Martini Enfield fake or authentic

[arrowup42]

There is a local auction that listed a Martini Enfield with the following description:

"Antique single shot lever action carbine dated 1875. Possibly an arsenal conversion from .450/577 to, or made originally in, .303 British. 25” barrel. Original sights. Fair bore with strong rifling. Steel cleaning rod. Excellent action. One screw missing in front of the trigger guard. Worn mostly gray/brown metal shows dings and file marks. Good hand guard and forearm have dings and cracks. Original swivels. Very good straight grip stock has a unit number and the original metal butt plate."

Picture:





I was excited when I first saw it but then realized this could be a Khyber Pass rifle. The barrel length, lack of .303 conversion stamps, and filing marks makes me cringe. Unfortunately I'll have to wait a while before I can see it in person to confirm this. In the mean time it would be greatly appreciated if anyone who has any knowledge of Martini Enfields could give their opinion. Thanks!

Information

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[Patrick Chadwick]

Caution! The trigger looks rough to me. A genuine trigger has a beautiful sweep, which I have never seen accurately duplicated on a K-P rifle. And when did you last see filing marks on a genuine Enfield or M-H? One the other hand, I saw enough K-P Martini-Henry's to arm a battalion before I found a genuine one. The fakes outnumber the real ones. I would not advise buying it on the strength of that photo.

Ask for a close-up of the system, showing the markings (which will also show the trigger).

---------- Post added at 04:56 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 PM ----------

unit number

Says who? Who buys all those sets of number and letter stamps on the online auctions? If you get to handle it, take a watchmaker's eyeglass with you and check whether the numbers have been freshly stamped over an old wood surface. Take off the handguard at least, if not the entire fore-end, and look for genuine barrel markings underneath the wood, where fakers usually do not take the trouble.

The sharpest markings I ever saw on an M-H were fake - they had been photo-etched. Quite simply too good to be true!

Use your eyes, assisted by an eyeglass, and shut your ears to any stories told by the seller.

Sorry if this sounds negative, but the M-H family is possibly one of the most frequently faked types on the market. And a search is made more difficult by the "bitsas" that actually have some original parts built in.

P.S: why are there what appear to be 2 transverse rivets going through the wood just in front of the action?

[arrowup42]

Patrick, I totally agree with you and don't take your advice negatively. This auction house is a family run business in Amish country and is my "go to" place. However, they are not firearm specialists in any way. I usually bring subject books, gauges, etc. to check the firearms myself during their preview days and got a few good deals on some items. I've seen Martini's at their auctions before that were blatant Khyber Pass copies (one looked very similar to this rifle and the "N" in Enfield was backwards) but others that were legitimate British made rifles. Yesterday I called and one employee said it had many markings but told me to call back during their preview days to get exact details. I'm very skeptical about this rifle. Thanks for your input! I always try to get second opinions on rifles I don't know too much about.

Cheers,
Travis

[Patrick Chadwick]

This is the kind of thing you should look for:

Attachment 49640

Receiver markings perfectly symmetrically spaced - applied with the help of a jig, never freehand!

Trigger with smooth tapering curve and "anti-slip" (???) grooves, inspector's stamp - crown over E over the inspector's number.

Attachment 49639

Note the slight distortion of the leading edge caused by application of the stamp, presumably before the trigger was hardened. BTW, on the other side of the trigger there is a small WD arrow as well. Compare the "style" of this trigger with the one in the auction photo, and you will understand my caution.

Barrel inspection marks.

Attachment 49638

These are often faked. But there will be a lot more beneath the barrel. I did not want to dismantle my M-H, so these are photos of the barrel on my Snider. More inspector's marks, barrel date, material, factory batch number (not the service number) etc.

Attachment 49641 Attachment 49642

The M-H will look similar underneath - if genuine!

[Aragorn243]

The rifle was a fake. I told them it was a fake and they sold it as original anyway. This might be in Amish country but this is the gun auction from hell. Lettering was backwards and upside down.

People at this auction are nuts. Pay way to much. Any other auction in the area is fine but these guys get top dollar because it's the largest in the area. 91/30 refurbs brought $300+ when they were selling for $79 at Dunhams.

[Aragorn243]

Yesterday when I posted I was on a laptop that I can't type on so I kept it short. I've been going to this auction for over 20 years and rarely buy any firearms here. The prices are simply out of sight, well above what they should be in most instances. That's not to say that a bargain can't be found but they are not common. I've picked up maybe a half dozen rifles over the last 4 or 5 years here, paid too much for them twice but they were not out of sight and I wanted it. The other four I got decent deals on as for once, no on else seemed to want that particular rifle. I have lost dozens and dozens where I admit I was looking for a good deal but they just went ahead and went from good deal to about right to over priced to downright more money than sense idiots.

I was disappointed with them with this particular rifle. I knew it was a fake within a few seconds of picking it up. It was a very good Kyber Pass but that is what it was. I notified them of this and their reply was, "We let the individual purchasers decide for themselves if it is real or not". To me that's fraud as these guys do know enough to put very good descriptions in their sales listings. They often have more details on some guns than I'm aware of. They make note if it has an incorrect sight, bolt, etc and yet on this they left the backwards, upside down lettering go unanswered.

So buyer beware I guess. Amish Country or not, the almighty dollar still holds sway over a lot of people. The rifle in question sold for well over $300 if I'm not mistaken. I don't think a Kyber is worth that much by any stretch.

[Ridolpho]

Patrick/ Aragorn: Not at all doubting what you guys say but I'm intrigued by the thought of medieval craftsman managing to turn out a piece as complex as a Martini body. How do they do it? I wonder if a lot of the Kyhber pass specials aren't built around genuine actions with certain minor bits like triggers, barrel bands, etc, crafted to finish it off. Lots of original actions were scrubbed of markings at factory overhaul (like my Citadel Martini Enfield) and I can see the lads in the Pass attempting to put on markings to make it (to them) more real in appearance. My Citadel, incidentally, was sold to me dirt cheap $300.00) as the owner thought it was a K-P! I'm watching a claimed K-P for sale on a Canadian site right now that I suspect may be genuine and am sorely tempted to take a gamble and buy it.

Ridolpho

[Patrick Chadwick]

but I'm intrigued by the thought of medieval craftsman managing to turn out a piece as complex as a Martini body. How do they do it?

I am also intrigued, sometimes astonished.

... I wonder if a lot of the Kyhber pass specials aren't built around genuine actions with certain minor bits like triggers, barrel bands, etc, crafted to finish it off.

Yes. I think you may assume that nothing gets thrown away, and every bit of any (for us) scrap Enfields, Martinis etc has long since been re-used. This makes it extremely hazardous to buy a M-H on the basis of photos. The bits shown in the photos may be original. Other bits that are not visible may be hand-filed from scrap iron. So a genuine-looking receiver body, from a rusted-out rifle, may have the most awful (and dangerous) parts inside.

[Calif-Steve]

The Kyber Pass area has been making decent/Ok guns for 150(?) years. The British bought a pile of SMLE's in WWII for local issue. They make the heavy Russian .51 cal MG's. But the older MH's are indeed older and mostly poor/bar repos. The English Arsenals that made them did beautiful work and they stand on their own merits. No letters backwards and everything straight and proper. This auction house will get sued if they knowingly sold a fake. The gun will not hold up to .303 firing. Good luck to all involved.