee Enfield if I could trouble you to bring it up to date that would be great.
Would the membership like to see this made a sticky?

Good move, No4MkI(T). As it's a bonafide survey, perhaps it should be a sticky. Also, this thread predates my joining this forum, and perhaps many other's also.

The only info I could add refers to the '51 barrel date. Both my 95L4XXX and 22LXXXX rearsenal carry '51 barrels. Both are park'd. Because of a long ago debate about LB/CA rearsenals the barrel date may be more important than the serial number.

Brad

Quote:

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Originally Posted by No4Mk1(T)

I’d like to bring this one back up to the top. Lots of very useful information for new collectors and perhaps we can get a few new numbers added from people who haven’t seen this yet. Also Lee Enfield if I could trouble you to bring it up to date that would be great.
Would the membership like to see this made a sticky?

---

If you have a 1950 dated Long Branch, I need some information please:

1. what are the first 3 digets of the serial #? eg.) 91L6
2. Is the action blued or parkerized?
3. what is the barrel date? ( 2 digets found on the knox-form) eg.) '50
4. is the barrel parkerized or blued?
5. is the bolt parkerized or blued?
6. is the striker parkerized or blued?

Thank You for your help.

I'm trying to pin down when LB switched to parkerizing from bluing.
I've been telling people for years that they switched early in 1950, but have come across info indicating a later date of change-over.

Unfortunately my sample is quite small, so I'm appealing to everyone for info.
*91L0013, 1949 all blued* earliest known 1949??
*91L250x, 1949 all blued*
*91L6, blued, 49, blued, blued, blued*

BA57*** (renumbered but) blued, barrel 50, blued, blued, blued
91L60xx, Action blued, Barrel date '50, Barrel blued, Bolt blued, Striker blued
91L6, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued
91L7, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued
91L7, ?????
91L8, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued
92L0, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued (3x)
93L0, Blued, ?, ?, ?, ?
93L1, parked, ?, ?, ?, ?
93L16, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued
93L2, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued (x2)
93L4, blued, '50, blued, blued, blued (x2)
93L45, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked
93L52, parked, '50, parked, blued, parked
93L67, parked, '50, parked, blued, parked
93L6, parked, ?, parked, parked, blued
93Lx, Blued, ?, ?, ?, ?
94L0, parked, ?, parked, parked, blued
94L0, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked
94L0, park, '50, park, park, park
94L3, parked, '50, parked, blued, parked
94L5, blued, '50, parked, blued, blued
94L8, parked, '51, parked, blued, blued
94L9, parked, '51, parked, parked, parked
95L1, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked
95L1, parked, '51, parked, parked, parked
95L4, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked (1 of 10 consecutive from sealed case)
95L4, parked, ?, ?, ?, ?
95L75, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked
95L78, parked, '51, parked, parked, parked
95L8, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked
95L8, parked, 50, parked, parked, parked
95L9, parked, '51, parked, parked, parked
95Lx, parked, '51, parked, blued, blued
96L00xx, parked, ?, parked, parked, parked
96L0012, parked, '51, parked, parked, parked
96L0013 ~ highest # seen (can no longer find photo 8.06.09)

If you don't want to post openly, you could PM me.

Thanks to everyone who's helped

added info to CGN message 73
__________________

I imported 165 1950 LB C No.4's in 2001. The finish changed to Parkerizing in the 93L serial range with a mixture of Parkerized and blue small parts. Most are gone now but I still have a few. The latest serial number I have in blue is 93L3983. The earliest I have left in Parkerized is 93L4960. If I remember correctly, we got a bit closer to pin pointing the changeover back on the old British Guns Forum but the information is long gone. I hope this helps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

I imported 165 1950 LB C No.4's in 2001. The finish changed to Parkerizing in the 93L serial range with a mixture of Parkerized and blue small parts. Most are gone now but I still have a few. The latest serial number I have in blue is 93L3983. The earliest I have left in Parkerized is 93L4960. If I remember correctly, we got a bit closer to pin pointing the changeover back on the old British Guns Forum but the information is long gone. I hope this helps.

---

Brian do you remember if you had any into the 96L range and if so how high?

Hang on a sec and I'll look in my dealers register. I do remember that there were no 96L rifles. I've never seen one that high and the only one higher I've had was a 1956 body but it was a replacement numbered with a 77L, 1944 serial number. Here you go, (thank God they're in order!). The highest serial number I had in that batch was 95L9950.

By the way, I still have about 20 left if anyone you know wants one. The woodwork on all needs a little TLC from rough storage but the metal of all is excellent inside and out.

See you at the 'knob!
:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

Hang on a sec and I'll look in my dealers register. I do remember that there were no 96L rifles. I've never seen one that high and the only one higher I've had was a 1956 body but it was a replacement numbered with a 77L, 1944 serial number. Here you go, (thank God they're in order!). The highest serial number I had in that batch was 95L9950.

By the way, I still have about 20 left if anyone you know wants one. The woodwork on all needs a little TLC from rough storage but the metal of all is excellent inside and out.

---

1. what are the first 3 digets of the serial #? eg.) 94L8
2. Is the action blued or parkerized? Blued
3. what is the barrel date? ( 2 digets found on the knox-form) eg.) I haven't removed the wood and don't plan to unless something needs repair
4. is the barrel parkerized or blued? Blued
5. is the bolt parkerized or blued? Blued
6. is the striker parkerized or blued? Blued

1. what are the first 3 digets of the serial #? eg.) 95L2240

2. Is the action blued or parkerized? Parkerized

3. what is the barrel date? ( 2 digets found on the knox-form) eg.) '51

4. is the barrel parkerized or blued? Parkerized

5. is the bolt parkerized or blued? Parkerized

6. is the striker parkerized or blued? Parkerized

Serial number 95L10xx, barrel - 51.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC09833-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC09837-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC09839-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC09840-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC09835-1.jpg

1. 94L8, 2. parked 3. unknown, 4. parked, 5. parked, 6. blued

This is CAI import that is vitually unfired. The wood and metal finish are striking. Not sure where to find the barrel date but do not want to remove the stock to do it. Happy to answer any questions you may have. Regards...:cheers:

The question of LB rifles with British parts and British rifles with LB parts is easily explianed due to the fact that in Korea and certainly to my knowledge in Germany, UK and Canadian Ordnance, including ammunition stockpiles were pooled. As a result No4 rifles, Brens etc weaponry would be sent out regardless of unit from the centralised pooled storage facility at HAMM. In the days of the L1A1 it didn't seem to happen as much but you would often see XXL Canadian L1A1 rifles in the UK system. Certainly, we had a list of interchangeable Sterling SMG parts that came from UK stocks

The main Base Workshop was at Wetter and there were Canadian and Brit Armourers there, all doing the same job and working happily alongside each other. In fact one Canadian REME Armourer named 'Elmer' Brown (his dad was a Major in the PPCLI as I seem to remember) married an English girl.

The same happened in Malaya and elsewhere in that theatre with L1A1's where stocks were issued from pooled stores so whether you had an AD610- or a UE61A rifle was a matter of luck. We knew when NZ Sterling SMG's were issued because they had odd serial numbers commencing NZ! Unluckily for the Kiwis, they got issued with some of the rubbish UF59A Fazakerley guns!

Sorry to ramble on a bit but just a few thoughts about....er,..... what was it now?

1. 93L5 2. Park 3. '50 4. Park 5. Park 6. Blue Import marked from Canada

93L3, blued, 50, blued, blued, blued

94L7089
body-p, bbl-p (1 over 50 on side of knox form), bolt-b, cocking piece-b, striker-b, bolt head #0-b, safety-b, trigger-b, butt plate-b, mag- brown(p?) w/ no S/N but "CA" marked, front h/g "CCM" w/reinforcements in wood and w/ cutout for hinged band.

ETA rear band-b, mid band-p, front band-b, fore sight protector-b, Fr sight- +.09, fabbed trigger guard-b, rear sight C Mk3-b, swivels-b, buttplate- zamak

92L3 blued, 50, blued, blued, blued

I've had it for ten years, shot it once, still has taped and printed S/N on the butt from its service time, S/N 95L8061, receiver & Knox dated 1950, all parked.

My first post on this forum. I have one for you and it sounds like what you are looking for:

1. 95L3279 2. Blue 3. '51 4. Blue 5. Blue 6. Blue

The receiver is stamped 1950. This is obviously a late manufactured rifle and is in almost as-new condition. It currently resides in Brisbane Australia.

Very similar to ButchG7's rifle in appearance except mine has the Singer sight.

It's highly unlikely that any of those items are blued on that rifle. The green park is very subtle, you almost have to hold it side by side with a blued rifle to see it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aus-hunter

My first post on this forum. I have one for you and it sounds like what you are looking for:

1. 95L3279 2. Blue 3. '51 4. Blue 5. Blue 6. Blue

The receiver is stamped 1950. This is obviously a late manufactured rifle and is in almost as-new condition. It currently resides in Brisbane Australia.

Very similar to ButchG7's rifle in appearance except mine has the Singer sight.

---

Sorry mate, as unlikely as it may seem, Blue is Blue. This rifle is blued a very dark blue with no green tinge at all. If you look at the photo above my post - that is identical to my rifle. There are no parked parts on my rifle. So guys here is one late built rifle which is all blued.

No problem mate. BTW, found this pic in my files.


https://www.milsurps.com/images/imported/deleted.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aus-hunter

Sorry mate, as unlikely as it may seem, Blue is Blue. This rifle is blued a very dark blue with no green tinge at all. If you look at the photo above my post - that is identical to my rifle. There are no parked parts on my rifle. So guys here is one late built rifle which is all blued.

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Thanks Cantom - I actually had a chance to put my rifle next to a parkerized one just the other day.

My rifle is that real blue-black of the upper rifle in your photo. The metalwork on mine is really well finished and the bolt fit is amazing. The Mk 1 sight and all screw heads looks factory new.

There are a few very minor and character-building dings on the wood but otherwise it shows very minimal signs of use.

I will try to put some photos up when I can get hold of a good camera.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aus-hunter

Thanks Cantom - I actually had a chance to put my rifle next to a parkerized one just the other day.

My rifle is that real blue-black of the upper rifle in your photo. The metalwork on mine is really well finished and the bolt fit is amazing. The Mk 1 sight and all screw heads looks factory new.

There are a few very minor and character-building dings on the wood but otherwise it shows very minimal signs of use.

I will try to put some photos up when I can get hold of a good camera.

---

Well, like anyone else, I can guess.

We know that Canadian Arsenals switched over to parkerizing some time in 1950-51, around the 93L and up s/n range. It's unlikely that they picked one rifle near the end of production to blue...

Perhaps over the years, someone in Australia didn't like that bilious green parkerizing and had it blued!

It's not the nicest colour really...:)

I have now shown this rifle to many people and the consensus is that it is very dark parkerizing on the action and barrel, and blued safety catch and bolt handle.

It is a hard call to make though because it is an almost black finish.
This rifle has a 1950 action and a 1951 barrel and it is just conceivable it was made up of what's left towards the end of the run maybe? I fired this rifle at the range today and it is a tack-holer with 3 shots touching at 100m.

cantom, I just emailed you some pics of my 94L1xxx, 1950 Long Branch No4 MkI*. It has a beautiful dark blue on all of its metal, other than the magazine. It still has cosmo on it and other than a few tiny storage dings, is minty. That makes it a bit later than 93L. It could also mean that the stamped dates on the rifles don't really coincide with assembly. I suspect just about any date after 1945 could be found with either parkerising or blue. Just luck of the draw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bearhunter

cantom, I just emailed you some pics of my 94L1xxx, 1950 Long Branch No4 MkI*. It has a beautiful dark blue on all of its metal, other than the magazine. It still has cosmo on it and other than a few tiny storage dings, is minty. That makes it a bit later than 93L. It could also mean that the stamped dates on the rifles don't really coincide with assembly. I suspect just about any date after 1945 could be found with either parkerising or blue. Just luck of the draw.

---

Your rifle Bearhunter is a very standard 1950 LB late production done in the standard greenish park. (shown are the 4 pics of it he just sent me by email)

I've had Long Branch rifles that I didn't even realize were parked, till I suddenly put it beside a blued rifle and it stood out! It can be very subtle.

I also had an early 1950 and a 1949 that were definitely factory blued. There's a huge difference.

My similar like new 1950 also shot very well, with a very tight chamber- the brass barely expanded when fired, unlike many .303's with their extremely generous chamber dimensions.

Aushunter- if you wish to send me some good clear pics showing the finish in good light, I can also post em if you like.

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93L093x all blued, 50 barrel.

Parkerised, un-numbered LB magazine

1950 LB:
Serial number 92L77xx
Barrel 1950
Action Blued
Bolt blued
Barrel blued
Striker blued.

Ed

[QUOTE=Lee Enfield;2093]If you have a 1950 dated Long Branch, I need some information please:

1. what are the first 3 digets of the serial #? eg.) 91L6 93L2
2. Is the action blued or parkerized? blued
3. what is the barrel date? ( 2 digets found on the knox-form) eg.) '50 '50
4. is the barrel parkerized or blued? Blued
5. is the bolt parkerized or blued? Blued
6. is the striker parkerized or blued? Blued
Thank You for your help.

John in Indiana

1) (1950) serial No 92L89**

2) Blued

3) Blued (date Unsure, will update later)

4) Blued

5) Blued

6) Blued

Hi,
My first post.
I just picked up a 1950 LB. s/n 91L8***
1950 barrel, all blued except the mag which is park. It is not numbered. Should the correct mag. be numbered to match on these rifles?
Mike

Ok, I hope this isn't dropping a fly in the ointment but I'm looking at my 1950 No4 Mk1* and the finish is entirely oil baked. It's not blued or parked. It the technique of heating a gun part and then quenching in an oil bath and the oil oxidizes onto the metal and forms a protective coating. The finish is a satiny black. Serial number 92L9862.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MAPART

Hi,
My first post.
I just picked up a 1950 LB. s/n 91L8***
1950 barrel, all blued except the mag which is park. It is not numbered. Should the correct mag. be numbered to match on these rifles?
Mike

---

No LB did not serial number mags.

I'd suggest that any LB mag after 1942 would be user rather than factory marked.

LB stopped numbering forends during 1943, if mags were serialed, it stopped at or before the same period.

Who has rifle number 95L3195?
I've got your mag.

92L8xxx blued, 50, blued, blued, blued. Canadian Army marks. Mint.

On my 1950 dated Longbranch No4 MKI* :

93L5XXX

Everything is blued, no parkerization at all. I have not removed the handguard to check the barrel date, but the receiver & bolt match and are original (no previous # line outs).

1950 Long Branch No4 MK1*

92L5008 all blued , barrel '50 blued

91L8311 all matching, even LB mag (Greek?), everthing blued; 50 barrel.

3mctoledo: You can tell the Greek rifles, the s/n is on the mag minus the L.